Movies: Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it! (SPOILERS) | Part II

[Tawnos]

You dont have to imagine it.

 

[johnjm22]

People like the idea of neutrality, but not so much what it really would mean to enact it.

They would like it if it was done well.

I disliked the film as much as anyone, but I agree with much of what Johnson was trying to do. He just failed in the execution.

 

[Tawnos]

Being impulsive doesn't justify one standing over a sleeping kid with a drawn weapon. That's not something I'd classify as an impulse. That's just cowardly, and stupid.

If Luke had been pushed to that point, it would have been Snoke's careful manipulation of Kylo, and the result of something that happened over a long period of time. It's sorta explained in the movie as well (if I remember right, only seen it once), where they say that Kylo had started influencing the other kids.

So in reality it's not an impulsive thing. It shouldn't have been.

I can't imagine a scenario where Luke would stand over the sleeping form of his nephew, not just any kid, but his nephew, with a drawn weapon. He would confront him first. He would try to save him. Perhaps, if he was convinced Kylo was bad and there was no changing that he'd resort to killing him but it sure as hell wouldn't be in his sleep, and it wouldn't be an impulsive thing. That's ridiculous.

You don't impulsively stand over the sleeping form of a family member with a drawn weapon. That really makes no sense, jedi or not, force or not.

I read this post and had a thought earlier today, spawned by your use of the word ridiculous: your ridiculous search for rational reasons why somebody does *something irrational* is ridiculous.

People do irrational crap all the time, much of it without impact or consequence. No one is saying Luke was in his right mind in that moment, but why should that be a prerequisite to doing something irrational? Also, Luke had sensed the Dark Side growing in Ben for a while. He says so. The worry of it grew in him until he did something stupid. And every single day people fail or refuse to confront family members about things they should. That's not unrealistic either.

You remember wrong, and your only seeing this movie once doesn't give you a lot of credibility to discuss it in the kind of depth you're attempting to. Watch it again and do so with an open mind to give it a second chance. You still might not like it, but at least you'll be able to talk about it accurately.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I read this post and had a thought earlier today, spawned by your use of the word ridiculous: your ridiculous search for rational reasons why somebody does *something irrational* is ridiculous.

People do irrational crap all the time, much of it without impact or consequence. No one is saying Luke was in his right mind in that moment, but why should that be a prerequisite to doing something irrational? Also, Luke had sensed the Dark Side growing in Ben for a while. He says so. The worry of it grew in him until he did something stupid. And every single day people fail or refuse to confront family members about things they should. That's not unrealistic either.

You remember wrong, and your only seeing this movie once doesn't give you a lot of credibility to discuss it in the kind of depth you're attempting to. Watch it again and do so with an open mind to give it a second chance. You still might not like it, but at least you'll be able to talk about it accurately.

So backstory, character development, behavioral consistency, in other words all the basics of storytelling should go out the window because people do dumb things.

Now any character can do anything anytime and the excuse is that people do dumb things all the time. I would not enjoy watching such movies. Whatya know, I actually didn't. It was called TLJ.

 

[Tawnos]

So backstory, character development, behavioral consistency, in other words all the basics of storytelling should go out the window because people do dumb things.

Now any character can do anything anytime and the excuse is that people do dumb things all the time. I would not enjoy watching such movies. Whatya know, I actually didn't. It was called TLJ.

That isnt what I said. A couple of posts back, i also said that we could have used flashbacks showing Luke and young Ben beyond just that moment. The other poster was saying that people dont do what Luke did and I disagree with that. He was trying to apply logic to it, which doesnt work because of the very nature of the action

Behavioral consistency isnt really important though, since its decades between this and our last look at Luke, which took place during a life altering event as it was.

 

[Little Psycho]

I've read that some people will only accept Kylo's redemption is if he sacrifices himself in the name of good. Like haven't we had enough Skywalkers die? He's the last Skywalker remaining (they have no choice but to kill off Leia) It's repetitive at this point.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I read this post and had a thought earlier today, spawned by your use of the word ridiculous: your ridiculous search for rational reasons why somebody does *something irrational* is ridiculous.

People do irrational crap all the time, much of it without impact or consequence. No one is saying Luke was in his right mind in that moment, but why should that be a prerequisite to doing something irrational? Also, Luke had sensed the Dark Side growing in Ben for a while. He says so. The worry of it grew in him until he did something stupid. And every single day people fail or refuse to confront family members about things they should. That's not unrealistic either.

You remember wrong, and your only seeing this movie once doesn't give you a lot of credibility to discuss it in the kind of depth you're attempting to. Watch it again and do so with an open mind to give it a second chance. You still might not like it, but at least you'll be able to talk about it accurately.

How many times have you seen the movie? It seems like you may have become inured to the film's shortcomings.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

That isnt what I said. A couple of posts back, i also said that we could have used flashbacks showing Luke and young Ben beyond just that moment. The other poster was saying that people dont do what Luke did and I disagree with that. He was trying to apply logic to it, which doesnt work because of the very nature of the action

Behavioral consistency isnt really important though, since its decades between this and our last look at Luke, which took place during a life altering event as it was.

I don't get this "life altering event".

Everything was going swimmingly. The Sith was defeated. He saved his Dad's soul. Everyone was happy. Luke started a new temple and was teaching a new generation of Jedi's.

Then he finds out that his nephew (son of his only sister and best friend) might be influenced by the dark side. So instead of trying to save him, or at the very least have a chat with him about it, or talk to his parents, this happy, successful hero decides to suddenly kill the only heir to their bloodline...in his sleep...like a coward.

Where is this life altering event? I just see pure plot manipulation with no regard to any type of consistent storytelling. That is bad B-movie stuff.

 

[Tawnos]

How many times have you seen the movie? It seems like you may have become inured to the film's shortcomings.

I liked it the first time I saw it. I liked it more the second time I saw it. I think I’ve only watched it one more time since it was available digitally fairly recently.

I’m well aware of its flaws, but most of them aren’t all that different from other Star Wars movie flaws, including the OT so they don’t bother me much.

I don't get this "life altering event".

Everything was going swimmingly. The Sith was defeated. He saved his Dad's soul. Everyone was happy. Luke started a new temple and was teaching a new generation of Jedi's.

Then he finds out that his nephew (son of his only sister and best friend) might be influenced by the dark side. So instead of trying to save him, or at the very least have a chat with him about it, or talk to his parents, this happy, successful hero decides to suddenly kill the only heir to their bloodline...in his sleep...like a coward.

Where is this life altering event? I just see pure plot manipulation with no regard to any type of consistent storytelling. That is bad B-movie stuff.

The entire throne room portion of RotJ is a life altering event. Redeeming his father only to have him die is a devastating event. And physically, being electrocuted like that has long term effects (which is gone into in the old EU). The idea that the end of RotJ is a happily ever after ending is mistaken, at this point. Sure, it could have been left that way... but any continuation of the story beyond that point was bound to not be so rosy. When the EU did it, at one point Luke even turns to the Dark Side for a bit. Don’t know why you’d make the assumption that he was just this happy person after RotJ.

Also, Luke didn’t find out that Ben *might* be influenced by the Dark Side. He realized that the Dark Side *had* grown strong in him. What you want him to do... that’s exactly what Luke had decided to do. As I said, the guy is impulsive, just like his parents. His impulse was to kill Ben, but then he thought better of it and decided to try to stop the turn.

 

[ImporterExporter]

HAHAHAHA!

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I don't get why people expect Holdo to tell Poe the escape plan. Military intelligence isn't shared with every low level member and if there is one person you do not want to be in on a good plan its Poe

 

[Osprey]

I don't get why people expect Holdo to tell Poe the escape plan. Military intelligence isn't shared with every low level member and if there is one person you do not want to be in on a good plan its Poe

I think that there are better ways of handling it than Holdo chose. She could've told him privately that there was a plan, but not given him any details. That, alone, might've been enough to dissuade him from going renegade. She could've also given him something to do, assigned an escort to him or had him monitored, to prevent him from doing anything rash. Instead, she deliberately deceived him, saw that he was very upset and dismissed him. She should've known that a person of his character and history wasn't going to sit around and follow orders and should've handled him much more carefully. In the real military, you wouldn't expect such a loose cannon to be treated with kid gloves--you'd discharge him or throw him into a military prison--but this is a crisis situation (a war with very few good guys left) and Poe is their best pilot and a charismatic individual that others will follow, so Holdo needs to be smart and give him more consideration (either including him in the loop or keeping an eye on him).

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I think that there are better ways of handling it than Holdo chose. She could've told him privately that there was a plan, but not given him any details. That, alone, might've been enough to dissuade him from going renegade. She could've also given him something to do, assigned an escort to him or had him monitored, to prevent him from doing anything rash. Instead, she deliberately deceived him, saw that he was very upset and dismissed him. She should've known that a person of his character and history wasn't going to sit around and follow orders and should've handled him much more carefully. In the real military, you wouldn't expect such a loose cannon to be treated with kid gloves--you'd discharge him or throw him into a military prison--but this is a crisis situation (a war with very few good guys left) and Poe is their best pilot and a charismatic individual that others will follow, so Holdo needs to be smart and give him more consideration (either including him in the loop or keeping an eye on him).

I see what you are saying but she was giving him what he deserves, the silent treatment. It drove him crazy but unfortunately for viewers it drove him to mutiny...because he was no longer involved with getting his friends killed he mutinied...commit an act punishable by death for all those involved because he was shamed. Great guy

 

[Moon Man]

I see what you are saying but she was giving him what he deserves, the silent treatment. It drove him crazy but unfortunately for viewers it drove him to mutiny...because he was no longer involved with getting his friends killed he mutinied...commit an act punishable by death for all those involved because he was shamed. Great guy

What a horrible main character for a Star Wars trilogy. All of these new characters are dreadful.

 

[Pilky01]

I see what you are saying but she was giving him what he deserves, the silent treatment. It drove him crazy but unfortunately for viewers it drove him to mutiny...because he was no longer involved with getting his friends killed he mutinied...commit an act punishable by death for all those involved because he was shamed. Great guy

And 20 minutes later he was appointed the leader of the entire resistance.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I liked it the first time I saw it. I liked it more the second time I saw it. I think I’ve only watched it one more time since it was available digitally fairly recently.

I’m well aware of its flaws, but most of them aren’t all that different from other Star Wars movie flaws, including the OT so they don’t bother me much.



The entire throne room portion of RotJ is a life altering event. Redeeming his father only to have him die is a devastating event. And physically, being electrocuted like that has long term effects (which is gone into in the old EU). The idea that the end of RotJ is a happily ever after ending is mistaken, at this point. Sure, it could have been left that way... but any continuation of the story beyond that point was bound to not be so rosy. When the EU did it, at one point Luke even turns to the Dark Side for a bit. Don’t know why you’d make the assumption that he was just this happy person after RotJ.

Also, Luke didn’t find out that Ben *might* be influenced by the Dark Side. He realized that the Dark Side *had* grown strong in him. What you want him to do... that’s exactly what Luke had decided to do. As I said, the guy is impulsive, just like his parents. His impulse was to kill Ben, but then he thought better of it and decided to try to stop the turn.

Now its winning against the Sith that is a devastating event? Ya, he looked devastated. Now its the lightning that damaged him? I don't even know what to say anymore. It's getting kind of ridiculous.

I know. Impulsive, does dumb things. Your argument can be used to defend every bad decision any character has ever done in any crappy B, C, or D movie. So we are right back where we started. Pure lazy plot manipulation. No wonder TLJ is a B-movie.

 

[Moon Man]

Now its winning against the Sith that is a devastating event? Ya, he looked devastated. Now its the lightning that damaged him? I don't even know what to say anymore. It's getting kind of ridiculous.

I know. Impulsive, does dumb things. Your argument can be used to defend every bad decision any character has ever done in any crappy B, C, or D movie. So we are right back where we started. Pure lazy plot manipulation. No wonder TLJ is a B-movie.

As a Star Wars movie it’s a definite Z-movie in my opinion. As a stand alone movie, the special effects probably bring it up to a G.

Edit: This is if A,B, C, and D are all a passing grade.

 

[Tawnos]

Now its winning against the Sith that is a devastating event? Ya, he looked devastated. Now its the lightning that damaged him? I don't even know what to say anymore. It's getting kind of ridiculous.

I know. Impulsive, does dumb things. Your argument can be used to defend every bad decision any character has ever done in any crappy B, C, or D movie. So we are right back where we started. Pure lazy plot manipulation. No wonder TLJ is a B-movie.

Stop twisting my words. I didn’t say winning against the Sith was devastating. I said him redeeming his father only to have him die was devastating. And it’s not “now the lightning damaged him.” That’s been part of his story for more than two decades. I was using it as an illustration for why things might not be so happy-go-lucky after RotJ which is how you’re trying to portray it. It’s a pretty natural thing to wonder about when thinking about what might have taken place afterwards.

Repeating the same things you said at the beinning without anything I’ve said is not being back where we started. The point of bringing up Luke’s impulsivity is... whatever you think of it being lazy or not, it’s completely keeping with Luke’s character based on what was established in the OT. Luke being impulsive, even (or maybe, especially) in a critical moment, is a completely defensible choice on the part of the writer. Was it executed well? Not completely.

 

[Moon Man]

Stop twisting my words. I didn’t say winning against the Sith was devastating. I said him redeeming his father only to have him die was devastating. And it’s not “now the lightning damaged him.” That’s been part of his story for more than two decades. I was using it as an illustration for why things might not be so happy-go-lucky after RotJ which is how you’re trying to portray it. It’s a pretty natural thing to wonder about when thinking about what might have taken place afterwards.

Repeating the same things you said at the beinning without anything I’ve said is not being back where we started. The point of bringing up Luke’s impulsivity is... whatever you think of it being lazy or not, it’s completely keeping with Luke’s character based on what was established in the OT. Luke being impulsive, even (or maybe, especially) in a critical moment, is a completely defensible choice on the part of the writer. Was it executed well? Not completely.

I think once he saw him at peace as a force ghost, also hearing his final words to Luke had to be massive closure, “leave me Luke” “No, you’re coming with me father, I have to save you” “You already have Luke. You were right. You were right about me. Tell your sister, you were right.”

At the end, we see Luke all smiles at the celebration. We even see him sigh and smile with relief as he cremates his father. We then see him smile very happily as he sees Anakins force ghost appear at the end. These are not the expressions of a devastated man.

What did devastate him momentarily, was seeing his Aunt/Uncles dead corpses and his home destroyed (we see him look in shock disbelief and struggle to look at the sight of it), and also witnessing the death of Obiwan (we see the same shock disbelief as blaster fire rains around him and he just stands there, he yells “no” and Han and Leah yell at him “come on, it’s too late” after he starts firing at the storm troopers firing back at them).

I think I saw you say earlier that you like to imagine things to fill in the blanks of things that the story does not say (could have been someone else who posted this, not sure I’m on the phone). Anyways, I too like to do this, especially with the stories I like best. I think in this case, you might want to find a better blank filler than devastation at his father’s death. He seemed at peace and very happy at the end of Return if the Jedi, at least to me.

 

[Tawnos]

I think once he saw him at peace as a force ghost, also hearing his final words to Luke had to be massive closure, “leave me Luke” “No, you’re coming with me father, I have to save you” “You already have Luke. You were right. You were right about me. Tell your sister, you were right.”

At the end, we see Luke all smiles at the celebration. We even see him sigh and smile with relief as he cremates his father. We then see him smile very happily as he sees Anakins force ghost appear at the end. These are not the expressions of a devastated man.

What did devastate him momentarily, was seeing his Aunt/Uncles dead corpses and his home destroyed (we see him look in shock disbelief and struggle to look at the sight of it), and also witnessing the death of Obiwan (we see the same shock disbelief as blaster fire rains around him and he just stands there, he yells “no” and Han and Leah yell at him “come on, it’s too late” after he starts firing at the storm troopers firing back at them).

I think I saw you say earlier that you like to imagine things to fill in the blanks of things that the story does not say (could have been someone else who posted this, not sure I’m on the phone). Anyways, I too like to do this, especially with the stories I like best. I think in this case, you might want to find a better blank filler than devastation at his father’s death. He seemed at peace and very happy at the end of Return if the Jedi, at least to me.

The smiles Luke has during that celebration, ones that are not the result of seeing his friends and sister again, are mostly wistful.

But again, all I’m pointing out is that the post-RotJ story is not necessarily one of pure happiness. The resolution of Darth Vader’s story is more bittersweet than triumphant, and that would change the way in which it affected the Luke moving forward from that point.

 

[Drytoast]

HAHAHAHA!

This guy rips this movie apart. I love it.

 

[AlanHUK]

clone wars is coming back

 

[Drytoast]

Why people are even comparing MCU and Star Wars is beyond me.

Really?

Because it shouldn't be.

 

[Moon Man]

The smiles Luke has during that celebration, ones that are not the result of seeing his friends and sister again, are mostly wistful.

But again, all I’m pointing out is that the post-RotJ story is not necessarily one of pure happiness. The resolution of Darth Vader’s story is more bittersweet than triumphant, and that would change the way in which it affected the Luke moving forward from that point.

My gosh, here watch the very last 3 mins of the movie again:



Luke burns fathers corpse - first shot = conflicted emotion deep thought. Second shot = release of tension, sigh of relief, smile of closure/concluding thoughts.

Luke looks up to see force ghost Obi wan + yoda - smiling content emotion on his face

Anakin force ghost appears beside them - next shot of Luke’s face is absolutely immensely happy and giddy. Pause the video I posted at 2:41 mark to see. His sister approaches, momentarily breaking his absolute happy bliss and then he laughs and smiles at her.

There is absolutely nothing wistful or melancholic about Luke at the very end of the movie. He is in sheer bliss at the realization his father is at true peace and the galaxy is saved.

 

[Drytoast]

I read this post and had a thought earlier today, spawned by your use of the word ridiculous: your ridiculous search for rational reasons why somebody does *something irrational* is ridiculous.

People do irrational crap all the time, much of it without impact or consequence. No one is saying Luke was in his right mind in that moment, but why should that be a prerequisite to doing something irrational? Also, Luke had sensed the Dark Side growing in Ben for a while. He says so. The worry of it grew in him until he did something stupid. And every single day people fail or refuse to confront family members about things they should. That's not unrealistic either.

You remember wrong, and your only seeing this movie once doesn't give you a lot of credibility to discuss it in the kind of depth you're attempting to. Watch it again and do so with an open mind to give it a second chance. You still might not like it, but at least you'll be able to talk about it accurately.

Because to understand a movie's intentions one needs to watch it several times?

No.

I don't know who the hell was on that rock dressed as an old Luke Skywalker, but it sure as hell wasn't Luke Skywalker.

Subversion. Oh how wonderful a story that was. I loved it so much that I've lost all interest in any future star wars movie!

Subversion!