Movies: Star Wars: Episode VIII THE LAST JEDI December 15, 2017

[Tawnos]

Well if he died I am guessing the fact that he was leading the opposing army comes to light as I don't see the trade federation continuing the war once Palpatine dies.

Yeah, granted that Dooku and Grievous are already dead, so the Federation military leadership would be completely wiped out.

I still think the general Republic populace revolts against the Jedi.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yeah, granted that Dooku and Grievous are already dead, so the Federation military leadership would be completely wiped out.

I still think the general Republic populace revolts against the Jedi.

Is there supplemental material that leads you to believe that? Don't the Jedi kind of lead the gigantic clone army that represents the republic? Who would revolt? The senators?

 

[Shockmaster]

Did the Trade Federation even know Palpatine was Sidious? I had assumed they knew Sidious was someone in the Senate, but that they didn't know exactly who.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

It's a very narrow view of what widespread chattel slavery is though. Not every slave was used for back breaking labor in a mine or on a farm, although many were of course.

Granted, but I think that the slavery that Shmi and Anakin had was weak. They had a nice house, Shmi spent all day doing arts and crafts and making nice nutritional meals for her boy and she had plenty to eat obviously. Anakin spent his days as a retail clerk and got to go home early, oh and secretly build a pod racer.

Basically Anakin's fall should have been about more then a fierce need for power to control and power to feed his arrogance.

His fall should have really been about his desire to free himself from Slavery.

I mean he was born into slavery, then he was freed only to be enslaved by the Jedi Philosophy, then when he final finds the route to the power that he desires to free himself. He's enslaved by the Dark Side and Palpatine.

Only at the end of the Anakin story does he become free.

That way everything else would have made sense and instead of his main reason for falling being his wife and gaining power to save her. His main reason for falling would have been his.

So yeah to me in a pure world. The chronology would have been.

Anakin is a slave as is his mother, they have a crappy life, they are beaten and bullied and the slavers use Anakin's mother to make him comply.

The Jedi and Padme arrive and stumble onto this slave situation but the Jedi decide that they can't interfere.

After a slaver beats Anakin's mother he uses the force for the first time accidentally out of rage, its powerful and uncontrollable.

The Jedi feel this vergence in the force but they decide not to do anything, their mission is to protect Padme not free slaves. Padme decides to rescue Anakin, the Jedi reluctantly help.

They rescue Anakin but can't rescue his mother. His mother tells him to go. Anakin rages and the Jedi feel his power, they also feel the goodness in the boy he's selfless.

They return to Coruscant and Palpatine senses his power.

The Jedi take him in front of the council and Anakin is tested to a similar result. Anakin states that he really just wants to learn about the force and help others avoid his mothers fate. He doesn't mention that he wants to save his mother.

all the other stuff happens.

The Clone Wars

It starts with showing a montage of Anakin being trained, they work on soothing his emotions and he progresses. But at his heart you can still see that he thinks about his mother and how he's gaining this power to help her and others.

They have the Padme thing where they fall in love, the whole sand is coarse thing is completely wiped from history.

Anakin see's an opportunity to return to Tatooine to free the slaves like he dreamed about and takes it. He goes to Tattooine and basically destroys the slaves pits, but he's still calm he free's the slaves. He runs into Watto the cruel slave master and demands his mother. Watto begs for his life and says that Shmi died years ago. Anakin rages and in that moment of rage he kills the little *******. On Coruscant Palpatine smiles, Yoda worries.

Anakin and Padme got to Genosis to rescue Obi. The clone Wars begin and Anakin protects his friends and fellow Jedi, but is chastised by Yoda for using his powers for selfish reasons and glory, Anakin snaps that he could be the most powerful Jedi and save lives, but the Jedi are holding him back and he's going to end the war.

Anakin runs off to confront Dooku, who kicks the ever loving crap out of him, chops off his arm gives him a facial scar. He's saved by Kenobi and Yoda and Dooku flees. Anakin realizes that he's nowhere near powerful enough, and that its the Jedi who have enslaved him by not letting him do whatever he wants power wise.

On the outside he's grateful and thanks his friends. On the inside he seethes, he wants to be powerful, he wants to end the war and save his friends, he wants revenge on Dooku.

But he see's that he's still a slave

He wants to be free.

Revenge of the Sith

Movie starts in pretty much the same way, except that we see a more severe Anakin the war has gone on for years, and he feels that if the Jedi would act more decisively and use the Force to the full extent this war would have been over years ago. Obi-Wan who clearly loves Anakin as a bother keeps trying to council him.

They rescue the Chancellor, after Anakin completely taps into the dark side and crushes Dooku. His last words to a weeping Dooku are "You look so small" then he murders him, Obi Wan is off somewhere else so he doesn't witness them.

They do the rescue, and back on Coruscant Palpatine thanks him for saving his life. Anakin tells him that for a brief instant he felt free.

Anakin learns that Padme is pregnant, he decides that when the war ends he's leaving the Jedi Order.

Palpatine tells Anakin that his path to power lies beyond the Jedi Council and their dishonest philosophy that holds a brother down. He lets Anakin know that there is a Sith Holocron that he heard about that Anakin should study, but only the Council is allowed to use it. They're hording power.

Anakin begins to have dreams about the death of his wife. He believes that the Sith Holocron holds the key to saving her life.

He confronts the council, they don't deny the existance of the Holocron, but deny him. "You're not ready for that knowledge and only we can decide when you are ready"

Anakin rages and goes to see Palpatine who gives him the I told you so, your enslaved to the Jedi and do what you want you girly man. At that point, Palpatine reveals himself as a Sith "Like Dooku?" "No my friend, far beyond Dooku or the Jedi and I want to share my knowledge with you.

Basically if anyone has read the ROTS novel the seduction of Anakin by Palpatine is very good.

Anakin states that he wants the power to end the war and bring peace to the galaxy and save his wife. Palpatine basically says "I'm that path to power, become my apprentice and I will share all I know. But the Jedi won't understand so we have to deal with them." They Anakin falls and they hatch a plan. Anakin returns to Windu and reveals that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. This is Mace's last chance to see through Anakin and save him by trusting him and bringing him with him. Instead Mace tells Anakin "That he can't be trusted, and shouldn't be a Jedi" Mace leaves and takes Jedi to kill Palpatine, he tells Anakin that the Sith Lord has to die.

Palpatine and Anakin spring their trap and Anakin easily beats Windu. "See Anakin without constraints and by using your rage you cannot be beaten"

Order 66 has begun, Anakin brutally murders Jedi at the temple and we see him doing it. He's a vortex of power growing stronger the deeper he dives into himself.

Palptine sends Anakin now Lord Vader to Mustafar to betray and kill the seperatists. "You are free to make your own choices now, but you can choose to end the war and bring peace no matter the cost"

Anakin goes to end the war, Padme follows and confronts him and basically states that she can't follow him down this path. Obi-Wan shows up and Anakin believes that Padme will betray him to Obi-Wan he chokes out Padme and they fight. As much as Anakin hates Obi-Wan he still loves him as a brother. He has a moment where he has Obi at his mercy and hesitates. He begs Obi-Wan to flee to vanish to not make him kill him. Obi-Wan's duty is to the force and he basically backstabs Anakin leaving him to burn. The hatred of Obi-Wan erupts in a fury.

Obi-Wan takes Padme and she delivers a pair of twins and begs Obi-Wan to save Anakin before she dies. She then dies the autopsy report reads "Died of throat trauma"

Palpatine saves Anakin and encases him in the suit, he tells Anakin that Obi-Wan killed Padme in the end. Anakin now realizes that while he's powerful he's now a slave to the darkside and he serves Palpatine who is far more powerful. He despairs.

The ending montage. We see the funeral for Padme, we see Obi-Wan giving Luke to Beru, we see Leia in the arms of the Queen. We see Palpatine on the bridge of a Star Destroyer. We see Storm Troopers invading a planet. The we see Anakin fighting a Jedi and cutting her down in a brutal fashion. Then we see Yoda with a look of dspair.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

Did the Trade Federation even know Palpatine was Sidious? I had assumed they knew Sidious was someone in the Senate, but that they didn't know exactly who.

I don't think they knew, all they knew was that Sidious was a Sith Lord with a long reach.

Palpatine probably worked pretty hard at playing a uncorruptable kindly senator and then Chancellor

I think that very few people pre fall knew that Palpatine was Sidious, and when he took power he still called himself Palpatine.

I think probably Mas Ammeda or however you spelt his name, and Sly Moore the two aids knew. And his apprentices knew. That's it.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Screen time isn't the only thing to look at, but when comparing Windu and other characters who were secondary and didn't need a lot of characterization (R2D2 and Chewie in the movies listed as examples), the lack of screen time is problematic. Adding on the fact his screen time was mainly spent fighting and not doing anything character wise, and it gets even worse. Would you argue that Windu had enough time to be characterized, or that he had enough characterization in the movies?

As far as him going after Palpatine, the lack of logic comes from the manner in which he did it. With limited help, knowing the Jedi's use of the force is diminished, and against an opponent who he doesn't quite understand yet. This is not done to demonstrate the lack of foresight on behalf of the Jedi order, but to create a situation where Windu and Palpatine are one on one and Anakin has to intervene and begin his hilariously quick descent to the dark side.

I would have been totally down with a story that fleshes out Windu as someone who's militant personality shows cracks in the Jedi leadership, creates a rift between the order and Anakin, and forces Anakin to use the dark side to try and save the Republic out of desperation, not because "No maybe Palpatine can save Padme based on implications."

Also, how in the hell was Mace Windu going to restrain Palpatine in that situation? Did he bring a pair of handcuffs?

Limited help? Windu beat Sidious, he didn't even need help. Personally I think he shouldnt of brought help, they served no purpose in the fight and would of shown his, as also a symbol of the current Jedi, arrogance. Like previously mentioned he had no attentions of arresting a Sith Lord who controlled the system

Why do you guys keep moving the goal posts from Windu didnt have enough screen time to his screen time wasn't used properly

Is there supplemental material that leads you to believe that? Don't the Jedi kind of lead the gigantic clone army that represents the republic? Who would revolt? The senators?

The Jedi didnt lead the Clone army, the Republic senate did. If the Jedi were seen, as Palpatine claims after Windu died, that the Jedi attempted a coup to take control of the army and the republic the senators would do what was necessary to use the army on the Jedi, probably with the support of the people

 

[Hivemind]

Why do you guys keep moving the goal posts from Windu didnt have enough screen time to his screen time wasn't used properly

We're not moving any goalposts. We're having a conversation about how the handling of Mace Windu was subpar with regards to Anakin's botched downfall in the prequels. You seem intent on trying to turn that into some sort of argument about semantics.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Limited help? Windu beat Sidious, he didn't even need help. Personally I think he shouldnt of brought help, they served no purpose in the fight and would of shown his, as also a symbol of the current Jedi, arrogance. Like previously mentioned he had no attentions of arresting a Sith Lord who controlled the system

Why do you guys keep moving the goal posts from Windu didnt have enough screen time to his screen time wasn't used properly

Can be a little of column A, little of column B.

Again, the point was that the situation was made to involve a situation where Anakin had to "save" Palpatine in a hamfisted way and throw him to the dark side. It was not used as a way to demonstrate the "arrogance" of the Jedi Order or the problems with it.

The Jedi didnt lead the Clone army, the Republic senate did. If the Jedi were seen, as Palpatine claims after Windu died, that the Jedi attempted a coup to take control of the army and the republic the senators would do what was necessary to use the army on the Jedi, probably with the support of the people

The Jedi were considered major generals who led the army to different destinations. As far as the idea of them being considered to be staging a coup, Palpatine wouldn't be telling the story considering he would be dead, so who would make that claim? Palpatine looked as evil as ever and basically said "I'm king now" and nobody even called him out on it when he took over.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

We're not moving any goalposts. We're having a conversation about how the handling of Mace Windu was subpar with regards to Anakin's botched downfall in the prequels. You seem intent on trying to turn that into some sort of argument about semantics.

Lol, it was you of all people who brought up Windu's screen time not being enough that started it. You stated that he only had 14 minutes of screen time across the movies and barely has time to be the pivotal figure he was supposed to be

Mace Windu has 14 minutes and 30 seconds of screen time split across three movies. 7 minutes of that comes in AotC, mostly in a fight scene. For reference, Chewbacca got 8:30 of screen time in TFA. R2-D2 has more screen time in the prequels than Windu.

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls031379663/

All of these statements regarding Mace Windu's behavior and characteristics are largely driven by outside material and fan opinion. This illustrates how poorly handled and rushed Anakin's downfall is. Windu is a pivotal figure in the Jedi Order that Anakin rebels against and a central character in the plot events, yet he's barely shown or involved beyond exposition and fight scenes.

The Jedi were considered major generals who led the army to different destinations. As far as the idea of them being considered to be staging a coup, Palpatine wouldn't be telling the story considering he would be dead, so who would make that claim? Palpatine looked as evil as ever and basically said "I'm king now" and nobody even called him out on it when he took over.

Yes the Jedi were generals who served the Republic senators. Palpatine controlled the senate, IE he had control over many of the people in it like the aforementioned Mas Amedda. There would be plenty of support from his puppets to spin the scenario and go after the Jedi if he died, especially those who seek the power he had for themselves, power of chancellor not Sith. It was basically like the July 20 plot, a coup designed to kill the Chancellor and take over but was stopped and all those on the other side were executed

 

[Osprey]

I think we'll get those eventually, but for now I think they're focused on pushing the new films. Maybe once they finish this trilogy they'll do it as part of a release of all the enumerated saga films.

I think that it would've made more sense to remaster them in the two years between the sale and Episode VII, to provide earlier return on investment and generate more excitement in the new trilogy... but, yeah, perhaps once they finish the new trilogy, they'll look for new revenue sources and finally remaster them. If they're waiting to do them properly in 4K, that'd be fine, too... though, if they were smart, they would've remastered them in HD two years ago and then milked customers again for 4K versions.

There's probably a clause when they bought the property from Lucas that they can't release the original theatrical versions of the OT. It's probably the only reason, because for all the crap people want to give Disney, they are all about fan-service, and nothing would be bigger to the fans than the original versions being released on Blu-ray and DVD.

That's possible, but, if so, my guess is that it would expire eventually (ex. "don't re-release the theatrical versions for 5 years"). Putting in a clause that never expires would be a true "screw you" to the fans, and I'm not sure that even Lucas would do that. If there's one property that I can see Lucas insisting that they never release, it would be the Star Wars Holiday Special .

Are you guys familiar with the "Despecialized Edition"?

Yeah, I am. In fact, I think that I have the "despecialized" versions of all three on my hard drive. It's just not the same as official remasters and re-releases, though. I (and, I imagine, many fans) would gladly pay $100 for official HD versions on Blu-ray even though unofficial versions available (Edit: oh, and I forgot that the despecialized versions are only 720p so far, so that's another thing).

 

[Hivemind]

Lol, it was you of all people who brought up Windu's screen time not being enough that started it. You stated that he only had 14 minutes of screen time across the movies and barely has time to be the pivotal figure he was supposed to be

Read my WHOLE statement, rather than just snipping the portions of it that you want to get into semantic arguments over. In that post I explicitly stated how much of his screentime was dedicated to fight scenes. You clipped that out of my response when you replied, and then called it moving the goalposts when it was brought up again later.

 

[The Gabe Blade]

Coming full circle on this hole Rogue one and TFA versus the prequels,
Does anybody else other than Mr Fahrenheit think the prequels were better than the two Disney movies?
I'm not trying to single himout for the record he was the only person that I think spoke out that he thought that they were better.


I also realize that I admitted to answer one of his questions. I have seen the force awakens and Rogue one both multiple times.
I thought both movies blew away episodes 1, 2,or 3. I do want to add that Rogue one is a very different movie then all the others, but I have noticed that the more I watch it the more I like it. And I have probably seen it about 15 times now

 

[Hivemind]

I'd ask how on Earth you've watched Rogue One that many times already, then I see your location and immediately understand.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yes the Jedi were generals who served the Republic senators. Palpatine controlled the senate, IE he had control over many of the people in it like the aforementioned Mas Amedda. There would be plenty of support from his puppets to spin the scenario and go after the Jedi if he died, especially those who seek the power he had for themselves, power of chancellor not Sith. It was basically like the July 20 plot, a coup designed to kill the Chancellor and take over but was stopped and all those on the other side were executed

However we are unsure of how much of it he controlled and his ability to have his agenda met if he died. Not to mention the reason Palpatine had underlings was to usher in a new age of the Sith, and with him out of the picture you just have bureaucrats who formerly served a Sith Lord.

What you bring up could certainly be plausible, but if the movie doesn't make these kinds of things apparent then they cannot really be used to justify certain characterizations. Especially considering the implication is no matter what they did, they would not be able to stop from being destroyed (Mace makes it apparent that Palpatine could easily weasel out of a trial and being a Sith is kind of dangerous).

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I think we'll get those eventually, but for now I think they're focused on pushing the new films. Maybe once they finish this trilogy they'll do it as part of a release of all the enumerated saga films.

Of course we'll get there. Too much money to be made. I would expect it for 2027 aka the 50-year anniversary. Re-release in theater + digital.

 

[Tawnos]

It wasn't particularly hard for Palpatine to convince people that the Jedi attempted to assasinate him. And he had enough cache to immediately leverage it into a reorganization of the government.

Plus, in the book Catalyst, Galen Erso and his wife (whose name in just totally blanking on) seem to be among the very few who didn't believe the Jedi did what Palpatine said. And one of the few with a high opinion of the Jedi at all. I think public sentiment was already pretty unfavorable for the Jedi while Palpatine was revered. At least on Coruscant.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yes, after stopping his attackers and completely destroying the rest of their organization of course he was able to make that the only narrative. But we are talking about if he was assassinated and the Sith were no more.

 

[Tawnos]

Yes, after stopping his attackers and completely destroying the rest of their organization of course he was able to make that the only narrative. But we are talking about if he was assassinated and the Sith were no more.

The political machinery would still be there, is my point.

Also, you can never destroy the Sith. That's the kind of nonsense the deluded Jedi believed.

 

[HanSolo]

The political machinery would still be there, is my point.

Also, you can never destroy the Sith. That's the kind of nonsense the deluded Jedi believed.

I read that second part like you were Palpatine in a hood cackling behind a keyboard.

 

[The Gabe Blade]

I read that second part like you were Palpatine in a hood cackling behind a keyboard.

Good call!

 

[Tawnos]

I read that second part like you were Palpatine in a hood cackling behind a keyboard.

Who says I'm not?

I think one of the hardest things to remember about the Jedi is that they're the good in good vs evil. They might talk about balance, but that's just lip service. Good seeks control as much as evil does, they just don't do it through subjugation and dominance. Swing far enough towards good and it becomes just as bad as evil. Almost like how both ends of the political spectrum end in authoritarianism. Too much successful righteousness means a belief that you hold a monopoly on what is right.

I think I've mentioned this before, but it reminds me of Dragonlance, the fictional history of which is described as a pendulum swinging between good and evil. The period of time in that fictional history where the side of good was strongest ended up with their people not only hunting down and destroying the worshippers of all 14 evil and neutral gods, but destroying any worship of the 7 good gods that wasn't done in the official way. Eventually, the human leader tried to become a god himself. It lead to a Cataclysm that was just as bad as any successful period of evil would produce.

Again, the point is that good with extreme amount of power is just as bad as evil. This is why I hate the term "Grey Jedi." You can't be a Jedi and be neutral. We need another term for it.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Too much good is somehow bad. Alrighty.

Also what argument are you trying to make? That Palpatine should have been left alive? Destroyed with some kind of other unknown game plan? What?

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

Does anybody else other than Mr Fahrenheit think the prequels were better than the two Disney movies?

TFA, yes

R1 has a bevy of flaws but is quite clearly the 4th best Star Wars movie

 

[aleshemsky83]

Coming full circle on this hole Rogue one and TFA versus the prequels,
Does anybody else other than Mr Fahrenheit think the prequels were better than the two Disney movies?
I'm not trying to single himout for the record he was the only person that I think spoke out that he thought that they were better.


I also realize that I admitted to answer one of his questions. I have seen the force awakens and Rogue one both multiple times.
I thought both movies blew away episodes 1, 2,or 3. I do want to add that Rogue one is a very different movie then all the others, but I have noticed that the more I watch it the more I like it. And I have probably seen it about 15 times now

I will say I preferred Revenge of the Sith to Force Awakens (I haven't seen Rogue One yet) but will readily admit Force Awakens had far better acting and writing.

 

[Quack Shot]

TFA was the perfect film for what it needed to be. It needed to reflect an OT film (ANH) to stray away from any talk of it being similar to the prequels and reduce the negative views over Disney buying Lucasfilm.

Most people I've met have stated that TFA is clearly the better film than the prequels if you go by the style, look, and acting of the film. However they prefer the prequels because of the more original storyline.