Sporting News: Top 25 under 25 for 2019-20

[Dache]

The bolded is just ridiculous. The "fancy" numbers comment kind of proves my whole point, and you are the one saying it it I who is not providing context????

The "fancy" numbers do provide context! It takes a 105-point season and completely eliminates the gap between the 81-point season. Once you're done, the debate becomes totally legitimate, especially when you realize both are top-line players who are consistently matched up against the opposing top matchups.

What's so "fancy" about goals/60? It's literally goals scored against ice time.

Pastrnak averaged 1.27 goals/60
Draisaitl averaged 1.22 goals/60

What's so "fancy" about individual scoring chances/60? It's literally scoring chances against ice time.

Pastrnak averaged 8.36 iSC/60
Draisaitl averaged 6.57 iSC/60

What's so "fancy" about penalties drawn/60? It's literally what the stat says -- how many penalties you're forcing opponents to take every 3 games or so.

Pastrnak averaged 1.46 PD/60
Draisaitl averaged 0.91 PD/60

And I clearly explained the Draisaitl comment -- that McDavid helped him go from being an excellent player to a superstar, but it's only been one year. If he regresses back to 30/70 or slumps and is taken off his line, then you are totally ignorant if you think the perception towards Draisaitl doesn't change from elite player to very good or above average. Same thing happened to Jonathan Cheechoo (Thornton), Adam Graves (Messier), Rob Brown (Mario) etc etc.

Perception is reality. The perception outside of Edmonton is that Draisaitl hit 50 and 100 mainly because he plays with McDavid. That doesn't mean he won't make AS teams or the HOF, or that he isn't one of the game's elite talents. He was a high pick and has lived up to expectations.

So even if I threw out the relative stats, the rate stats clearly show that the two players are incredibly close or equal, and the study certainly doesn't deserve discrediting because a homer is mad at his guy being ranked 8th versus being ranked 7th.

Sounds like we have a new p/60 champ. But in all seriousness. I’ve seen you defend some of your rankings using just last years stats, some you’ve used the last 2 years, some you didn’t use last year at all, it has sounded fairly wishy washy. If it’s just an opinion then say it as such.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

This argument's nonsensical at worst, tired at best. So Pastrnak's had a 81 point season and a 80 point season. Draisaitl's had a 77 point season and a 105 point season. You think Pastrnak's done better because he had multiple 80-point seasons? Sorry, but that's ridiculous. If this is how you rank players, it's no wonder your lists are so far detached from reality.

My anecdotal opinion is that Draisaitl's a lot scarier to face than Pastrnak, and Draisaitl's also shown far more ability to take over games all on his own, even playing next to significantly lacking talent.

Draisaitl plays with McDavid.

Sounds like we have a new p/60 champ. But in all seriousness. I’ve seen you defend some of your rankings using just last years stats, some you’ve used the last 2 years, some you didn’t use last year at all, it has sounded fairly wishy washy. If it’s just an opinion then say it as such.

Opinion based on advanced numbers from the 2018-19 season.

 

[Dache]

Draisaitl plays with McDavid.



Opinion based on advanced numbers from the 2018-19 season.

You’ve admitted several times in this thread that it’s not exclusively numbers from that season alone and sometimes not that season at all.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

You’ve admitted several times in this thread that it’s not exclusively numbers from that season alone and sometimes not that season at all.

Examples please.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The implication was that ranking Svechnikov ahead of Dahlin was a bad thing. If that were the case, the fans of the "mistake" would be unanimous in swapping for the desired choice.

Uhm okay, but using that logic couldn't you also argue that Dahlin is better because Sabres fans would be unanimous in keeping Dahlin over Svech?

Think you want to reword what you just wrote. Has nothing to do with my reply, which answered your question.

He literally proved that your logic was garbage and you keep arguing.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

He literally proved that your logic was garbage and you keep arguing.

No. I'm pretty clear in what I say, and you seem to be the one who doesn't get it.

Buffalo thinking Dahlin is better and Carolina thinking Svechnikov is better proves my original point -- that if ranking Svechnikov over Dahlin in 2018 was a Sabres' fans way of discrediting this list, then it would take one fanbase to regret the pick and wish they had the other guy. You as an Oilers fan should know all about draft-pick regret.

Canes fans seem pretty happy with Svechnikov, and clearly he's an elite talent. It's like saying "Hey, this is the idiot that ranked Hedman ahead of Tavares" or "Hey, this moron ranked Malkin over Ovechkin".

Maybe the Sabres fan should have said "Hey this is guy who ranked Puljujarvi ahead of Dubois", since Puljujarvi is a complete bust up to this point.

 

[ResilientBeast]

No. I'm pretty clear in what I say, and you seem to be the one who doesn't get it.

Buffalo thinking Dahlin is better and Carolina thinking Svechnikov is better proves my original point -- that if ranking Svechnikov over Dahlin in 2018 was a Sabres' fans way of discrediting this list, then it would take one fanbase to regret the pick and wish they had the other guy. You as an Oilers fan should know all about draft-pick regret.

Canes fans seem pretty happy with Svechnikov, and clearly he's an elite talent. It's like saying "Hey, this is the idiot that ranked Hedman ahead of Tavares" or "Hey, this moron ranked Malkin over Ovechkin".

Maybe the Sabres fan should have said "Hey this is guy who ranked Puljujarvi ahead of Dubois", since Puljujarvi is a complete bust up to this point.

So you're saying, that since Hurricane fans are happy with Svechnikov they wouldn't want Dahlin even if they were in the position to have drafted him instead?

It's quite telling that you try and take a shot a fanbase when your logic gets challenged

Thanks! Always love unsolicited support for my decision to slightly favor one of the best wingers on the best team in the East who is tied with Connor McDavid with an NHL-best six assists after leading the ENTIRE league last season as a teenage rookie in xGF%/60 at 5v5.

Glad I’m not the only one recognizing Svechnikov’s star potential.

He's also tied with Dahlin.....

 

[Tage2Tuch]

It’s going to be cool when Eichel will be top 3-5 on these lists by next year.

13 is hilarious.

1. McDavid
2. Matthews
3. MacKinnon
   
4. Barkov
5. Jones
6. Point
7. Marner
8. Raantanen
9. Draisaitl
10. Pastrnak

Hes better then Half’s those guys, more exciting too which is what this is going by, drawing power.

 

[ijuka]

The bigger problem, of course, is that Dahlin's #24 even though he'll have a good chance to win Norris trophy this season IMO. Played ridiculously well in what I've seen.

Thanks! Always love unsolicited support for my decision to slightly favor one of the best wingers on the best team in the East who is tied with Connor McDavid with an NHL-best six assists after leading the ENTIRE league last season as a teenage rookie in xGF%/60 at 5v5.

Glad I’m not the only one recognizing Svechnikov’s star potential.

Btw, this is one awful post. You specifically point out he's tied with Connor McDavid instead of pointing out he's tied with Rasmus Dahlin, when he's the one you're comparing him to. That makes you look very bad.

Oh right, and "xGF%/60" is an impossible stat, it doesn't exist. So you're making things up.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

So you're saying, that since Hurricane fans are happy with Svechnikov they wouldn't want Dahlin even if they were in the position to have drafted him instead?

It's quite telling that you try and take a shot a fanbase when your logic gets challenged

He's also tied with Dahlin.....

Nope. Never said that. That's two in a row.

In. Plain. English -- Svechnikov has elite potential. Star potential. He's loved in Carolina and I am very proud and confident with my draft-year assessment. I screwed up plenty before, but Svechnikov over Dahlin ain't one of them.

And look at the date of the post -- it was posted before last night's game when Svechnikov was in fact tied with McDavid and Dahlin had one game in hand.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

The bigger problem, of course, is that Dahlin's #24 even though he'll have a good chance to win Norris trophy this season IMO. Played ridiculously well in what I've seen.

Btw, this is one awful post. You specifically point out he's tied with Connor McDavid instead of pointing out he's tied with Rasmus Dahlin, when he's the one you're comparing him to. That makes you look very bad.

Oh right, and "xGF%/60" is an impossible stat, it doesn't exist. So you're making things up.

Dahlkin tied it last night, before the post was made. But why bother looking at a time stamp, right?

And it was a typo. Meant this:

xGF60: Expected Goals For per 60; Expected goals scored by a team or player per 60 minutes of Time On Ice (xGF/TOI*60)

Glossary | Corsica

Point stands.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Nope. Never said that. That's two in a row.

In. Plain. English -- Svechnikov has elite potential. Star potential. He's loved in Carolina and I am very proud and confident with my draft-year assessment. I screwed up plenty before, but Svechnikov over Dahlin ain't one of them.

And look at the date of the post -- it was posted before last night's game when Svechnikov was in fact tied with McDavid and Dahlin had one game in hand.

1) So that is an entirely different point

You said

"The implication was that ranking Svechnikov ahead of Dahlin was a bad thing. If that were the case, the fans of the "mistake" would be unanimous in swapping for the desired choice."

Lets break down exactly what you said. You're saying in this strawman that if Svechnikov was a mistake to select over Dahlin Carolina would overwhelmingly want to switch and select Dahlin. Ignoring the fact that Carolina did not get to choose between them while Buffalo did. So it doesn't really matter what Hurricanes fans think of Dahlin, it matters what Sabres fans think.

2) I too like to discuss the standings after 3/4 games like that means shit. For a guy going on about "stats" you should be introduced to the concept of sample sizes would definitely help your work.

 

[Lampedampe]

Nope. Never said that. That's two in a row.

In. Plain. English -- Svechnikov has elite potential. Star potential. He's loved in Carolina and I am very proud and confident with my draft-year assessment. I screwed up plenty before, but Svechnikov over Dahlin ain't one of them.

And look at the date of the post -- it was posted before last night's game when Svechnikov was in fact tied with McDavid and Dahlin had one game in hand.

I personally have no problem with you ranking Svech above Dahlin, even though I strongly disagree.

But c'mon now man, you said in "plain English" that Canes fans are very happy with Svech and wouldn't trade him for Dahlin to justify your ranking, that's the specific argument that I'm questioning, because it's logically flawed.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

It’s going to be cool when Eichel will be top 3-5 on these lists by next year.

13 is hilarious.


Hes better then Half’s those guys, more exciting too which is what this is going by, drawing power.

Good player. Top 3-5 isn't out of the question for next year.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I personally have no problem with you ranking Svech above Dahlin, even though I strongly disagree.

But c'mon now man, you said in "plain English" that Canes fans are very happy with Svech and wouldn't trade him for Dahlin to justify your ranking, that's the specific argument that I'm questioning, because it's logically flawed.

No man,

If Cane fans wouldn't trade Svech for Dahlin that means Svech > Dahlin

If Sabres fans wouldn't trade Dahlin for Svech that means Dahlin > Svech (????)

 

[Steve Kournianos]

1) So that is an entirely different point

You said

"The implication was that ranking Svechnikov ahead of Dahlin was a bad thing. If that were the case, the fans of the "mistake" would be unanimous in swapping for the desired choice."

Lets break down exactly what you said. You're saying in this strawman that if Svechnikov was a mistake to select over Dahlin Carolina would overwhelmingly want to switch and select Dahlin. Ignoring the fact that Carolina did not get to choose between them while Buffalo did. So it doesn't really matter what Hurricanes fans think of Dahlin, it matters what Sabres fans think.

2) I too like to discuss the standings after 3/4 games like that means ****. For a guy going on about "stats" you should be introduced to the concept of sample sizes would definitely help your work.

You really need help.

Pre-suhnt. Dhey.

Present Day.

PresentDay.

 

[Lampedampe]

No man,

If Cane fans wouldn't trade Svech for Dahlin that means Svech > Dahlin

If Sabres fans wouldn't trade Dahlin for Svech that means Dahlin > Svech (????)

It all makes perfect sense now, thanks for explaining it in plain English!

 

[ResilientBeast]

You really need help.

Pre-suhnt. Dhey.

Present Day.

PresentDay.

By all means help me in Plain. English. while you shuffle goal posts around

 

[McDNicks17]

Ohhh. It's a Kournianos article?

It all makes sense now.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Sounds like we have a new p/60 champ. But in all seriousness. I’ve seen you defend some of your rankings using just last years stats, some you’ve used the last 2 years, some you didn’t use last year at all, it has sounded fairly wishy washy. If it’s just an opinion then say it as such.

Draisaitl plays with McDavid.



Opinion based on advanced numbers from the 2018-19 season.

Okay so lets also move to discuss this point surrounding Neon Leon.

So straight up, are you just using 2018-19 advanced statistics to rank players or not? Are the ranking solely generated based upon the players advanced statistics from the 2018-19 NHL season?

 

[Steve Kournianos]

I personally have no problem with you ranking Svech above Dahlin, even though I strongly disagree.

But c'mon now man, you said in "plain English" that Canes fans are very happy with Svech and wouldn't trade him for Dahlin to justify your ranking, that's the specific argument that I'm questioning, because it's logically flawed.

Hmmmmm I don't think I ever said that they wouldn't do the trade straight up. I'm sure there's a decent chunk of the fanbase who would rather have the defenseman.

The question is simple: On 10/10/19, are Carolina fans upset/regretting/angry that they ended up with Svechnikov over Dahlin? Has nothing to do with who the better player is because it's an apples-oranges debate with only a draft+1 to go off of. Dahlin had a great rookie year. So did Svechnikov, who even produced in the playoffs.

It has everything to do with the fact that it's a legitimate debate -- was ranking Svechnikov over Dahlin a mistake? Nope. At least not yet. The kid is a wrecking ball, and the numbers prove it.

Do Carolina fans regret having to settle for Svechnikov? Doesn't seem like it. That's why it was stupid of that Sabres fan to imply that I made some sort of mistake.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Hmmmmm I don't think I ever said that they wouldn't do the trade straight up. I'm sure there's a decent chunk of the fanbase who would rather have the defenseman.

The question is simple: On 10/10/19, are Carolina fans upset/regretting/angry that they ended up with Svechnikov over Dahlin? Has nothing to do with who the better player is because it's an apples-oranges debate with only a draft+1 to go off of. Dahlin had a great rookie year. So did Svechnikov, who even produced in the playoffs.

It has everything to do with the fact that it's a legitimate debate -- was ranking Svechnikov over Dahlin a mistake? Nope. At least not yet. The kid is a wrecking ball, and the numbers prove it.

Do Carolina fans regret having to settle for Svechnikov? Doesn't seem like it. That's why it was stupid of that Sabres fan to imply that I made some sort of mistake.

Woof another winner

"The question is simple: On 10/10/19, are Carolina fans upset/regretting/angry that they ended up with Svechnikov over Dahlin? Has nothing to do with who the better player is because it's an apples-oranges debate..."

1) It has everything to do with who is the better player because they are both HOCKEY PLAYERS.

2) If it's apples to oranges as you've said, why did you even bother comparing them in a ranking

 

[Pilky01]

Canada has got to have a run of Cups in them at this point. So much young talent on Canadian teams.

 

[Dache]

Examples please.

Hughes? I’m not digging through a thread to find things you know you’ve said.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Okay so lets also move to discuss this point surrounding Neon Leon.

So straight up, are you just using 2018-19 advanced statistics to rank players or not? Are the ranking solely generated based upon the players advanced statistics from the 2018-19 NHL season?

In this study, mostly, although not the end-all-be all. Advanced numbers were used to clear up or break a deadlock -- Is Matthews better than Barkov? How do you prove that? Well, in that case, Barkov's two-way play gave him the edge. Why Barkov over Draisaitl? Because Barkov is Florida's McDavid, Huberdeau is Florida's Draisaitl. Both had the misfortune of terrible teams and terrible goaltending, and Draisaitl had the better rel numbers, but Barkov was a better puck distributor. Again, I debated ranking Barkov as high as I did because his advanced numbers (outside of assists) weren't as eye popping as others with better support. But common sense told me that for a No. 1 two-way center on Florida to have the best season in 20 years and nearly hit 100 points made up for several nondescript advanced categories.

MacKinnon? I mean, I don't think anybody should have an issue ranking him after McDavid.

The group thereafter -- Matthews, Point, Marner, Draisaitl, Eichel, Patrnak -- relied heavily on rate and rel.