Speculation: Spitballing destinations/returns for Niskanen

[jmelm]

Saying that Dumoulin or Harrington would be a better fit next to Letang right now than Despres is kind of baffling to me.

Firstly, I am talking hypothetically (because I don't think Nisky is going anywhere this year, and certainly at least not until Scuderi is back or at the deadline at the earliest), so you can argue it's a moot discussion.

That being said: Dan Bylsma, IMO (because I said the same thing myself a couple of years back) was somewhat correct that Despres *might* project as a great partner with Letang. Where I think he was off, however, was the timing. Sure, Despres in 2-4 years could be a great partner with Kris as he works he way up the ranks, but suggesting these 2 would be good together now is not only putting the cart before the horse, but it is completely contrary to what we saw many times last year (aka Letang looking grossly uncomfortable with Simon as his partner).

You want more proof? Look no further than the Scuderi signing. Rob wasn't brought in to play on the 3rd pairing, he was brought in to play the role like he played with Doughty, or a consolation prize for the role that Suter would have played had we been successful in signing him.

I see Despres' evolution (to put it succinctly) into 3 primary stages: 1) the stage where he's at now, as Hyne's said in that artice that was recently posted about Despres needing to maintain focus and stabilize his game (aka the stabilization period). 2) Despres, once he has that down, starting to take some chances selectively and seeing how far he can play within himself and skill set (the experimental or growth phase). And 3) the part where he's got #1 and #2 down and is able to pu that all together (the "playing & developing a complete, all-around game phase).

Despres is a fine player, no doubt, but he's got some things to work on, and I just think that his trajectory and rate of development/evolution is just at a different pace than some of the other players we're talking about. It's not an indictment of him, and it doesn't mean that he may not still have a higher ceiling. It may simply mean he could need some more time and effort to get there. Harrington, Maatta, and Dumoulin, OTOH, all have more "complete games" than Simon at this point, which is why they may have surpassed him, in some resects, at least perhaps for the time being.

Just my 2.5 cents on the matter. And also, given that Despres had his chance last year and is currently being outplayed by Dumoulin, it would be nice to see the latter get a few cups of coffee with the big club this year so he'll have all the more experience and preparation to draw from as he moves forward with his development.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Oilers, a team with horrible defensemen, are desperate apparently. But not desperate enough to trade for Niskanen, who could end up being one of their best defensemen and mostly because that group sucks, outside of Smid who is a solid defensive defenseman.

And you know this how?

 

[Houston Penguin]

I truly think some people just want to see A TRADE .... like this is fantasy hockey.

I still haven't seen a team go into the playoffs with three rookies in the top six defensively and there's a damn good reason for it.

Now, if we can acquire this top nine forward that all of you think we need so bad in any other way, I'm down.

But adding the spector of three rookies to the "embarrasments" of the last few years doesn't seem smart.

Further, for those who are so down on Bylsma, what makes you think adding that forward is going to change anything in the top nine? ..... the man is 8-4 with two imporant pieces of that group out .... he is seeing what his club can do regardless of missing vital players .... yeah, that will make him place this new guy in a prominent position

 

[Waffle Fries]

That being said: Dan Bylsma, IMO (because I said the same thing myself a couple of years back) was somewhat correct that Despres *might* project as a great partner with Letang. Where I think he was off, however, was the timing. Sure, Despres in 2-4 years could be a great partner with Kris as he works he way up the ranks, but suggesting these 2 would be good together now is not only putting the cart before the horse, but it is completely contrary to what we saw many times last year (aka Letang looking grossly uncomfortable with Simon as his partner).

Not quite sure we're you're getting this from. They looked very good together and Letang even made it a point to say that he enjoyed playing with him and felt like he played a more responsible game.

Despres is a fine player, no doubt, but he's got some things to work on, and I just think that his trajectory and rate of development/evolution is just at a different pace than some of the other players we're talking about. It's not an indictment of him, and it doesn't mean that he may not still have a higher ceiling. It may simply mean he could need some more time and effort to get there. Harrington, Maatta, and Dumoulin, OTOH, all have more "complete games" than Simon at this point, which is why they may have surpassed him, in some resects, at least perhaps for the time being.

Just my 2.5 cents on the matter. And also, given that Despres had his chance last year and is currently being outplayed by Dumoulin, it would be nice to see the latter get a few cups of coffee with the big club this year so he'll have all the more experience and preparation to draw from as he moves forward with his development.

I cut out the parts that seemed kind of irrelevant, but in response to the bolded the only one of these players that seemed to have passed Despres in the organization's eyes is the bolded. I don't really think you can say that Harrington and Dumoulin have more complete games than Despres when neither have even seen NHL action.

The conversation was specifically focused on if we traded Nisky who would be Scuderi's place holder. Someone who has never played an NHL game in his life would not be a better fit for our top four than someone who has played and excelled there in the past. I feel like you may be a little biased towards Harrington and Dumoulin to think they would be.

 

[IcedCapp]

And you know this how?

I think he's referring to the cesspool known as the Trade Forum

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I truly think some people just want to see A TRADE .... like this is fantasy hockey.

I still haven't seen a team go into the playoffs with three rookies in the top six defensively and there's a damn good reason for it.

Now, if we can acquire this top nine forward that all of you think we need so bad in any other way, I'm down.

But adding the spector of three rookies to the "embarrasments" of the last few years doesn't seem smart.

Further, for those who are so down on Bylsma, what makes you think adding that forward is going to change anything in the top nine? ..... the man is 8-4 with two imporant pieces of that group out .... he is seeing what his club can do regardless of missing vital players .... yeah, that will make him place this new guy in a prominent position

We're 12 games into the season, not 82. Scuds will be back around mid-season, so the POs aren't an issue right now. It's the perfect time to give Des ~30 games in the top 4 to see what he can do and if he can do it full time next year when Nisky and Oprik are hopefully gone.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I still haven't seen a team go into the playoffs with three rookies in the top six defensively and there's a damn good reason for it.

How many teams have had our D prospect pool?

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

How many teams have had our D prospect pool?

Not to mention that, when healthy, only 2 rookies will be playing.

Scuds-Tang
Orpik-Martin

That is our top 4. How do people not understand this?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Not to mention that, when healthy, only 2 rookies will be playing.

Scuds-Tang
Orpik-Martin

That is our top 4. How do people not understand this?

People talk about rookie defensemen as if they're ECHL defensemen!

Colorado is sitting pretty this season and they're currently icing two AHL journeymen in their top 6: Andre Benoit and Nate Guenin. Is that any better than 2-3 'rookies'?

The fact is it's easier to play defense in the NHL these days. The systems help defensemen so much nowadays, and the players coming up the ranks are so much more prepared both physically and systematically. PLUS, wingers now play way down low in the defensive zone, and virtually nobody bails out of the zone early anymore. Collapsing defenses, shot-blocking, five guys back...it's so much easier today. Plus they're better skaters, too, so they can handle it more easily.

 

[Darth Vitale]

While Nisky may not be worth a lot, Oilers fans never give up anything of any significance for any player.

Luckily for GMs everywhere, Oiler fans have no control over any aspect of their team's personnel. But yah, EDM fans are notorious in offering garbage for star power in our mysterious HFB Trade Realm. For Niskanen they'd probably offer some Chip-Chopped ham. Hammier. Tastier.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Luckily for GMs everywhere, Oiler fans have no control over any aspect of their team's personnel. But yah, EDM fans are notorious in offering garbage for star power in our mysterious HFB Trade Realm. For Niskanen they'd probably offer some Chip-Chopped ham. Hammier. Tastier.

All I can say to that is TAKE THE DEAL.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The only thing dumber than asking fans on this site about trades (and treating it like the gospel truth) might be sticking your nuts in a garbage disposal because you're afraid of testicular cancer.

 

[Tender Rip]

The only thing dumber than asking fans on this site about trades (and treating it like the gospel truth) might be sticking your nuts in a garbage disposal because you're afraid of testicular cancer.

But it makes them chippier, fresher, hammier....

 

[jmelm]

The conversation was specifically focused on if we traded Nisky who would be Scuderi's place holder. Someone who has never played an NHL game in his life would not be a better fit for our top four than someone who has played and excelled there in the past. I feel like you may be a little biased towards Harrington and Dumoulin to think they would be.

And I replied that I don`t think there is anyone in the AHL (Despres, Dumoulin or anyone else) who is a more suitable fill in for Scuderi than Niskanen. That`s why I think he won`t be traded.


I was speaking in the hypothetical that IF Niskanen was traded, who would be the right guy from WBS? And I don`t think that Despres is the guy, because has been outplayed by Dumoulin in the AHL this year and has not been dominant or completely consistent in that league. I think he`s not ready for a top 4 spot in the NHL and spending a year playing every game and big minutes in the AHL is exactly where he should be right now. And if there was another injury and we needed someone for a few games, I would sooner reward Dumoulin with that opportunity rather than just give it to Despres by default because he played in the NHL last year. Dumo is the better AHLer right now, IMO.

 

[JQR]

Edmonton for 2nd round picks in 2014 and 2015.

Edit: nvm, they don't have a 2nd round pick in 2014. I have no clue what they have to leverage.

 

[mpp9]

And I replied that I don`t think there is anyone in the AHL (Despres, Dumoulin or anyone else) who is a more suitable fill in for Scuderi than Niskanen. That`s why I think he won`t be traded.


I was speaking in the hypothetical that IF Niskanen was traded, who would be the right guy from WBS? And I don`t think that Despres is the guy, because has been outplayed by Dumoulin in the AHL this year and has not been dominant or completely consistent in that league. I think he`s not ready for a top 4 spot in the NHL and spending a year playing every game and big minutes in the AHL is exactly where he should be right now. And if there was another injury and we needed someone for a few games, I would sooner reward Dumoulin with that opportunity rather than just give it to Despres by default because he played in the NHL last year. Dumo is the better AHLer right now, IMO.

TD seems to disagree. I thought Despres was getting the go to shutdown role. Is Dumoulin at least getting similar minutes?

 

[jmelm]

TD seems to disagree. I thought Despres was getting the go to shutdown role. Is Dumoulin at least getting similar minutes?

TD has probably seen more games than me this year, so I will defer to him in that regard. But from what I have seen, the minutes are pretty evenly spread out between the pairs of Samuelsson-Despres, Mikkelson-Harrington, and Dumoulin with either D'Agostino or McNeill.

Dumoulin seems to, in particular, see a lot of PP time, whereas Despres has not been. Dumo has been playing on the first PP unit (along with a forward, Ebbett I think?), and Mikkelson and Harrington on unit #2. I'm actually surprised Despres isn't getting that opportunity, but I think they will give it to him once he shows more consistency at both ends of the rink. And it's nice to see Harrington get that time because I believe it's an underrated part of his game.

But Dumo is just the better all-around defensive Dman right now. It's possible the Pens might be grooming him to be more of a physical presence and shutdown type, but's not that player yet and it may take him a while to get there (or he may become trade bait). I just don't think Despres is at the level of consistency to be at to make one of our roster Dmen like Orpik or Nisky expendable. Certainly not this year, anyway.

I still envision Despres NHL upside and comparable as a guy like Kevin Bieksa: you don't consider him elite in any one area, but he can do a lot of things: play top-4 minutes, bring a physical element, be used on both special teams and against other teams top offensive players, and chip in some numbers. I don't see Despres being a clear cut #1 or possibly even #2 Dman in the NHL, and if he ever becomes the latter, it will be a long time from now.

As you can see, Maatta has passed Despres on the depth chart and his offensive game is much more likely to translate to the NHL level, and I think Harrington and Dumoulin might just end up being the guys we'd want to hold on to if we were looking at moving one of our young D in a trade. I think the fact that we've heard Despres name out there, and the fact that Maatta made the roster over Despres, despite Simon being on the team last season, speaks volumes about how the Pens feel about who their best D prospects are. Simon will be a good NHLer, but it may just take him a while to get there, and it may end up being with another organization.

 

[JTG]

TD's analysis of Dumoulin has me questioning Dumoulin's NHL potential.

 

[jmelm]

TD's analysis of Dumoulin has me questioning Dumoulin's NHL potential.

Fair enough, although my analysis of Despres' game in the NHL last year, and even at times in juniors, shows me there are warts in his game that could prevent him from being a top NHL Dman in the NHL, too. I don't think anyone doubts that he *can* play in the NHL, I think it's more of an issue as to whether he becomes a legitimate top-2/top-4 minute munching Dman who plays in all situations, or does he become consistent enough to be that top guy? Time will tell.

As far as Dumoulin: I look at him and I don't see any weaknesses in his game. Sure, he's not a huge physical presence like an Orpik, but he can skate, he can shoot, he shows a lot of smarts by being able to run the PP and gets time on the PK, and he just seems to look pretty smart and make good reads out there. Moves extremely well for a big man, too. He can carry/rush the puck up to some degree, he pinches into the play, he sometimes makes smart reads by pinching down to get into (better) shooting position or hangs on to the puck instead of just forcing shots through from the blueline. He's an impressive all-around player, and I'm sure there are reasons why he gets the minutes and plays in a situation he does.

And Tommy Fitzgerald was on Hockey Central at Noon on Sportsnet in Canada the other day and he specifically stated "with Dumoulin, Despres and Harrington, we have what they consider to be 3 "NHL defensemen playing in the AHL". So clearly the management and coaching staff is high on this kid to a fairly large degree. And didn't someone also tweet out recently during one of the games, which was one of the ones I saw too and echoed my sentiments, and said he though Dumoulin was the best player on the ice that night. So he's clearly impressed some people.

Anyway, it's pretty clear to me that one of these 2 players, Dumoulin and Despres, is going to get traded within the next 1-3 years. Which one will it be? It will depend on how well each of them plays.

 

[td_ice]

TD's analysis of Dumoulin has me questioning Dumoulin's NHL potential.

I do think he is going to be an NHL player. So I am excited for him in that regard. I just don't see top 4 upside so far. Not saying he can't improve, as I think he will. At the moment, I see him "good" at a lot things, but not really great at anything. The coaching staff seems very high on him, as he gets lots of ice time in all situations. So that is a good sign.

 

[HandshakeLine]

TD, what's the read on Despres' consistency? Bomboulie had an interesting article the other day talking about how the organization feels that Simon needs to become more consistent in order to really become a permanent fixture.

I read the piece and thought it sounded like they were trying to avoid the Letang Syndrome, where you let a very talented player (who could easily be in the NHL) develop bad, lazy habits. Does that seem to hold with your observations of him?

 

[td_ice]

TD, what's the read on Despres' consistency? Bomboulie had an interesting article the other day talking about how the organization feels that Simon needs to become more consistent in order to really become a permanent fixture.

I read the piece and thought it sounded like they were trying to avoid the Letang Syndrome, where you let a very talented player (who could easily be in the NHL) develop bad, lazy habits. Does that seem to hold with your observations of him?

Yeah, I guess so on the consistency factor. In terms of bad habits, ala Letang, there are times in which he is so confident in his play, that he will a make move/pass/pinch in which he is the last line of defense, and that will lead into a possible great scoring chance for the opposition. I will see that and just say, "ouch, the coach isn't going to like that one". If he is going to take those risks, he better be right as close to 100% of the time as he can. But it isn't as if those are a constant thing.

I know he has all the tools. He has the strength, the speed, and the hockey sense, so if the coaching staff is going nitpick his game, it is going to be that they want him to minimize/eliminate his mistakes as much as he can. But when I see his play, I definitely think he is the most capable of playing in the NHL at the moment. But it isn't like his play is so overwhelming that he is forcing an immediate call up. I would call his play so far, very solid. B+. Perhaps that just isn't good enough for his pedigree.

I just don't get why he isn't getting more PP time either. This isn't to bash Dumoulin, but I don't get why Dumoulin, and and guys like Ebbett or Mikkelson get PP time on the point over Despres. Dumoulin gets 1st unit PP time and has no goals and one PP assist in 9 games. Sorry, that's awful. (no goals and two assists total in 9 games) Dumoulin just doesn't have high end offensive vision or instincts. Last night when the Baby Pen's had a two man advantage, Hershey played a tight 3 man box very near the slot and net. Dumo didn't force them to move at all, and just looked pass the entire time, and the one time he did finally shoot it, was when he shouldn't have, and it never made it to the net. I just don't like Dumo's reads in the offensive end. So why he is getting all the PP time, I dunno.

Back to Despres, it is early in the season, and I think he is going to get his shot eventually this year with the big club.

 

[Houston Penguin]

How many teams have had our D prospect pool?

That pool meant exactly what last year? I'm not sure what that pool has to do with the playoffs this year?

 

[Houston Penguin]

Not to mention that, when healthy, only 2 rookies will be playing.

Scuds-Tang
Orpik-Martin

That is our top 4. How do people not understand this?

When healthy ... yeah, when has that happened recently for our top six defense?

One injury and we either have Engelland or a rookie d-man in the top four. Yeah umm no.

 

[Houston Penguin]

We're 12 games into the season, not 82. Scuds will be back around mid-season, so the POs aren't an issue right now. It's the perfect time to give Des ~30 games in the top 4 to see what he can do and if he can do it full time next year when Nisky and Oprik are hopefully gone.

Hasn't everyone treated the regular season as if it didn't matter here. We don't give Fleury credit because he's sure to flop in the playoffs. There's nothing wrong with getting Despres some time, but until he's better or the same as Niskanen, as a coach, I wouldn't make that move either to possibly endanger my team or my job. Whether we think Despres is or not doesn't matter.