Speculation: Spitballing destinations/returns for Niskanen

[IcedCapp]

Good post.

Two points:

1) We can miss Niskanen, if we're not also missing other puck moving defensemen and Letang is playing up to par. If the wheels fall off of Maatta (as they're likely to do) or (god forbid) Martin gets injured, we'd feel his absence, even with Despres up. Not because he's necessarily the best blueliners we have, but because he's got a pretty good complimentary skill set for our gameplan.

2) This is a problem, sure, but on the other hand, we tend to lose a LOT of defensemen over the course of the season. I think there's an argument to be made for keeping defensemen simply because it's a harder position for rookies and young players to adjust to on call-ups than wing or center.

I feel like you're genuinely not trolling me, and that's scaring me right now...

I agree with everything you're saying, I would just say that I feel like, for the team to have their best chance at winning, they need to balance that depth. I realize you can never have enough depth, but I don't think you can go into the playoffs worrying about your two best Dmen getting injured. It may happen, but sometimes that brings out the best in the younger kids. So they don't have to move him NOW, but I do think they have to move him at some point.

 

[HandshakeLine]

You gotta keep people off balance. Besides, this board kind of trolls itself really.

I agree with you, in that I think that this year we should gamble on that. However, I really think that the last 4-5 years have shown that we lose a lot of defensive depth over the season and into the playoffs. I agree that the wings are a problem. But whether or not they are the culprit for our lack of success against certain teams is pretty much up for debate.

What isn't is the damage a lack of puck moving defensemen do to Sid and Geno's game, I think. And this seems to be, as far as I can tell, the rationale behind having a surplus of those kind of defensemen-- not that we will eventually trade them for parts we need (though we probably will do so). It's more that big, plodding, slow defensemen who can't make a breakout pass aren't really going to fit in here.

Personally, I'd trade Engelland before Niskannen, all things being equal. But of course you go with the best return possible.

 

[Shady Machine]

Trading Engelland serves zero purpose, unless you are enamored with 4th round picks. All it does is leave Despres in the press box rather than the AHL. It also doesn't save cap space since any replacement player has a higher cap hit. If anything, it's counter productive.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Trading Engelland serves zero purpose, unless you are enamored with 4th round picks. All it does is leave Despres in the press box rather than the AHL. It also doesn't save cap space since any replacement player has a higher cap hit. If anything, it's counter productive.

To add to this, Engelland being a defenseman/winger now can help save us even more cap space because we could actually go with a 21-man roster when healthy and just one extra man (Engelland).

It totally is counter-productive.

 

[Ogrezilla]

We have plenty more D depth. We need to improve forward depth more than defense. Our best forward call-up is at best on par with a guy like Harrington, who is currently 4 injuries from being called up even with Scuds already out.

Moving Niskanen improves our depth where it needs improved while barely touching our depth where we are strong. It has the added bonus of allowing Despres to develop the way I believe he needs to develop, which is in the NHL.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

totes dude, defense is the only place you can have depth. If Neal is out, you don't have Kobasew, Dags, or Megna in the top-6!

Who needs forward depth when you can just put a Dman on the wing?

Personally, I can't wait till Engo - Malkin - Nisky is our 2nd line.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Good post.

Two points:

1) We can miss Niskanen, if we're not also missing other puck moving defensemen and Letang is playing up to par. If the wheels fall off of Maatta (as they're likely to do) or (god forbid) Martin gets injured, we'd feel his absence, even with Despres up. Not because he's necessarily the best blueliners we have, but because he's got a pretty good complimentary skill set for our gameplan.

2) This is a problem, sure, but on the other hand, we tend to lose a LOT of defensemen over the course of the season. I think there's an argument to be made for keeping defensemen simply because it's a harder position for rookies and young players to adjust to on call-ups than wing or center.

We have arguably 11 NHL Dmen right now. We can survive 2-3 injuries to our top 6 and be fine for the Reg season. I just don't see the argument for exclusively drafting Dmen for years then holding onto a 2.3M insurance policy in case 2 Dmen get hurt just so you don't have to play your young guys. Especially when we've seen that 2 injuries to our forwards puts Kobe or D'Ags on Malkin's line.

And TBH, id Letang, Scuds and Martin all go down in the POs Nisky is not gonna make up for their loss anyway.

This team would be much better off moving a Dman for forward depth right now, IMO.

 

[Captain Hook]

I kind of like what Engelland brings as a forward. He shouldn't play every game or anything but he's a nice physical presence to add to your lineup against certain teams.

He was the same as a D-Man but they really just don't need him back there any more barring an in game emergency or run of injuries.

 

[mpp9]

Yeah Engelland has a role with this team. #7D/13th forward. At near league minimum. When we're healthy on D, move Nisky. When we're set at forward, move Jeffrey.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Tanner Glass and Craig Adams are currently our 3rd line wings while we have converted Engelland to wing for the 4th line. It would take three more injuries for us to play Dumoulin, who many believe was close to ready for the NHL going in to last season.

That really says everything that needs to be said about our current injury situation. The depth or injury argument completely favors trading Niskanen for a forward asap.

 

[Captain Hook]

I think they might trade Niskanen at some point if they can ever get and keep all the top 4 D-Men healthy at the same time for a stretch. Niskanen is going to be here throughout the Scuderi injury though and that's going to be a while. I don't think they want to play Maatta or Bortuzzo in the top 4 just yet.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think they might trade Niskanen at some point if they can ever get and keep all the top 4 D-Men healthy at the same time for a stretch. Niskanen is going to be here throughout the Scuderi injury though and that's going to be a while. I don't think they want to play Maatta or Bortuzzo in the top 4 just yet.

I don't want them to play Maatta or Bortuzzo in the top 4 yet either. I want to play Despres there.

 

[Captain Hook]

I don't want them to play Maatta or Bortuzzo in the top 4 yet either. I want to play Despres there.

Agreed on Bortuzzo and Maatta. Those two should be kept together on that bottom pair for now. I think they have good chemistry as a pair. Not sold on Letang and Niskanen being a good pair but we'll see.

I don't know what to say about Despres. I can't say he can't play in the top 4 right now because the Pens themselves seemed to be planning for that to happen before Scuderi was willing to come back to the Burgh. Despres seems to be doing well enough in WBS too.

I just don't think the Pens want to move Niskanen right now. The only scenario I see Niskanen being dealt before Scuderi returns is if Nisky bombs in the top 4 again, but at that point his value would become minimal, if any. They'd probably have to move him now to get the most value since he's played so well to start the season. Again, I just don't get the sense that they want to move him right now.

 

[IcedCapp]

The weird thing about Engelland is I actually like him in the Glass role better than Glass. He throws vicious hits and he's always in good position. He just has no hands.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

The weird thing about Engelland is I actually like him in the Glass role better than Glass. He throws vicious hits and he's always in good position. He just has no hands.

Me as well. He is like a third defenseman when he is out on the ice. He covers for defensemen whenever they are on a rush, or pinching.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Oilers, a team with horrible defensemen, are desperate apparently. But not desperate enough to trade for Niskanen, who could end up being one of their best defensemen and mostly because that group sucks, outside of Smid who is a solid defensive defenseman.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Oilers, a team with horrible defensemen, are desperate apparently. But not desperate enough to trade for Niskanen, who could end up being one of their best defensemen and mostly because that group sucks, outside of Smid who is a solid defensive defenseman.

Nisky would probably fit pretty well with Smid. But not as a top pairing guy. I can see why they wouldn't want to give up a lot for him. Nisky is a complimentary piece who would do very little to give them a legitimate defense. Where would he be, next to Ferrence on the 2nd pair? He'd be OK there. It depends what we'd be asking.

 

[IcedCapp]

While Nisky may not be worth a lot, Oilers fans never give up anything of any significance for any player.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I kind of like what Engelland brings as a forward. He shouldn't play every game or anything but he's a nice physical presence to add to your lineup against certain teams.

He was the same as a D-Man but they really just don't need him back there any more barring an in game emergency or run of injuries.

His offensive abilities as a defenseman weren't bad either for a player of his ilk.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

RRP I'm legitimately curious what your d lines would be if we do get fully healthy. I personally would go with

Scuds-Letang
Orpik-Martin
Maatta-Bortuzzo
Niskanen

I just don't see how Maatta-Niskanen is at all a good idea. I think Niskanen-Bortuzzo would be a solid 3rd pairing, but that makes it a really stupid move to keep Maatta up. Right now I can understand Niskanen being here. But if we get healthy, who do you sit? I pick Nisky unless Maatta regresses significantly.

Me too. When Letang finally got healthy I advocated dealing Niskanen, and if our blueline is healthy when Scuds returns, I'll want him dealt again.

I just don't think it's a good idea right now.

Exactly. What a weird response.

There's nothing weird about it.

There are a lot of unknowns that come with being a rookie, so icing half a blueline of rookies isn't a smart idea for a contender. Which is probably why no contender ever does it.

I know its tough for a Hockey's Future board to process, but showing you can perform ~20 minutes a night at the NHL level for a full season still counts for something.

When did we ever do what Chicago did: win the Cup and trade several important pieces? We couldn't even part with Bill Guerin after winning the Cup.

You aren't following. I'm talking about the Hawks staying the course after consecutive 1st round exits.

Boston won the Cup the year after their embarrassment. We're running on four straight embarrassments. What are we talking about here?

No. We just had a lengthy thread where that was refuted.

Why do you keep calling Des a rookie? He's played 57 NHL games over the past 2 seasons and has been called a top 4 Dman by DB.

Whatever you want to call him, the most he's played in an NHL campaign is 33 games, which isn't even half a season.

I know you want to call prospects who haven't even played an NHL game "NHL defensemen", but it's not wise to ice a blueline with 3 guys who've never even played half a season.

The only reason Nisky looked good in the top 4 at the beginning of the year is because he had Scuds there to babysit for him. Now that he's not playing with Scuds he doesn't look too hot.

That's just plain false.

And the fact that the Pens have 3 guys on expiring contracts is more reason to play rookies, not an argument against playing them. We'll need guys to take their mins next year or we'll just fall back into "we cant play this guy, he doesn't have enough experience" mode. If Des doesn't get NHL games this year Shero's gonna re-sign one of Orpik/Nisky this summer, which is a mistake.

Maatta and Bortuzzo will likely have shown they can handle the rigours of a full season by then. And injuries may yet put Despres into extended NHL action.

 

[cygnus47]

His offensive abilities as a defenseman weren't bad either for a player of his ilk.

He is good at getting simple shots through to the net. Letang can't do that.

 

[Ogrezilla]

He is good at getting simple shots through to the net. Letang can't do that.

Let's be fair here. Other teams defend against Letang's shot. They defend everything else and let Engo take the shot. If Letang was defended the way Engelland is defended he'd be a 30 goal scorer.

 

[jmelm]

I don't want them to play Maatta or Bortuzzo in the top 4 yet either. I want to play Despres there.

I don't want to play Despres in the top 4, either. I'd actually rather have either of the other 2 guys there (even though I don't want that either), and also think Dumoulin is more consistent and therefore ready for that role. Heck, even on a short-term basis, given his propensity to raise his game when it matters most, I bet Harrington wouldn't look out of place there. But if I had to pick amongst those guys, I would bring up Dumoulin and let him and Maatta battle it out for who plays with Bort and who plays with Letang.

But getting back to reality: we're just going to keep Niskanen there until Scuderi returns...unless there was another injury, which I certainly hope is not the case. Our adversity level is fine where it is right now.

Oilers, a team with horrible defensemen, are desperate apparently. But not desperate enough to trade for Niskanen, who could end up being one of their best defensemen and mostly because that group sucks, outside of Smid who is a solid defensive defenseman.

I think this is more of an issue of Niskanen being an impending UFA, than being a guy that the Oilers are "allegedly" not interest in. (And I say allegedly because I'm sure any mention of that team not being interested is coming solely from posters on this board, who frankly know ******* all about what their scouts and management actually think).

If Niksy was a kid from Canada, or we were talking about trading him to a team like Minnesota (i.e. if they had a higher degree of confidence in their ability to sign him), or if he had years left of him contract, it would be a different story. If I'm EDM, I'm guessing the chances of re-signing him are not that great.

Nisky is, indeed, a guy who can help a lot of teams (including ours right now, BTW), but the Oilers in particular are screaming for a veteran Dman. Ferrence was a nice add, but they need another, older veteran Dman. A guy like Dan Boyle would be a fantastic summer addition for that team. But EDM actually has some really good depth in their blueline pipeline. They just need a couple of years for those guys to mature, and perhaps another veteran like a Scuderi or Orpik or Boyle to help bring them along.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I don't want to play Despres in the top 4, either. I'd actually rather have either of the other 2 guys there (even though I don't want that either), and also think Dumoulin is more consistent and therefore ready for that role. Heck, even on a short-term basis, given his propensity to raise his game when it matters most, I bet Harrington wouldn't look out of place there. But if I had to pick amongst those guys, I would bring up Dumoulin and let him and Maatta battle it out for who plays with Bort and who plays with Letang.

Personally of all the players you mentioned, I think it makes the most sense to play the one who has played with (and looked damn good next to) Letang in the past rather than breaking up a pairing with great chemistry that very clearly works or having a guy with absolutely no NHL experience play in our top four.

Saying that Dumoulin or Harrington would be a better fit next to Letang right now than Despres is kind of baffling to me.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Nisky would probably fit pretty well with Smid. But not as a top pairing guy. I can see why they wouldn't want to give up a lot for him. Nisky is a complimentary piece who would do very little to give them a legitimate defense. Where would he be, next to Ferrence on the 2nd pair? He'd be OK there. It depends what we'd be asking.

Oilers fans are beyond delusional. So let's not go and ask them what they think they can give up for Niskanen and yeah, he's a complimentary type of guy, but with the right partner, he's effective. He was ok with Scuds, but with Letang, it's like watching a trainwreck in slow motion without the tv remote anywhere to be found.

With Smid, they would have a solid 2nd pairing or 3rd pairing, but they'd finally have some decent depth.

This is the Oilers we are talking about, Potter was one of their better defensemen not so long ago, they're THAT bad.

Remember when we'd have to give up Jordan Staal to get Ales Hemsky? Then MacT tried to move him this summer and couldn't, so he spun the whole let's keep him crap? Lol, yeah, good ol' Oilers fans, the type of fans that are happy to draft a skilled winger, then watch their team butcher his confidence and potential and then proclaim they are happy he's a solid 3rd liner and they wouldn't trade him for anything...then he gets traded.