Speculation: Spitballing destinations/returns for Niskanen

[Ogrezilla]

i just want to see niskanen gone. he has no upside, he makes a lot of money, he folds when teams forecheck hard/play physical (ie when the games really matter), and the pens have young players to replace him.

It's expensive for a Matt Niskanen, though.

I don't think I've ever agreed with either of you as much as I do on this topic

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don't I've ever agreed with either of you as much as I do on this topic

The Nisky Connection.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The Nisky Connection.

so I shouldn't expect it to hold up under pressure?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Did you even read what I said? I said that I hope Kuhn gets ANY look this year, as in on the 3rd line. In the long run, I think he fits in better on Sid's RW. Playing Kuhnhackl over Dupuis or Kunitz is beyond stupid. I swear, people here make up stuff that other people say to get themselves pissed off.

Also, who gives a crap if a player is a rookie? If they can play, let them play. There isn't a set number of rookies that a team is allowed to play. Last year, the Hawks had on their everyday roster (games before last year):

Saad (2 career games)
Hayes (31 career games)
Kruger (78 career games)
Shaw (37 career games)

Those all played significant roles on the Hawks last year, and they won the cup. On the 2010 Hawks cup team, they had these players with less than 100 career games before 09-10:

Versteeg (91 career games)
Brouwer (81 career games)
Hjalmarsson (34 career games)
Bickell (5 career games)
Niemi (3 career games)

Niemi was huge in the Hawks cup win in 2010, and he had 3 CAREER GAMES before that season. Having Bortuzzo, Maatta, Despres and Bennett on our everyday roster when healthy is no problem to have. If they can play, let them freaking play.

On what planet are these rookies? These guys had previously played full seasons, and in Brouwer and Versteeg's case, 3 full playoff rounds.

It's not nearly as simple as "letting them play" if they've shown that they're pretty good over a miniscule sample size.

Have you ever heard the phrase "excellence is not an act but a habit"? That could not be more relevant here. The NHL season is a grind that has worn many rookies down, including some much more talented than any prospect in our pipeline, like our very own Evgeni Malkin. Overloading the roster with unknown quantities over the long haul is a gamble a contender should not be making, no matter how they've performed over 8 freaking AHL games.

Semantics aside, that wasn't any fault of their own and their play merited more games. It was the wrong decision to not play them then and its bearing its fruits now.

Can't change the past. The fact is that the games weren't played, and Despres has since been jumped on the depth chart.

When you can't win the ultimate prize, you overhaul as quickly as possible. It's always better to be bad than mediocre in professional sports. And we are now the definition of mediocre...good regular seasons, virtually nothing in the postseason (oh yeah, how could I forget about our blood-clot-ridden backup goaltender saving our collective ***** last spring. My bad).

Good thing Chicago didn't do that after consecutive first round exits, or Boston after they suffered a more embarrassing playoff loss in 2010 than we've ever seen.

A good portion of our fanbase is spoiled, impatient, and solipsistic. Looking around the league, quality teams have had much more success identifying successful parts and replacing complementary pieces than going for a major overhaul. Any idiot can blow a team up.

Okay so we don't acquire Scuds and Vokoun doesn't get injured, who is in your top 6?

Orpik-Martin
Despres-Letang
Bortuzzo-Niskanen

That's 2 rookies in the top 6 and one injury would have resulted in a 3rd. That's the same damn scenario. Then we sign Scuds and if Voky doesn't get hurt, Niskanen had to leave (or Glass + someone or Jokinen).

Orpik-Martin
Scuds-Letang
Bortuzzo-Maatta

Then Scuds goes down and now you have 3 rookies in the top 6 again. My point is you are trying to make it sound like you were cool with Despres in the top 4 when in reality one injury would have led to the situation you are arguing against now. So it sounds like you weren't really cool with it.

I'm fine with either situation. What you are advocating is willingly trading Niskanen after a Scuds injury.

You would put that 3rd rookie on the defense now, by design. That's the difference.

Also, RRP, if fielding the best roster possible was that important in the first month of the season, why aren't you demanding that Shero go out and sign Bryz to replace Zatk?

When I'm talking about icing the best roster, I'm clearly talking about players we actually have signed, that fit within our cap structure.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If three rookies are good enough to play, I don't see the problem with playing three rookies.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

We cannot afford to take salary back. Nor does a contending team do that. We need every cent to be productive for us going into the playoffs.

So the guy we get for Nisky, somehow, won't be around for the POs?

Just because it's not the TDL doesn't mean a move mad today won't help in the POs.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

When I'm talking about icing the best roster, I'm clearly talking about players we actually have signed, that fit within our cap structure.

How is that clear? We're talking about making a trade and promoting Des, which you poo poo because it wouldn't be "dressing the best roster".

I would think you would love the idea of replacing Zat with Bryz. He'd prolly sign for close to what Zat makes as he has no other options.


I also love how you defend Shero/DB not playing Des because he doesn't have enough experience when they both ****ed Des with Eaton last year. At some point your boys are gonna have to play these Dmen.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

How is that clear? We're talking about making a trade and promoting Des, which you poo poo because it wouldn't be "dressing the best roster".

Where did I ever say that? I said that I didn't want to trade Niskanen because he's proven to give us 20 solid minutes a night and there are already 2 rookie defensemen on the roster.

Not to mention, you can't dress what you don't have.

I would think you would love the idea of replacing Zat with Bryz. He'd prolly sign for close to what Zat makes as he has no other options.

We have no idea what he'd ask for.

I also love how you defend Shero/DB not playing Des because he doesn't have enough experience when they both ****ed Des with Eaton last year. At some point your boys are gonna have to play these Dmen.

We are already playing 2 rookie defensemen.

We have 3 expiring contracts on defense this summer.

 

[JTG]

So the guy we get for Nisky, somehow, won't be around for the POs?

Just because it's not the TDL doesn't mean a move mad today won't help in the POs.

Did you read the post?

 

[Ogrezilla]

RRP I'm legitimately curious what your d lines would be if we do get fully healthy. I personally would go with

Scuds-Letang
Orpik-Martin
Maatta-Bortuzzo
Niskanen

I just don't see how Maatta-Niskanen is at all a good idea. I think Niskanen-Bortuzzo would be a solid 3rd pairing, but that makes it a really stupid move to keep Maatta up. Right now I can understand Niskanen being here. But if we get healthy, who do you sit? I pick Nisky unless Maatta regresses significantly.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

so I shouldn't expect it to hold up under pressure?

I don't know, but that's an awesome song reference right there. One of my all-time favorites.

Good thing Chicago didn't do that after consecutive first round exits, or Boston after they suffered a more embarrassing playoff loss in 2010 than we've ever seen.

A good portion of our fanbase is spoiled, impatient, and solipsistic. Looking around the league, quality teams have had much more success identifying successful parts and replacing complementary pieces than going for a major overhaul. Any idiot can blow a team up.

When did we ever do what Chicago did: win the Cup and trade several important pieces? We couldn't even part with Bill Guerin after winning the Cup.

Boston won the Cup the year after their embarrassment. We're running on four straight embarrassments. What are we talking about here?

 

[IcedCapp]

It's expensive for a Matt Niskanen, though.

(I know... that's my point)

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Where did I ever say that? I said that I didn't want to trade Niskanen because he's proven to give us 20 solid minutes a night and there are already 2 rookie defensemen on the roster.

Not to mention, you can't dress what you don't have.


We have no idea what he'd ask for.


We are already playing 2 rookie defensemen.

We have 3 expiring contracts on defense this summer.

Why do you keep calling Des a rookie? He's played 57 NHL games over the past 2 seasons and has been called a top 4 Dman by DB.

You also are overrating Nisky and underrating Des. Most believe that Des can step in and take Nisky's min right now. And even if he isn't better than Nisky now, he will be by the time the POs are here. Not to mention that Tang and Des looked great last year.

The only reason Nisky looked good in the top 4 at the beginning of the year is because he had Scuds there to babysit for him. Now that he's not playing with Scuds he doesn't look too hot.

Who the F cares that there are already 2 rookies playing? You do know that there is no maximum number of rookies allowed to dress, right?

And the fact that the Pens have 3 guys on expiring contracts is more reason to play rookies, not an argument against playing them. We'll need guys to take their mins next year or we'll just fall back into "we cant play this guy, he doesn't have enough experience" mode. If Des doesn't get NHL games this year Shero's gonna re-sign one of Orpik/Nisky this summer, which is a mistake.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

When did we ever do what Chicago did: win the Cup and trade several important pieces? We couldn't even part with Bill Guerin after winning the Cup.

Boston won the Cup the year after their embarrassment. We're running on four straight embarrassments. What are we talking about here?

Wrong.

We're running on four straight successes. Winning 3 PO series in 4 years after the Cup is pretty much the definition of success.

 

[rkhum]

Uh isn't trading inks ya dream right now due to our injuries?

In any event Nicky for Hiller near the deadline if Vokoun is still out.

 

[KIRK]

Uh isn't trading inks ya dream right now due to our injuries?

In any event Nicky for Hiller near the deadline if Vokoun is still out.

Can the Pens take the 500-600K hit ?

EDIT: Guess they can if Vokoun can't return.

 

[MrBurghundy]

If three rookies are good enough to play, I don't see the problem with playing three rookies.

Seriously.

 

[Shady Machine]

If three rookies are good enough to play, I don't see the problem with playing three rookies.

Exactly. What a weird response.

 

[PensPlz]

I don't think we'll ever be fully healthy to worry about trading Nisky anymore. As soon as Scuds is back, Orpik's leg will fall off or Martin will spontaneously combust and be out 4-6 weeks. Or maybe I'm just jaded.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I don't think we'll ever be fully healthy to worry about trading Nisky anymore. As soon as Scuds is back, Orpik's leg will fall off or Martin will spontaneously combust and be out 4-6 weeks. Or maybe I'm just jaded.

You know, normally, this is just called "depth". But here, it's a sin against humanity and whatever.

 

[IcedCapp]

You know, normally, this is just called "depth". But here, it's a sin against humanity and whatever.

totes dude, defense is the only place you can have depth. If Neal is out, you don't have Kobasew, Dags, or Megna in the top-6!

 

[HandshakeLine]

totes dude, defense is the only place you can have depth. If Neal is out, you don't have Kobasew, Dags, or Megna in the top-6!

Which is a fair point, but there's an even better one behind that:

You can't have depth everywhere. Nobody has enough depth in all of their positions, especially not nowadays in the league.

So, given that, what do you prioritize? How do you prioritize it? Do you think that, with Letang's injury history, Oprik's physical style, Scuderi's age, and the grind of the season on Maatta, that we won't need depth there? Or do you decide that run and gun is the way to go? Do you think that experience is more valuable on the backend, or is it just something that doesn't exist?

These are questions that aren't being answered, but are obvious to anyone who wants to analyze the situation beyond "we have defensemen, why shero stupid?"

 

[IcedCapp]

Which is a fair point, but there's an even better one behind that:

You can't have depth everywhere. Nobody has enough depth in all of their positions, especially not nowadays in the league.

So, given that, what do you prioritize? How do you prioritize it? Do you think that, with Letang's injury history, Oprik's physical style, Scuderi's age, and the grind of the season on Maatta, that we won't need depth there? Or do you decide that run and gun is the way to go? Do you think that experience is more valuable on the backend, or is it just something that doesn't exist?

These are questions that aren't being answered, but are obvious to anyone who wants to analyze the situation beyond "we have defensemen, why shero stupid?"

I think you prioritize defensive depth for sure, but I would also say the Penguins defensive depth is vastly superior to their offensive depth, as evidence by the fact that missing James Neal TOTALLY kills their scoring.

Yes, Beau Bennett is also injured, but he's not a finisher. If Crosby and Malkin aren't scoring, you're just scraping by. With Neal out another 3 weeks, they could use some forward depth.

You can miss Scuderi and be fine. You can miss Niskanen and be fine. You can probably miss one more player on top of that and be OK, in the regular season.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but I just feel like the depth is a bit too heavily weighted on the defensive side of the equation.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think you prioritize defensive depth for sure, but I would also say the Penguins defensive depth is vastly superior to their offensive depth, as evidence by the fact that missing James Neal TOTALLY kills their scoring.

Yes, Beau Bennett is also injured, but he's not a finisher. If Crosby and Malkin aren't scoring, you're just scraping by. With Neal out another 3 weeks, they could use some forward depth.

You can miss Scuderi and be fine. You can miss Niskanen and be fine. You can probably miss one more player on top of that and be OK, in the regular season.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but I just feel like the depth is a bit too heavily weighted on the defensive side of the equation.

Yup. Not to mention, it will take 2 injuries, maybe 3 to even give Despres, the "top 4 dman", a look in the NHL this year. That's significant depth.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think you prioritize defensive depth for sure, but I would also say the Penguins defensive depth is vastly superior to their offensive depth, as evidence by the fact that missing James Neal TOTALLY kills their scoring.

Yes, Beau Bennett is also injured, but he's not a finisher. If Crosby and Malkin aren't scoring, you're just scraping by. With Neal out another 3 weeks, they could use some forward depth.

You can miss Scuderi and be fine. You can miss Niskanen and be fine. You can probably miss one more player on top of that and be OK, in the regular season.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but I just feel like the depth is a bit too heavily weighted on the defensive side of the equation.

Good post.

Two points:

1) We can miss Niskanen, if we're not also missing other puck moving defensemen and Letang is playing up to par. If the wheels fall off of Maatta (as they're likely to do) or (god forbid) Martin gets injured, we'd feel his absence, even with Despres up. Not because he's necessarily the best blueliners we have, but because he's got a pretty good complimentary skill set for our gameplan.

2) This is a problem, sure, but on the other hand, we tend to lose a LOT of defensemen over the course of the season. I think there's an argument to be made for keeping defensemen simply because it's a harder position for rookies and young players to adjust to on call-ups than wing or center.