Soccer Prospect Discussion Thread IV

[Il Mediano]

He works his ass off. He has that Ronaldo mentality, nothing wrong there.

It's because Kluivert only played a handful of quality games for Ajax. He barely was a starter and already he wanted to look abroad. Played hardball with Ajax, too. Basically handcuffed Ajax so that they also couldn't ask for more than the 21M they got. Just a cocky dude. A few days into his Roma career he already mentioned Barca was next. Promised stuff for Ajax he couldn't realize. Showboater on the pitch. Acts way over his head vs some of the more respected players of the competition.

Talented, yes. But overrated.

Yeah, if you're judging his potential based on the fact he wanted to leave Ajax , I wouldn't really call that wise.

He mentioned Barca was his dream club (when asked) because his dad played there. No one in Rome cared, it's not a big deal. Schick said the same thing last season, and he's not a cocky dude with bad work ethic.

He's 19, I'm not sure what unrealized promises he was supposed to fulfill for Ajax.

He hasn't showboated once in pre-season , and Strootman has taken him under his wing/has nothing but praise for the kid.

I'm not seeing this "overrated" , he's genuinely been one of our best players in pre-season and many are calling for him to be a starter for the 1st game already.

 

[YNWA14]

You can't compare a successful season in the Jupiler League (now the Keuken Kampioen divisie) with Dolberg's rookie season, in which he scored 16 goals and 6 assists, to go along with another 6 goals in the Europa League, reaching the finals - as an 18/19 year old. That's insane. Groeneveld scored 8 goals and added 12 assists last season, but the second division of Holland is really putrid. His true upside will be more on display now that he plays for a top side in Belgium, but he has nothing going for him to be ahead of Dolberg, though I really think he can close the gap. PSV actually tried to get him back last season, leading to some cocky remarks from Groeneveld which he went public with. There are some concerns regarding his attitude. I like his upside, but I am taking Dolberg or Bergwijn here. Neres I'm not sure on.

I wasn't referencing their production, but the way they impacted the games they were playing. It was the skills, the decisions and the athleticism that stood out. We'll see moving forward, but he's already hit the ground running with Brugge and stood out instantly on the u21 team.

Eiting is cracking a midfield which has Frenkie de Jong, Daley Blind, Lasse Schöne, Hakim Ziyech, Zakaria Labyad, Dusan Tadic, Donnie van de Beek, Daley Sinkgraven, Siem de Jong and Noa Lang all fighting for a spot. He's not only cracking it, but playing like he's been a regular for years. Some are playing out of position just because it is so crowded (Blind, Frenkie de Jong, Labyad, Tadic) or will leave because of it (Siem de Jong). Rigo is struggling to out perform the likes of Ramselaar, Hendrix and Rosario. They even bought Ryan Thomas (fine player, btw), to play at his position. Again, PSV sucks at developing its youth and this plays a huge part in whether players will reach their upside.

The thing is that he's not really directly competing with the best players on that list for a spot, and most of the players on that list aren't even very good. Big names, but overrated (like Ziyech has become). The fact that Schone still plays regularly for the Ajax midfield speaks volumes of that team's slump in quality. Rigo hasn't really been given a chance because of Cocu's anti-youth approach and PSV's lack of development in general. I hope that this will change this season with van Bommel at the helm. I really hope Eiting ends up the better player, but Rigo is more talented and has been better at every stage.

PSV also has not been comfortably better than Ajax these past years. During the past 3 seasons, PSV only managed to get one point more than Ajax. The race is always close. Ajax, especially this season, has a much better squad, on paper, than PSV.

I mean, PSV has won the title 3 of the last 4 years and Ajax has won 0. Even if the title race has been close-ish, PSV has been obviously better and more consistent on the pitch.

Agree about Chong's IQ. When I watch him he not always knows what he's about to do beforehand. I definitely feel his upside is higher than that of Kluivert (overrated) and Obispo (reasons mentioned above). And no scout or coach feel he's better than de Ligt. That was Aad de Mos, a former coach and wannabe analist for Ziggo sport. In fact, he stated yesterday that de Ligt is now much further along because of PSV inability to develop their youth, which I agree on (link: De Mos adviseert huurtransfer PSV: 'Of naar België, zou ook een goed idee zijn'). He wants him loaned out because of it.

I was talking about people I know of, not just one former coach. I also wasn't saying he was better now, but that some feel he has more potential. I agree about PSV's youth development though...it's been really bad.

And yes Nunnely took a little dive these past years. He re-signed with Ajax when he could've signed for every big team in Europa then. Still a legit talent.

Yeah, and he's still young there's a lot of time there to turn it around and make good on it.

Gravenberch is just a one dimensional player right now, albeit a very good one, but I feel he can be so much more special when he uses his lanky frame much more in his advantage. At CM for example. He'll probably get a look there anyway. Most players go through multiple positions before settling somewhere. Cruijff wants every player to play and know every position before you're locked in for one.

I think he's been playing CM for the most part; he definitely likes to get forward a lot but I agree I'm hoping his future is as an 8 where he can truly dominate the game.

 

[Islesfan22]

Giovanni Reyna son of Claudio going to Dortmund.

 

[Ajacied]

Yeah, if you're judging his potential based on the fact he wanted to leave Ajax , I wouldn't really call that wise.

I didn't? I am calling him overrated because he only played 3/4 quality games and barely cracked the first team as a regular. I think that combined with his mis placed arrogance definitely lower my expectations for him. He isn't well liked in Amsterdam anymore, but I hope he turns out well and am happy to hear he's doing fine for Roma so far. Oranje could use him on the wing in the near future.

He mentioned Barca was his dream club (when asked) because his dad played there. No one in Rome cared, it's not a big deal. Schick said the same thing last season, and he's not a cocky dude with bad work ethic.

He is more cocky than Zlatan Ibrahimovic, but you're right, his work ethic is just fine. Nothing wrong with that.

He hasn't showboated once in pre-season , and Strootman has taken him under his wing/has nothing but praise for the kid.

That's genuinely good to hear. I think Strootman can be just what his development needs.

I'm not seeing this "overrated" , he's genuinely been one of our best players in pre-season and many are calling for him to be a starter for the 1st game already.

Kluivert has been getting a lot of international praise, much moreso than nationally. He mostly attracts some attention because of his name, rather than his play on the pitch. Even winning 'best teenager' awards and finishing 6th in another talent race. Over the likes of Donnarumma, Vinicius Junior and de Ligt for instance. Doesn't mean a whole lot, but it does show he's hyped a lot.

 

[Ajacied]

I wasn't referencing their production, but the way they impacted the games they were playing. It was the skills, the decisions and the athleticism that stood out. We'll see moving forward, but he's already hit the ground running with Brugge and stood out instantly on the u21 team.

Yeah, I hope he does well. He scored two nice, individual goals vs Kortrijk I believe. Definitely going to watch Brugge's Champions League games. That's a huge step up from games in the Keuken Kampioen Divisie, so it will be interesting to see if he holds up.

The thing is that he's not really directly competing with the best players on that list for a spot, and most of the players on that list aren't even very good. Big names, but overrated (like Ziyech has become). The fact that Schone still plays regularly for the Ajax midfield speaks volumes of that team's slump in quality. Rigo hasn't really been given a chance because of Cocu's anti-youth approach and PSV's lack of development in general. I hope that this will change this season with van Bommel at the helm. I really hope Eiting ends up the better player, but Rigo is more talented and has been better at every stage.

Eh wait a minute. Agree on Schöne; Ten Hag wants an experienced vet at every line. Schöne plays a mistake free and decent all-round game, but he's slow and should be replaced with Donnie, who's now on the bench. But, Ziyech is all but overrated. That's the first I've read anything like this. He endures a lot of unfair criticism from some of the Ultra's because of some remarks he made, but the fact that he still plays in the Eredivisie is nothing short of a miracle.

Just some facts for you:

• Leads the league in points (goals + assists) since he made his Heerenveen debut in 2013.
• Lead the league in assists last season, with 15, for the 3rd time.
• Lead the league in created chances with 143 last season. The second best had 95.
• Lead the league in shots last season.
• Conquered more balls than anyone else last season, with 280. Second best (El Ahmadi) had 249
• Had the most successful dribbles last season with 215. Second best (Jahanbakhsh) had 195
• Scores easily. His 18 goals in 2016 are among the highest scored by a midfielder.
• Was named Eredivisie player of the year for a reason.

Granted it's the Eredivisie, but overrated by whom exactly? He's rarely talked about internationally and even here he gets some slack for being nonchalant and lackluster, which he isn't. He just has a "I don't care what the media and fans think about me - attitude" and some hold it against him. Just watch his most recent game vs Luik and you won't be making these ridiculous claims anymore. He did have a poor showing at the WC, I'll give you that. But Morocco is a mess in general, yet he still has accumulated 9 goals and 6 assists in just 21 games for them.

Rigo and Eiting are not separated by a whole lot, seeing the grades I gave them. Eiting just has a head start and Rigo a disadvantage playing for PSV. Should be nice to keep an eye out for.

I mean, PSV has won the title 3 of the last 4 years and Ajax has won 0. Even if the title race has been close-ish, PSV has been obviously better and more consistent on the pitch.

Agreed. PSV has been more consistent, had a better system in place and was well coached during these years. Ajax just had the better rosters and showed greater promise under Bosz.

I was talking about people I know of, not just one former coach. I also wasn't saying he was better now, but that some feel he has more potential. I agree about PSV's youth development though...it's been really bad.

I would like to read some of those opinions. Obispo having more potential than arguably the best defensive talent in the world sounds rather optimistic.

I think he's been playing CM for the most part; he definitely likes to get forward a lot but I agree I'm hoping his future is as an 8 where he can truly dominate the game.

I've seen him listed as a CM a lot, but that's false. He plays AM and is a pure playmaker.

 

[YNWA14]

Regardless of our differences in opinion I'm happy to read your takes @Ajacied; I think we can both hope for this coming generation to wipe our memories of this one. It's inevitable for a country like the Netherlands to go through these lulls I guess, but I'm really excited by the prospect of our national team having all of Unuvar, Simons, Gravenberch, Redan, de Ligt, Obispo, Bakker, Eiting, de Jong, Kluivert, etc. etc. in their primes playing together. There are always some who don't end up making it on their talent but it seems like there's much more talent in the pipeline from this coming generation of players (the spread from 97 to '02 has a lot to look forward to).

 

[Savant]

Liverpool beat Chelsea, United & City to sign Ajax teenager

 

[JeffreyLFC]

It's not that low when you consider it's what they got for Richarlison (12,5M + 10% over Watford's profit in a new sell). Pedro being a late bloomer with no youth NT caps doesn't help, either. If he gets called up by Tite next Friday his value should skyrocket.

I like him a lot, he's a very underrated passer too. That pass was fantastic:

He just got called up!! Same with Paqueta!

Any chance he gets a UK work permit with this callup and some of the big premier league club get him?

 

[Ajacied]

Crap. I was already worried about him since he was one of few who didn't have a contract yet. Did not know so many big clubs were after him, seeing as he didn't make the cut for Oranje U16 this past spring.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Gouiri tears his ACL.

 

[John Pedro]

He just got called up!! Same with Paqueta!

Any chance he gets a UK work permit with this callup and some of the big premier league club get him?

I really don't have any clue about UK work permits and how it works. I feel like he should as Richarlison did with just u20 caps.

 

[Savant]

The only way to guarantee a work permit is to be Alex Ferguson . There is no unified criteria except that.

 

[John Pedro]

Rodrygo scored again today, 6 goals in 16.

 

[Cassano]

He is hailed as the next Eddie Nketiah - take that for what you will.

 

[Il Mediano]

Kluivert's debut. Came on in the 70th minute and completely changed the complexion of the match for Roma , whilst providing the game winning assist.

Overrated. Overhyped.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He is hailed as the next Eddie Nketiah - take that for what you will.

He's already provisionally cap-tied to England, so he'd need to file a one time switch to play in official games for the USA. He's probably just considering his options here. This is only a friendly tournament.

 

[YNWA14]

Kluivert's debut. Came on in the 70th minute and completely changed the complexion of the match for Roma , whilst providing the game winning assist.

Overrated. Overhyped.

I've been touting him for years. Incredible talent.

 

[Ajacied]

Kluivert's debut. Came on in the 70th minute and completely changed the complexion of the match for Roma , whilst providing the game winning assist.

Overrated. Overhyped.

Nice first 20 minutes, but let him proof it for a full season before you jump to conclusions. Hope he does well and proves me wrong.

 

[Il Mediano]

haha you sure it's me who's jumping to conclusions?

 

[YNWA14]

Thought this was a pretty neat video. Two of the more promising players of the next generation of 'phenoms' that we know of. I really like how Simons plays...smart, technical, always has his head up but combines it with a high workrate. Dembele looks really, really impressive as well; good touch, smart plays, extremely explosive and good dribbler.

 

[Evilo]

Meh, they can't touch Hannibal Mejbri or Kays Ruiz' swag.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Thought this was a pretty neat video. Two of the more promising players of the next generation of 'phenoms' that we know of. I really like how Simons plays...smart, technical, always has his head up but combines it with a high workrate. Dembele looks really, really impressive as well; good touch, smart plays, extremely explosive and good dribbler.

can't wait till they follow in the footsteps of legends like Odegaard, halilovich and Woo.

 

[YNWA14]

can't wait till they follow in the footsteps of legends like Odegaard, halilovich and Woo.

Definitely possible. There's so much that goes into a prospect's development that can't be measured. Talent, skill and intelligence are not necessarily indicative of becoming a star. The environment and mentality are so, so important (not to mention development not being linear, and other outside factors).

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Definitely possible. There's so much that goes into a prospect's development that can't be measured. Talent, skill and intelligence are not necessarily indicative of becoming a star. The environment and mentality are so, so important (not to mention development not being linear, and other outside factors).

Not just possible but in fact probable. Agreed on the other things you mentioned though.

 

[Ajacied]

haha you sure it's me who's jumping to conclusions?

Seriously? I've followed him for years, whereas you have just witnessed his first 20 minutes.
Slow down, cowboy. Enjoy him. I do, too. I'm just a little more hesitant after having watched him falter more than he succeeded at Ajax.