So what now?

[koyvoo]

Columbus giving another paper tiger and tram built for playoff failure in Tampa a huge challenge right now.

Columbus is also not bullit for the long haul because they lack talent, but we need to take a page out of their book more than they do out of ours.

 

[biotk]

That's not true. He could probably put on a little weight, and he probably will, but he should not be weighing the same as somebody 4 inches taller than him.

No one said that he should weigh the same as someone 3 inches taller than him. This is the same as all the other lies you spread every second you are on here. Sandin is someone who needs to get stronger and bigger. Everyone knows that. Sandin has said himself that he needs to get bigger and stronger to be successful in the defensive zone and be a full-time player. Unless he has some kind of lengthy injury which still allows him to workout it is only going to happen during an off-season - the longer the better. This was the best opportunity he was ever going to have. Dahlin has been able to take full advantage of that and it will benefit both him and Sabres for years to come. Sandin was told to stay in game shape, after a shortened off-season last year (as the Marlies played until the end of May, and the previous summer was the draft summer which is never conducive to that as there are multiple camps etc.)

There's nothing to suggest he wasn't improving in that time, and he has plenty of time until next season to improve further.

We know from interviews that he was told to stay in game shape as they had no idea how long they were going to be out and how quickly they were going to need to return to the ice, and could not treat this as a normal off season. 5 months of potential building wasted so that he could participate in the warm up of one playoff game.

We had a chance at contention. It didn't have to be several injuries, which often happens on a playoff run. Who went in likely relied on who was injured. Every single team would do the same thing the Leafs did in this situation.

The Leafs were not contenders. Only completely deluded people thought so after the season they had. In the exhibition game they put in Marincin as the 7th D - someone who already had playoff experience and was the player who least needed that exhibition game experience. It was beyond obvious to everyone with any common sense that Sandin was not going to play because he is not big enough and strong enough for playoff hockey. He only played 2 of the last 4 regular season games because, again, he is not strong or big enough.

Between Dermott and Sandin the Leafs' have shown that they are still completely brutal at developing young D. If you cared about the team instead of just lying with bad statistics all day long, you would know that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No one said that he should weigh the same as someone 3 inches taller than him.

Then I don't know why you're comparing what he needs to do to what a 6 foot 3 scrawny guy did.

Unless he has some kind of lengthy injury which still allows him to workout it is only going to happen during an off-season

Kinda like much of the last 5 months they had, or like the next 3 months he has.

We know from interviews that he was told to stay in game shape as they had no idea how long they were going to be out and how quickly they were going to need to return to the ice, and could not treat this as a normal off season.

Staying in game shape doesn't mean doing nothing and not improving It means be ready to go back sometime in the summer. We knew a long time ago that nothing was going to be happening for quite a while. You have absolutely zero evidence that Sandin didn't do things to improve in that time.

The Leafs were not contenders.

We had a chance to make a run, where Sandin could have easily been needed. Again, Leafs are not unique in how they handled this.

Between Dermott and Sandin the Leafs' have shown that they are still completely brutal at developing young D.

There's been nothing wrong with the development of either. Your claims are baseless.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Tampa's 4 goals over 210 minutes against Columbus sure is exposing how terrible the Leafs are offensively

 

[IPS]

You can literally google "off season hockey training" and read around for 10-15 minutes and you'll understand fully that Sandin was absolutely not doing what was best for future development. Staying in game shape means he wasn't hitting the weights, eating more, and learning to work with and adjust to having more muscle mass. You don't do any of these things when you're staying in game shape. In fact you lose weight during the span of a hockey season due to the catabolic nature of hockey.

The Leafs unquestionably dropped the ball with this one. They 100% needed to leave Sandin out of all of this and had his focus with with the trainers getting him bigger and stronger.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

You can literally google "off season hockey training" and read around for 10-15 minutes and you'll understand fully that Sandin was absolutely not doing what was best for future development. Staying in game shape means he wasn't hitting the weights, eating more, and learning to work with and adjust to having more muscle mass. You don't do any of these things when you're staying in game shape. In fact you lose weight during the span of a hockey season due to the catabolic nature of hockey.

The Leafs unquestionably dropped the ball with this one. They 100% needed to leave Sandin out of all of this and had his focus with with the trainers getting him bigger and stronger.

Their development of him during the season was even worse. It's a huge glaring flaw in the organization that they can't develop defensemen properly. Even a guy like Rielly is as bad defensively now as he ever was

 

[IPS]

Their development of him during the season was even worse. It's a huge glaring flaw in the organization that they can't develop defensemen properly. Even a guy like Rielly is as bad defensively now as he ever was

I've been waiting for the Leafs to draft their Parayko or Carlo type solution for the right side of the defense but they wouldn't even develop him properly even if they did with the way they've been doing things for the last god knows how long.

 

[Nylander88]

Tampa's 4 goals over 210 minutes against Columbus sure is exposing how terrible the Leafs are offensively

I agree with the sarcasm. Columbus is a well coached team and plays great defensive hockey. That said, we have a "big 4". They have a "big 3" if I'm not mistaken. Stammer, Kuch, Point. And Stammer is out.

 

[biotk]

You can literally google "off season hockey training" and read around for 10-15 minutes and you'll understand fully that Sandin was absolutely not doing what was best for future development. Staying in game shape means he wasn't hitting the weights, eating more, and learning to work with and adjust to having more muscle mass. You don't do any of these things when you're staying in game shape. In fact you lose weight during the span of a hockey season due to the catabolic nature of hockey.

The Leafs unquestionably dropped the ball with this one. They 100% needed to leave Sandin out of all of this and had his focus with with the trainers getting him bigger and stronger.

Yup. He outlined what he was doing in an interview - playing tennis, a little bit of skating, staying in game shape. Not treating this like an off season and that was under the direction of the team.

Their development of him during the season was even worse. It's a huge glaring flaw in the organization that they can't develop defensemen properly. Even a guy like Rielly is as bad defensively now as he ever was

Agreed. And two or three years down the road the fanbase will blame the player for not turning out or meeting the expectations they had for him a couple years earlier.

I've been waiting for the Leafs to draft their Parayko or Carlo type solution for the right side of the defense but they wouldn't even develop him properly even if they did with the way they've been doing things for the last god knows how long.

Exactly. I see a lot of redrafts where fans say if only their team had drafted such and such instead. But it is always the assumption that the player turns out the same no matter what. Teams that do a good job of developing D turn young D into much better D. Teams that do a bad job of developing D interfere with D reaching their potential.

Or a D will get traded and improve a ton and the fans will say, "Dah! if only we had held onto him!" But that D may have only improved because he was traded to a team that developed him properly.

The thing that I find the most infuriating is that Dubas has outlined how to develop talented young prospects - and he is doing the exact opposite with Sandin - word for word - and fallen right back into the ways that he said his team had matured past.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Staying in game shape means he wasn't hitting the weights, eating more, and learning to work with and adjust to having more muscle mass.

"Staying in game shape" is incredibly vague. It means he likely wasn't going all out strength training, but that's not the only way to develop or improve, especially for a player like Sandin. Putting on too much weight is not always a good thing. I agree that putting on some weight would help him, but we're 3-4 months from the next season and there's no reason he can't do that now. Missing out on an extra training camp and time with the team and/or missing out on playoff experience and/or not skating for 9 months can also have negative impacts on his development.

In fact you lose weight during the span of a hockey season due to the catabolic nature of hockey.

He wasn't playing hockey during that time.

 

[Zybalto]

Leafs stats for the entire Qualifying round of the playoffs and ranking overall:

5v5 adjusted:

Expected Goals For/60:
2.13 (10th out of 24 NHL teams)

Actual Goals For/60:
0.65 (24th out of 24 NHL teams)

Expected Goals Against/60:
1.77 (3rd fewest out of 24 NHL teams)

Actual Goals Against/60:
2.15 (12th fewest out of 24 NHL teams)

Expected Goal Differential/60:
54.64 (9th out of 24 NHL teams)

Actual Goal Differential/60:
23.25 (23rd out of 24 NHL teams)

Save%: 92.61 (12th out of 24 NHL teams)


PK:

Expected Goals Against/60:
3.14 (3rd fewest out of 24 NHL teams)

Actual Goals Against/60:
0 (Tied for 1st with 3 others out of 24 NHL teams)

PP:

Expected Goals For/60:
6.65 (8th out of 24 NHL teams)

Actual Goals For/60:
5.53 (14th out of 24 NHL teams)

 

[koyvoo]

Tampa's 4 goals over 210 minutes against Columbus sure is exposing how terrible the Leafs are offensively

They are another paper tiger who don’t have the mentality of a team conducive to playoff success.

Both us and Tampa have players that are faster than Columbus. Both us and Tampa lose race after race to loose pucks along the boards and behind the redline despite having quicker individual players.

What more, or how much more of the same do people need to see?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Yup. He outlined what he was doing in an interview - playing tennis, a little bit of skating, staying in game shape. Not treating this like an off season and that was under the direction of the team.



Agreed. And two or three years down the road the fanbase will blame the player for not turning out or meeting the expectations they had for him a couple years earlier.



Exactly. I see a lot of redrafts where fans say if only their team had drafted such and such instead. But it is always the assumption that the player turns out the same no matter what. Teams that do a good job of developing D turn young D into much better D. Teams that do a bad job of developing D interfere with D reaching their potential.

Or a D will get traded and improve a ton and the fans will say, "Dah! if only we had held onto him!" But that D may have only improved because he was traded to a team that developed him properly.

The thing that I find the most infuriating is that Dubas has outlined how to develop talented young prospects - and he is doing the exact opposite with Sandin - word for word - and fallen right back into the ways that he said his team had matured past.

Obviously it's not too late for Sandin and overall there have been positive signs of development since he's been drafted, but the organization definitely has to change their approach towards development pretty soon. Obviously every team likes their prospects to pan out, but I think the Leafs are set up in a way that they're especially desperate to have their defensive prospects hit and reach their potential. It could really cripple the organization if they don't figure it out

 

[IPS]

They are another paper tiger who don’t have the mentality of a team conducive to playoff success.

Both us and Tampa have players that are faster than Columbus. Both us and Tampa lose race after race to loose pucks along the boards and behind the redline despite having quicker individual players.

What more, or how much more of the same do people need to see?

Not really, Tampa has outplayed Columbus by a lot through 2 games and Korpisalo is giving them big fits.

This is largely the same Tampa core that also made the cup finals 5 years back. They also made the ECF 2 years ago. They are absolutely not a paper tiger, they're a very good team.

 

[koyvoo]

Ya and last year it was Bobrovsky.

More shots on goal and even territorial advantages don’t always mean outplaying. Especially in post season hockey. Columbus has a slowe skating team. They are retrieving loose pucks more frequently than teams that have faster skaters. Despite the same things happening over and over again in every post season in history, people refuse to acknowledge that winning teams in the playoffs have an element that can’t be measured by any physical means.

If this core ever wins, it will be after going through a mental transformation in the same way Ovechkin’s capitals had to go through.

 

[IPS]

Ya and last year it was Bobrovsky.

More shots on goal and even territorial advantages don’t always mean outplaying. Especially in post season hockey. Columbus has a slowe skating team. They are retrieving loose pucks more frequently than teams that have faster skaters. Despite the same things happening over and over again in every post season in history, people refuse to acknowledge that winning teams in the playoffs have an element that can’t be measured by any physical means.

If this core ever wins, it will be after going through a mental transformation in the same way Ovechkin’s capitals had to go through.

I assumed you were responding to me?

Have you watched the Tampa Columbus series thus far? Tampa has outplayed them by a lot. Today they outshot them, out chanced them, out hit them, everything. Korpisalo was the difference. Game 1 would have been the biggest larceny job of all time if Vasilevsky didn't put on a very impressive performance of his own. It took what, 85 shots to get 3 by Korpisalo?

 

[Durrr]

IF dubass can't fill the rhs 2nd pair slot with 5m cap space,,that's ALL on the highly paid GM

that's his utter fail

Him and like 22 other GMs in the league? Every year half the league overpays for that position because 0 rh D are available.

 

[Durrr]

One player needed to gain strength and mass to progress in their career by moving on to the top pairing and is doing so. Good for the player and the team.

Another player needed to gain strength and mass to progress in their career to being a full-time NHL player and did not do so. Bad for the player and the team - a team that has fallen from a .640 to a .610 to a sub .580 winning percentage over the past 3 years and didn't make the playoffs.

Man you have 0 insight into how this process works or you wouldn't be saying such ridiculous things.

You bulk in the off season, like Dahlin is in, not going into a "season" like Sandin was. If Sandin started bulking in the break he'd have basically disqualified himself from the post season after having 0 foot speed. Some of my friends who went through this process for college sports would literally be eating thousands of calories more then the average person a day to put on size, then it was a 2+ month process to cut the excess weight and get your speed back while maintaining the muscle.

 

[Faltorvo]

Him and like 22 other GMs in the league? Every year half the league overpays for that position because 0 rh D are available.

if my GM can't fill the 2nd pair rhs D ADEQUATELY with 5m cap space,,then he should not be our GM, full and utter stop

 

[lottster14]

Not really. It was just a chance to add a great player without expending assets. It doesn't change the developmental stage of everybody else. It gave us a chance at cup contention during those earlier years, but it didn't mean that we were owed a Stanley Cup immediately. He's one player.

No they aren't. They are paid like the amazing young players they showed they were prior to signing those contracts.

Win =/= win immediately.

I want the team to win a playoff round as well, but while it's comforting and exciting as fans, it doesn't actually mean as much as people think in terms of future success.

A team that lost in the 1st round 3 years in a row, then missed the playoffs entirely is not a team trending in the right direction, period. From last in the league to game 6 against Presidents Trophy winning Capitals, we were expected to build on it going forward. Get past the first round in 2018 etc, we didn't.. and failed.

"We could win a round, it'd be nice, but it doesn't actually mean much" Is merely a cop out. A cope.

 

[Dekes For Days]

A team that lost in the 1st round 3 years in a row, then missed the playoffs entirely is not a team trending in the right direction, period.

We didn't miss the playoffs, and judging a young team's progress solely by whether or not they win playoff rounds, with zero context, is not an effective method of evaluation. People don't seem to realize how many cup winners would have been dismantled before winning if they did what many are suggesting we do.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We didn't miss the playoffs, and judging a young team's progress solely by whether or not they win playoff rounds, with zero context, is not an effective method of evaluation. People don't seem to realize how many cup winners would have been dismantled before winning if they did what many are suggesting we do.

Opinions vary. I know you can't stand it when anyone doesn't accept your opinions as fact but that's your problem.

Semantics aside, there are 16 teams still alive in the hunt for the cup and for the first time in 4 years, we aren't one of them. We made the final 16 3 years in a row and this year, we took a step backwards. Downplay playoff success all you want, to me it's just excuses.

I believe that playoff success (or lack thereof) is THE single most important measure of a team that there is. You can make all the excuses you like and shout to the world "we made the playoffs, we're a playoff team baby" and enjoy your participation ribbon but for me, this season is an abject failure.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Opinions vary.

The NHL has the only opinion that matters and their official position is that it's the playoffs.

I believe that playoff success (or lack thereof) is THE single most important measure of a team that there is.

You can think it all you want, but it's not true, especially when comparing teams by "rounds won" against vastly different opponents and circumstances. There's a lot of luck that factors into the playoffs and their small samples.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The NHL has the only opinion that matters and their official position is that it's the playoffs.

You can think it all you want, but it's not true, especially when comparing teams by "rounds won" against vastly different opponents and circumstances. There's a lot of luck that factors into the playoffs and their small samples.

We're the only team not to win a single playoff round in the cap era. Keep telling yourself it's just bad luck if it makes you feel better. The Toronto Maple Leafs, the unluckiest team in NHL history.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We're the only team not to win a single playoff round in the cap era.

We haven't had a lot of chances to do so, because we sucked for a long time. That has nothing to do with our team now or moving forward, and it says nothing about win/loss results from 5 or 7 game samples against singular teams being effective for team evaluation.