So what now?

[Dekes For Days]

The problem is you tend to use “sample size” rather arbitrarily to suit your own preferences.

That's not true at all. I consistently use 2 or 3 year samples, and in every relevant sample, Marner has been better than Aho, so your comment makes no sense.

It’s fine to have preferences as a fan but come off the scientific methodology angle like you’re rigorously conducting research.

Yeah, why be accurate and informed when we can just go around talking about things we feel, right?

Aho and Marner have played the same number of playoff games, have a similar number of career playoff points and Aho and the Hurricanes are 3-1 in playoff and play-in rounds and the Leafs are 0-4 in the same sample size and time frame.

A sample size that is still not very big, and a sample that has them face wildly different defenses and opponent quality. Also, the only thing you even said in Aho's favour is a team stat, which really means nothing when talking about Aho as a player.

 

[IPS]

Except they don't. Playoffs just provide vastly different opportunities. In the past 3 years, the Leafs have faced the 1st, 3rd, and 1st best defensive teams in the league in the playoffs, and some great goaltenders, while getting the least PP time of any team in the playoffs.

Aho in contrast, just put up a bunch of points against the single worst defensive team in the league, by far, and a 38 year old goalie who just had a horrible season, while getting over 4 minutes of PP TOI/GP, and suddenly he's a god.

But Aho had 7 points in 8 games against the Islanders and Bruins last year, the 1st and 4th best defensive teams in the league.

No he's not just "putting up a bunch of points" against bad defensive teams. He's also playing the #1C role and bringing a fantastic 2-way game doing all of this. Marner happens to be making a hell of a lot more money than this guy too, he needs to be doing better - not worse than him.

What is your obsession with constantly downplaying Marner's peers?

 

[Dekes For Days]

But Aho had 7 points in 8 games against the Islanders and Bruins last year, the 1st and 4th best defensive teams in the league.

They were the 3rd and 9th best defensive teams, and now we're excluding portions of the playoffs to shrink the sample size even more. And what's so special about 7 points in 8 games, 3 of which were secondary assists? Especially to counter a considerable gap in much more significant and equal sample sizes?

bringing a fantastic 2-way game

His defensive play and impact is highly overrated.

What is your obsession with constantly downplaying Marner's peers?

On the contrary, some constantly downplay Marner.

 

[Cleetus]

They were the 3rd and 9th best defensive teams, and now we're excluding portions of the playoffs to shrink the sample size even more. And what's so special about 7 points in 8 games, 3 of which were secondary assists? Especially to counter a considerable gap in much more significant and equal sample sizes?

His defensive play and impact is highly overrated.

On the contrary, some constantly downplay Marner.

please provide proof, you said it yourself not post how we feel, provide facts... wow talk about kettle meeting black???

 

[rumman]

Tampa's 4 goals over 210 minutes against Columbus sure is exposing how terrible the Leafs are offensively

no, it's exposing that defense wins playoff games..............

 

[Gallagbi]

no, it's exposing that defense wins playoff games..............

...but the Leafs gave up less quality chances than CLB?

 

[Dekes For Days]

please provide proof, you said it yourself not post how we feel, provide facts...

Accurately measuring individual defensive impact from forwards isn't the most simple, since they don't actually have nearly as much impact as people seem to think, and their results are closely tied to the defensemen they play with, but Marner has a better 5v5 xGA/60 over the past 3 years (Marner = 2.36, Aho = 2.37) while he's been on the ice, and if we compare it to the xGA/60 of the defensemen they most play with, weighted to the amount of time they play together, to try to get closer to their individual impact, Aho just looks worse.

Now this method certainly isn't perfect, but even setting aside the overrated impact people think forwards have, I would ask, what evidence do you have that Aho is even better defensively?

 

[Dekes For Days]

no, it's exposing that defense wins playoff games..............

Goaltending**

 

[Cleetus]

Accurately measuring individual defensive impact from forwards isn't the most simple, since they don't actually have nearly as much impact as people seem to think, and their results are closely tied to the defensemen they play with, but Marner has a better 5v5 xGA/60 over the past 3 years (Marner = 2.36, Aho = 2.37) while he's been on the ice, and if we compare it to the xGA/60 of the defensemen they most play with, weighted to the amount of time they play together, to try to get closer to their individual impact, Aho just looks worse.

Now this method certainly isn't perfect, but even setting aside the overrated impact people think forwards have, I would ask, what evidence do you have that Aho is even better defensively?

where did I say he was better defensively? I think Aho is a better player, getting paid less, and is also a Centre to me Aho is better than Marner, and again he is playing in the playoffs at a point per game pace against Boston, what is Marner doing?, collecting an over priced contract, that a horrible GM gave him.... take off your homer glasses Marner vs Aho seems im not the only one that thinks this either??

 

[x15Kotkaniemi15x]

I think a lot of what I had to say here will do wonders for this Leafs team:

 

[Dekes For Days]

he is playing in the playoffs at a point per game pace against Boston, what is Marner doing?

He has 2 secondary assists in 2 games so far... Marner has played above point per game pace against Boston before.

 

[Cleetus]

He has 2 secondary assists in 2 games so far... Marner has played above point per game pace against Boston before.

so secondary assists dont count or am I missing something, fact of the matter is he is a point per game looking good, playing center driving a line...., marner also playing wing has way less defensive responsibility than a center...

 

[Dekes For Days]

fact of the matter is he is a point per game looking good, playing center driving a line....

Yes, he does look good. I've never said otherwise. That just doesn't make him better than Marner.

 

[Cleetus]

Yes, he does look good. I've never said otherwise. That just doesn't make him better than Marner.

so all the posters on the main boards are also clueless when they voted on that poll? Im in the Majority ill take that all day, just curious going based off contract alone you would take marner over Aho?

 

[Superstar]

so secondary assists dont count or am I missing something, fact of the matter is he is a point per game looking good, playing center driving a line...., marner also playing wing has way less defensive responsibility than a center...

Aho's got 3 goals, 10 pts through 5 games so far...it's laughable how ineffective Marner is compared to Aho this post-season.

 

[Dekes For Days]

so all the posters on the main boards are also clueless when they voted on that poll?

Many fans don't understand how to properly evaluate players, especially across teams. Poll results from a poll a year and a half ago on a fan site mean nothing.

 

[HolyCrap]

I think we need to make some major moves. Moves not just in the obviously needed backend but moves that make the team compete and have some heart. I think Marner or Willy will be moved. Players that compete will always out play a lazy heartless skilled player. There is something wrong in the locker room. We are not privy to knowing who or why but Dubas and Shannys job will be gone if they don’t fix it. Montreal and Phoenix are better teams than we are when it counts. That’s pathetic.

 

[Cleetus]

Many fans don't understand how to properly evaluate players, especially across teams. Poll results from a poll a year and a half ago on a fan site mean nothing.

please..... and you do? lol thats laughable.... posters have been proving your lies all through this thread, and you are credible not a chance. I will believe a poll that does not have homer glasses on all day before I believe you sorry.

 

[Dekes For Days]

please..... and you do?

At least I'm utilizing the abundance of information available to me to improve my position, unlike most.

Also, hilariously, Marner was voted higher than Aho in the top 30 players poll series in the poll forum, that was just completed, so your claim that the majority agree with you on this forum doesn't even hold true.

 

[egd27]

And that sample size would probably be determined by you, right?

Well that and the definition of "play better"

 

[Cleetus]

At least I'm utilizing the abundance of information available to me to improve my position, unlike most.

Also, hilariously, Marner was voted higher than Aho in the top 30 players poll series in the poll forum, that was just completed, so your claim that the majority agree with you on this forum doesn't even hold true.

can you link it to me please? just posted a new poll see what happens...

 

[Dekes For Days]

can you link it to me please?

Top 30 NHL Players #30

just posted a new poll see what happens...

Convenient timing.

 

[sparxx87]

Many fans don't understand how to properly evaluate players, especially across teams. Poll results from a poll a year and a half ago on a fan site mean nothing.

How is it that you know better than everyone else?

You sound completely clueless with stuff like “forwards don’t have the impact on defense people think they do” ... uhhhh... yeah, good defensive teams have good defensive forwards who’re committed to it. And I’m not sure if you’ve ever counted, but there’s two defenders and three forwards. Any guess who picks up the 3rd forward in the defensive zone?

Everyone on this site says some dumb shit or has bad takes from time to time, but it’s impressive that you’ve turned into a punchline with your generational bullshit and ignorance.

 

[AllDay28]

We’ve been saying this the last 4 years. Lol.

so did u expect to beat wash or Boston? Obviously not right?

 

[Cleetus]

Top 30 NHL Players #30

Convenient timing.

why? you said my data was old, so I posted a poll to see now? something wrong?