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Tell that to Swedish people.
The ones who live in Sweden, you mean? Who live in a time zone that prohibits them from watching relevant games on a regular basis?
Tell that to Swedish people.
Yes, the people who are less likely to have actually watched both players play a large number of games.
The ones who live in Sweden, you mean? Who live in a time zone that prohibits them from watching relevant games on a regular basis?
I was just making a point that in Sweden Forsberg is seen as the greatest Swedish player not Lidstrom. Are you trying to tell me you or anyone else can tell from watching games that Lidstrom is better than Forsberg? Well that would be a ridiculous claim because it's entirely arguable who's better, and the reason the general consensus is Lidstrom is simply because he's had the healthier and more valuable career. On a per game basis Forsberg was simply a better player IMO.
I was just making a point that in Sweden Forsberg is seen as the greatest Swedish player not Lidstrom. Are you trying to tell me you or anyone else can tell from watching games that Lidstrom is better than Forsberg? Well that would be a ridiculous claim because it's entirely arguable who's better, and the reason the general consensus is Lidstrom is simply because he's had the healthier and more valuable career. On a per game basis Forsberg was simply a better player IMO.
Forsberg's career basically lasted from 1995-2004, which makes it hard for him when people looks simply on points gained during each decade.
During that time, Forsberg had pretty impressive stats...
Regular season:
* Total +/- : 1st (better than every other player in the league)
* +/- per game: 1st (at least from what I could see)
* Pts per game: 3rd (behind Mario and Jagr)
* Assists per game: 1st (if I remember correctly)
Playoffs:
* Total +/-: 1st (with +47, ahead of C.Lemieux with +35)
* +/- per game: 1st
* Total points: 2nd (behind Sakic)
* Pts per game: 3rd (not far behind Jagr and Mario)
* Total goals: 2nd (behind Sakic)
* Goals per game: 5th(!)
* Total assists: 1st
* Assists per game: 2nd (Mario .732, Forsberg .729)
Playoff stats could be also written as (I wish I could make tables):
Category....Total...Per game
+/-..........1st.....1st
Points.......2nd.....3rd
Goals........2nd.... 5th
Assists......1st.....2nd
Seriously this. As if he was the only star player that dove. Gretzky was notorious for diving, Crosby, even Lemieux.
He'll be first ballot, or atleast should be.
Awards, Honors & Stats
- 2x Stanley Cup
- 2x Olympic Gold Medals
- 2x World Championship Gold Medals
(Enough titles to join the "Triple Gold Club" twice, a feat that only 2 other players in history has accomplished)
- Art Ross Trophy
- Hart Trophy
- Calder Trophy
- Bud Light Plus-Minus Award
- 1995 NHL All-Rookie Team (1st)
- 1998 NHL All-Star Team (1st)
- 1999 NHL All-Star Team (1st)
- 2003 NHL All-Star Team (1st)
- 2x Scoring Titles in the playoffs despite missing the finals. (only player in history to do so)
- 4th All-Time in assists/game. (behind only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr - 3rd all-time in adjusted assists/game)
- 8th All-Time in points/game. (Minimum 500GP)
- 4th All-Time in adjusted points/game
- 3rd All-Time in adjusted points/game in the playoffs, (behind only Gretzky & Lemieux)
- All-Time scoring record in a single World Junior Championship tournament (31 points in only 7 games.)
- Ranked as the best player in the world by "The Hockey News" in 2002-2003 and 2003-2004.
- 6th all-time in +/- in the playoffs, behind only players like Gretzky, Kurri, Gregg, Anderson and Huddy (all of them linemates in the 80's Oilers dynasty years)
Other
- TV-Pucken Champion | (1988-1989)
- J18 SM Gold Medal | (1990-1991)
- J20 SM Gold Medal | (1991-1992)
- U20 WJC Silver Medal | (1991-1992)
- World Championship Gold Medal | (1991-1992)
- Swedish Elite Legue (Elitserien) "Guldpucken" | (1992-1993)
- Swedish Elite Legue (Elitserien) Most Valuable Player - "Guldhjälmen" | (1992-1993)
- J20 SM Gold Medal | (1992-1993)
- Swedish Junior Hockey Player of the Year | (1992-1993)
- U20 WJC All-Star Team | (1992-1993)
- U20 WJC Best Forward | (1992-1993)
- U20 WJC Most Assists (24) | (1992-1993)
- U20 WJC Most Points (31) | (1992-1993)
- U20 WJC Silver Medal | (1992-1993)
- World Championship Silver Medal | (1992-1993)
- Swedish Elite Legue (Elitserien) Best Player "Guldpucken | (1993-1994)
- Swedish Elite Legue (Elitserien) Most Goals Playoffs (9) | (1993-1994)
- Swedish Elite Legue (Elitserien) Most Valuable Player "Guldhjälmen" | (1993-1994)
- Swedish Elite Legue (Elitserien) SM-silver Medal | (1993-1994)
- NHL Best Swedish Player "Viking Award" | (1995-1996)
- NHL Most Assists Playoffs (12) | 1996-1997
- NHL Best Swedish Player "Viking Award" | 1997-1998
- World Championship All-Star Team | 1997-1998
- World Championship Best Forward | 1997-1998
- World Championship Gold Medal | 1997-1998
- World Championship Most Goals (6) | 1997-1998
- World Championship Most Points (11) | 1997-1998
- NHL Best Swedish Player "Viking Award" | 1998-1999
- NHL First All-Star Team | 1998-1999
- NHL Most Assists Playoffs (16) | 1998-1999
- NHL Most Points Playoffs (24) | 1998-1999
- NHL Most Assists Playoffs (18) | 2001-2002
- NHL Most Goals Playoffs (9) | 2001-2002
- NHL Most Points Playoffs (27) | 2001-2002
- World Championship All-Star Team | 2002-2003
- World Championship Silver Medal | 2002-2003
- World Championship Silver Medal | 2003-2004
"Peter Forsberg is one of the best hockey players that ever played the game, and I actually don't think that anyone has been so good as Peter was during his peak, I've played against him alot, so I should know." -- Vjatjeslav Fetisov (2009)
"Some of the stuff he does is just ridiculous. Jaromir Jagr is big and strong like Forsberg, but Jagr doesn't fight back if you play him tough like Forsberg does. "I think he's the toughest player in the game to play against." -- Derian Hatcher (1999)
"For me, an agitator is somebody who controls the emotion of the game," And Peter definitely controls the emotion of the game for them. "The only thing that stopped Forsberg is that he ran out of gas when they double- and tripleshifted him, and he wasn't able to use his speed, plus his strength," Hitchcock says. "I remember one time he kept the puck in our end for 40, maybe 50 seconds, and we couldn't get the thing away from him. His ability to knock Derian Hatcher on his butt while giving up 40 pounds shows how he can completely control and dominate a game. He's a player with skill and talent who occasionally goes maniacal. Boy, he gets a really strange look in his eyes. It's like the same steely glare that Mark Messier always gets, and you don't want to be anywhere near him." -- Ken Hitchcock (2000)
At the HHOF induction, was asked the question on which player he thinks it's the best he ever played against. -- I would probably say that Forsberg is the best player I ever played against" -- Scott Stevens (2007)
"Obviously one of the best players in the league the last 15 years, a guy who really controlled the play when he was on the ice, and there's only a handful of guy's in the league at any given era that really, actually controlled the play when the're where on the ice, just his combination of skill, strenght, determinition, and a bit of meanness or alot of meanness actually made him one of the best players to play." -- Steve Yzerman 2006
"Peter is the best all-around player in the NHL, bar none. He's a competitor. He's the ultimate warrior. His hands are electric. He's one of the smartest players on the ice, and he knows where everybody is. He always makes the right play, and he even makes the plays you don't think he can make. He's so fast on his feet and so powerful. And he's mean. The guy is so talented, he's disgusting to watch." -- Jeremy Roenick (2000)
"He's a coach's dream. The more crucial the time in a game or a series, the tougher he gets. I think sometimes he's able to flip on a switch in his mind and be at a different level than everyone else. " -- Ray Bourque (1999)
Larry Wigge -- "It was late in the Eastern Conference finals, and I was talking about nastiness and skill with Devils right winger Claude Lemieux. He clearly was enjoying the conversation. As I'm talking to the guy some call the most hated player in the NHL, I ask him, "If you could be anyone else in hockey, who would it be?" That's easy. Peter Forsberg," Lemieux says. "I could still be mean and nasty, but if I had all of the skills that he has, I might have won five or six Stanley Cups by now. "I can only dream of skating like Peter. Either that or buy some rocket-powered skates." "(After seeing) a Michael Jordan or a Wayne Gretzky, you think you've seen it all," Lemieux says, "and then Peter shows you something entirely new. "It's the way he creates space, uses space. It's the way he sees the ice. It's the way he picks up speed even after he picks up the puck. And it's the meanness, the nastiness." -- Claude Lemieux (2000)
"He was the most talented guy I ever played with, for just pure raw talent. But more than that, he was a winner and a total gamer, he just wanted to win. He didn't care who scored all the goals or who got all the credit. He just wanted to win, and that's why his teams won as much as they did. I was very fortunate to play with one of the best players to ever play the game." - Joe Sakic (2011)
"Peter Forsberg's skills and determination made him one of the most powerful forwards in the NHL during the best years of his career. Hearing of his retirement is sad news but one day every athlete has to come to this decision. He should be very proud of all he accomplished throughout his career." -- Patrick Roy (2011)
Forsberg of course had a great NHL career but people tend to underrated his international experience and how much of an influence he is on Sweden Hockey. Probably the greatest swede (between him and lidstrom atleast).
Incidentally, on the Lidstrom vs. Forsberg debate...
I think Lidstrom was the better player, had the better career, did more in the NHL, etc. I think you could make a case for him as the greatest European-born, European-trained NHL player ever. He's not flaky like Jagr, and he's more reliable than Hasek. He never quit on his team, never asked for a trade. Brings it every night. If those three - Lidstrom, Jagr, Hasek - wind up on the HHOF ballot together, I think most in the room would pick Lidstrom first, although all three would certainly get in.
In terms of what he means to Swedish hockey, for whatever reason, Forsberg seems to get the nod, and it boils down to one thing: The Goal. That goal in the 1994 Olympics, during the shootout against Canada, is one of the most celebrated moments in Swedish sport history. It's on a friggin' postage stamp. It should have never happened - Canada twice failed to finish off the Swedes when they had golden opportunities (once in regulation, once in the shootout, and besides, the shootout should never be used in that setting, or any setting, for what it's worth).
But when you consider that goal, and that gold medal, and all that it means to Swedish hockey and Swedish sport, and then all that Forsberg did in the NHL, yeah, I can see why Swedes would view Forsberg as the greatest Swedish player ever, even though Lidstrom was the better player.
Talking about international games, I always felt that Mats Sundin outplayed Forsberg when they were both in Team Sweden.
But Forsberg has that legendary olympic gold winning shootout goal, so Swedes probably rank him better in that category too.
Unless he's up against 4 of Lidstrom, Hasek, Brodeur, Jagr, and Chelios at the same time, he's first ballot.
Forsberg should be well deserving Hall of Famer, most likely first ballot. Could be interesting case if for example Lidström, Modano and Hasek are eligible in the same year (I doubt Jagr or Brodeur retire after this season).
Nevertheless, I really despise the common theme that Forsberg's points per game or goals per game stats are constantly brought up. Forsberg's actual totals make him great while reference to PPG and GPG stats tries to portray him as more than that. The fact is that he did no good for his team while he was injured and since he was already quite established player as he entered into league, his career consists mostly of his prime. Without looking at the actual numbers, I would guess that quite many players would have approximately equal PPG numbers if we choose only similar part of their career (basically 10 best years), while also having at least good seasons in top of those, while Forsberg lacks those additional years.
As noted, Forsberg was great. Between 94/95 and 06/07 (his entire career basically), he was 5th in points and 3rd in assists. Great, but not "beyond competition" numbers as I feel that references to his "per game" stats tries to indicate.
And his injuries problems would have come even sooner, too...Forsberg came into the league at age 21, sure it was prime for him.
Maybe if he came in at 18 he would have exploded even sooner who knows.
Talking about international games, I always felt that Mats Sundin outplayed Forsberg when they were both in Team Sweden.
But Forsberg has that legendary olympic gold winning shootout goal, so Swedes probably rank him better in that category too.
Yeah, Sundin outplayed everyone when he was in a Swedish uniform. Forsberg, Naslund, Lidstrom, Alfie............everyone.