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The ones who live in Sweden, you mean? Who live in a time zone that prohibits them from watching relevant games on a regular basis?
So now that Forsberg has officially quit
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The ones who live in Sweden, you mean? Who live in a time zone that prohibits them from watching relevant games on a regular basis?
Forsberg (Foppa or Floppa depending on your POV) will get into the HHOF some day. He was a great player even though he set back Nashville a few seasons of development. They gave up too much for an old man with one leg who scored only 2 goals for them. The diving is enough reason for me to pass over him on the first ballot.
I was just making a point that in Sweden Forsberg is seen as the greatest Swedish player not Lidstrom. Are you trying to tell me you or anyone else can tell from watching games that Lidstrom is better than Forsberg? Well that would be a ridiculous claim because it's entirely arguable who's better, and the reason the general consensus is Lidstrom is simply because he's had the healthier and more valuable career. On a per game basis Forsberg was simply a better player IMO.
Darrelle Lundqvist
Swagelin
Forsberg was injured too much in his career, same goes with Lindros. It's sad to see two unbelievable talents not used at their best potential for many years. However I think they will both get in, I'm not so sure about first ballot though.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
If Forsberg did what he did for 2.5X as many games (with a career curve on that, of course), I am pretty sure I'd still have him behind Lidstrom. But I could see others having him ahead. As it is now - he has no case.
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
Forsberg has always been the golden boy in Sweden, kid could do no wrong. It's just one of those things.
JackSlater
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2010
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I would put them very close on a per game basis... it could go either way. Lidstrom's longevity ultimately does count for something though, which puts him comfortably ahead of Forsberg.
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
Lidstrom had locked down the title of best Swedish player before the post-lockout era even began. 3 Norris Trophies, 6 First-Team All-Stars, 3 Stanley Cups, and a Conn Smythe Trophy. And that was prior to the lockout. Forsberg is a distant second, but that speaks more about how dominant Lidstrom has been than anything else. Forsberg was a dominant player as well, but he did become slightly over-rated by fans who put a little too much weight behind his point/game averages in player comparisons. However, he was still a sure-fire HHOF player and while we are in an era where Pavel Datsyuk is glorified well beyond his ability, Forsberg was one of the greatest of all-time and I'll take the Forsberg/Jagr comparisons, as ill-conceived as they were, over the downright ludicrous Crosby/Datsyuk comparison.
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Ha! Leave it to Blades of Glory to take a shot at Datsyuk in a thread that has nothing to do with him.
Regarding Forsberg, I yesterday wrote a post in:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=810538&page=4
I quote parts of it, as it seems valid here (hope it's OK).
I think it's fair to say he during his 10 years was, if not the best, one of the top-4 forwards (along with Jagr and Sakic, but probably behind a fairly healthy Mario).
Definitely a candidate for best alltime player born in the 70s.
4th alltime in assists per game.
10th alltime in points per game.
Winner of Calder, Art Ross and Hart. Nominated for Selke.
3 times elected as leagues best center (=1st all star team).
2 times leading playoff scorer.
3 times leading playoff scorer if counting pts per game.
2 times in a row most regular season pts per game. (Also had 14 points in 9 games = 1.56 pts/game a couple of seasons later.)
2 Stanley Cups.
He also showed he wasn't limited to a certain environment (like some other players, Markus Naslund sort of comes to mind). He actually had great stats in Philly too (1.15 pts/game). Regarding Nashville, he obviously was injured (foot, etc). Last time (not counting the two games this season) in the NHL, he had 14 points in 9 games (1.56 pts/game).
Internationally:
* 2 olympic gold medals (on first one he scored the gold medal winning goal in the shootout, in the second he assisted on the gold medal winning goal).
* 2 world championship gold medals.
* Several more good tournaments (World Cup, World Championships), including being selected to all star teams.
* Still holds the record for most points in a single World Junior World Cup, with 31 pts in 7 games (21 points in 6 games if one wants to exclude his 10 pts game vs Japan). Noone has been near (although of course guys like Crosby might have been, had they not played in the NHL instead).
Domestic (MoDo):
* Last season, playing with bad foot, had most pts per game in the league. He did that while playing for free.
* Before going to NHL, was elected as best player in the league
Recognition in Sweden:
* Widely considered the best Swedish hockey player ever (Lidstrom aren't really near, probably at least partly for not being as visible in their national team or their national league).
Charity/Other:
* For example, co-founded Ice Breakers, playing exhibition games and giving money to disabled children.
* Known to be loyal to his teams
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=810538&page=4
I quote parts of it, as it seems valid here (hope it's OK).
I think it's fair to say he during his 10 years was, if not the best, one of the top-4 forwards (along with Jagr and Sakic, but probably behind a fairly healthy Mario).
Definitely a candidate for best alltime player born in the 70s.
4th alltime in assists per game.
10th alltime in points per game.
Winner of Calder, Art Ross and Hart. Nominated for Selke.
3 times elected as leagues best center (=1st all star team).
2 times leading playoff scorer.
3 times leading playoff scorer if counting pts per game.
2 times in a row most regular season pts per game. (Also had 14 points in 9 games = 1.56 pts/game a couple of seasons later.)
2 Stanley Cups.
He also showed he wasn't limited to a certain environment (like some other players, Markus Naslund sort of comes to mind). He actually had great stats in Philly too (1.15 pts/game). Regarding Nashville, he obviously was injured (foot, etc). Last time (not counting the two games this season) in the NHL, he had 14 points in 9 games (1.56 pts/game).
Internationally:
* 2 olympic gold medals (on first one he scored the gold medal winning goal in the shootout, in the second he assisted on the gold medal winning goal).
* 2 world championship gold medals.
* Several more good tournaments (World Cup, World Championships), including being selected to all star teams.
* Still holds the record for most points in a single World Junior World Cup, with 31 pts in 7 games (21 points in 6 games if one wants to exclude his 10 pts game vs Japan). Noone has been near (although of course guys like Crosby might have been, had they not played in the NHL instead).
Domestic (MoDo):
* Last season, playing with bad foot, had most pts per game in the league. He did that while playing for free.
* Before going to NHL, was elected as best player in the league
Recognition in Sweden:
* Widely considered the best Swedish hockey player ever (Lidstrom aren't really near, probably at least partly for not being as visible in their national team or their national league).
Charity/Other:
* For example, co-founded Ice Breakers, playing exhibition games and giving money to disabled children.
* Known to be loyal to his teams
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tony d
Registered User
Forsberg was 1 heck of a player, that's for sure. Yeah he's a 1st ballot hall of famer. It's scary to think how good he could have been had it not been for injuries.
Lexus
OWN THE MOMENT.
- Jan 29, 2009
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I can honestly say that Lemieux (best player i've ever seen) dove alot, for being a star-player that is.. and more often than Forsberg did. But they had such an win-menatality that they would do anything to win games. Also, it's easy for other fanbases to pick on these guy's because they were the best players, they didn't dive more than anyone else, but just because they were among the best in the game they got easy picked on.
Crosby for example, he has had his fair share of dives, probably more times than both above already, especially in his early years.
And everyone here can agree on that he's been taking more **** than anyone since the lockout about his antics (diving, whining etc.), same here.. he didn't do it more than anyone else, but when he did, there was thousands and thousands of posts/media columns in a couple of minutes on the net raging about it.
No-one is interested in reading about a Scott Nichol dive, but almost everyone is interested on reading about a Crosby dive.
They are/were also among the most abused players in the game, especially Forsberg (during the dead-puck era, each shift he had like 2-3 guys water-skiing after him)
Sorry for my bad english.
Anyway.. On to Forsberg
Let's forget about stats for a minute, you can't measure how good a player was on statistics alone. Where's the stats for how good they were defensively? how they played without the puck? how they controlled the flow of the game? how much fear they would strike to their opponents by delivering huge body checks, etc.?
For those who saw Forsberg play on a regular basis wouldn't hesitate to induct him into the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.
Some quotes on Forsberg.
Forsberg's a mortal lock for the HHOF. The only way he doesn't go in first ballot is if there's such a strong class of other first-ballot candidates, as someone mentioned earlier.
There are two reasons to keep him out of the HHOF, but neither hold water. One is personal opinion. Don't allow your opinion of Forsberg cloud your judgements of him. Was he a dirty player? Absolutely. He used the blade of his stick for far more than just stick-handling, playmaking and scoring. But if you watch him objectively, you'll see that he's one of the best to enter the game in the last 20 years.
The other is longevity. He played 167 games after he won the Hart Trophy at age 29 in 2003. That's a little more than two seasons. So I can understand the longevity argument.
But to compare him with Bure and Lindros? Bure was great at one thing: scoring goals. And, at times, he did it to the detriment of his team, because he didn't make good use of his linemates, he didn't backcheck, and he didn't contribute consistently when the puck wasn't on his stick. Peter Forsberg was great at a lot of things, maybe everything.
Lindros is a polarizing guy. Lots of people have him as an HHOFer. Lots don't. A lot of reasons to support his candidacy. A lot of reasons to snub him. A lot of people don't like Forsberg, but outside of a lack of game action following his 30th birthday, there really isn't a reason to vote against Forsberg, unless, of course, he's up against a stacked field.
The interesting thing about Forsberg is that when his HHOF candidacy comes up in 2014, we'll be seven years removed from his last season as an NHL regular. In most cases, players are three years removed. I find that the best time to evaluate a player is in that five to 10 years after his career. We aren't over-rating him because he's active. We aren't underrating him because he's active. And we don't need to pull out the stats to evaluate him.
If he's up against Brodeur, Chelios, Hasek and Lidstrom for candidacy, Forsberg won't get in. If he's up against two or three of them, he will. I think he'd get in ahead of Fedorov. No matter your definition of greatness or HHOF candidacy, you should be voting for Forsberg. You want peak value? He has it. You want media-voted awards and accolades? He has them. You want numbers? The only one he lacks is games played.
For me, I evaluate the player. He was a freak, an incredible player who, in turn, did incredible things for an 11-season span. He dominated all aspects of the game at all times of the season.
He missed an entire season in 2001-02, and then stepped into Colorado's line-up and was the best player in the 2002 playoffs. He didn't play in the NHL for 10 1/2 months from May 2001 to April 2002 . Yet the moment he stepped on the ice, the guy who should have been in pre-season form, from a game shape perspective, was better than the guys who were in late season form. Incredible.
There are two reasons to keep him out of the HHOF, but neither hold water. One is personal opinion. Don't allow your opinion of Forsberg cloud your judgements of him. Was he a dirty player? Absolutely. He used the blade of his stick for far more than just stick-handling, playmaking and scoring. But if you watch him objectively, you'll see that he's one of the best to enter the game in the last 20 years.
The other is longevity. He played 167 games after he won the Hart Trophy at age 29 in 2003. That's a little more than two seasons. So I can understand the longevity argument.
But to compare him with Bure and Lindros? Bure was great at one thing: scoring goals. And, at times, he did it to the detriment of his team, because he didn't make good use of his linemates, he didn't backcheck, and he didn't contribute consistently when the puck wasn't on his stick. Peter Forsberg was great at a lot of things, maybe everything.
Lindros is a polarizing guy. Lots of people have him as an HHOFer. Lots don't. A lot of reasons to support his candidacy. A lot of reasons to snub him. A lot of people don't like Forsberg, but outside of a lack of game action following his 30th birthday, there really isn't a reason to vote against Forsberg, unless, of course, he's up against a stacked field.
The interesting thing about Forsberg is that when his HHOF candidacy comes up in 2014, we'll be seven years removed from his last season as an NHL regular. In most cases, players are three years removed. I find that the best time to evaluate a player is in that five to 10 years after his career. We aren't over-rating him because he's active. We aren't underrating him because he's active. And we don't need to pull out the stats to evaluate him.
If he's up against Brodeur, Chelios, Hasek and Lidstrom for candidacy, Forsberg won't get in. If he's up against two or three of them, he will. I think he'd get in ahead of Fedorov. No matter your definition of greatness or HHOF candidacy, you should be voting for Forsberg. You want peak value? He has it. You want media-voted awards and accolades? He has them. You want numbers? The only one he lacks is games played.
For me, I evaluate the player. He was a freak, an incredible player who, in turn, did incredible things for an 11-season span. He dominated all aspects of the game at all times of the season.
He missed an entire season in 2001-02, and then stepped into Colorado's line-up and was the best player in the 2002 playoffs. He didn't play in the NHL for 10 1/2 months from May 2001 to April 2002 . Yet the moment he stepped on the ice, the guy who should have been in pre-season form, from a game shape perspective, was better than the guys who were in late season form. Incredible.
Incidentally, on the Lidstrom vs. Forsberg debate...
I think Lidstrom was the better player, had the better career, did more in the NHL, etc. I think you could make a case for him as the greatest European-born, European-trained NHL player ever. He's not flaky like Jagr, and he's more reliable than Hasek. He never quit on his team, never asked for a trade. Brings it every night. If those three - Lidstrom, Jagr, Hasek - wind up on the HHOF ballot together, I think most in the room would pick Lidstrom first, although all three would certainly get in.
In terms of what he means to Swedish hockey, for whatever reason, Forsberg seems to get the nod, and it boils down to one thing: The Goal. That goal in the 1994 Olympics, during the shootout against Canada, is one of the most celebrated moments in Swedish sport history. It's on a friggin' postage stamp. It should have never happened - Canada twice failed to finish off the Swedes when they had golden opportunities (once in regulation, once in the shootout, and besides, the shootout should never be used in that setting, or any setting, for what it's worth).
But when you consider that goal, and that gold medal, and all that it means to Swedish hockey and Swedish sport, and then all that Forsberg did in the NHL, yeah, I can see why Swedes would view Forsberg as the greatest Swedish player ever, even though Lidstrom was the better player.
I think Lidstrom was the better player, had the better career, did more in the NHL, etc. I think you could make a case for him as the greatest European-born, European-trained NHL player ever. He's not flaky like Jagr, and he's more reliable than Hasek. He never quit on his team, never asked for a trade. Brings it every night. If those three - Lidstrom, Jagr, Hasek - wind up on the HHOF ballot together, I think most in the room would pick Lidstrom first, although all three would certainly get in.
In terms of what he means to Swedish hockey, for whatever reason, Forsberg seems to get the nod, and it boils down to one thing: The Goal. That goal in the 1994 Olympics, during the shootout against Canada, is one of the most celebrated moments in Swedish sport history. It's on a friggin' postage stamp. It should have never happened - Canada twice failed to finish off the Swedes when they had golden opportunities (once in regulation, once in the shootout, and besides, the shootout should never be used in that setting, or any setting, for what it's worth).
But when you consider that goal, and that gold medal, and all that it means to Swedish hockey and Swedish sport, and then all that Forsberg did in the NHL, yeah, I can see why Swedes would view Forsberg as the greatest Swedish player ever, even though Lidstrom was the better player.
Slapshooter
Registered User
- Apr 25, 2007
- 717
- 2
Talking about international games, I always felt that Mats Sundin outplayed Forsberg when they were both in Team Sweden.
But Forsberg has that legendary olympic gold winning shootout goal, so Swedes probably rank him better in that category too.
Lead Role in a Cage
Registered User
- Mar 27, 2008
- 435
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I'd like to add that Lidstrom's appearances in the national team, both 1998 and 2002, not exactly were seen as successful. On the contrary really, and not until 2006 I think the common Swede realised how good he was/is.
Yes the trophies and the cups arrived way before. But finishing high on scoring list, while at the same time being an absolutely electrifying (can't find a better word just now) player and winning with the Swedish NT in the World Championship made it easy to like or appreciate one player more than the other.
Add to this the fact that the Red Wings always advanced far which meant the most Swedes never got a chance to watch him play. The 90's and early 00's didn't offer the same kind of exposure of the NHL for Swedes and ergo the rare occasion we got to watch any of them play was in the NT, unless you paid good money for cable TV and had time to burn during the nights. Which some had.
Perhaps it took some time for the NHL to appreciate Lidstrom. For Swedes in general it took even longer.
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Franck
eltiT resU motsuC
I don't think you can understate the importance of Forsberg staying in Sweden until he was considered to be the very best player in the league has had to the attention he has been given by the media in Sweden and to his popularity.
Players like Sundin, Alfredsson and Lidström were good but not great SEL players when they left for the NHL, this meant that neither the media nor the fans had really recognised their talents or hyped them before they went into the media black hole that the NHL was and to some extent still is in Sweden.
This meant that they had to earn all their media attention, and the only realistic way for them to do that is through international tournaments. Sundin did this very quickly by lining up stellar performances during multiple World Championships, Lidström had his proper breakthrough during the 2006 Olympics while Alfredsson still hasn't had his mainstream breakthrough and likely never will. Your average (non-NHL fan) Swede will probably think of a guy like Jörgen Jönsson as a better/more notable player than him.
Forsberg was so hyped from his time with Modo that both the media and the average fan wanted to follow his progress in the NHL from the very moment he got there. The same thing can be seen to a lesser extent with Zetterberg and Lundqvist who were both established stars in Sweden before going to the NHL.
Players like Sundin, Alfredsson and Lidström were good but not great SEL players when they left for the NHL, this meant that neither the media nor the fans had really recognised their talents or hyped them before they went into the media black hole that the NHL was and to some extent still is in Sweden.
This meant that they had to earn all their media attention, and the only realistic way for them to do that is through international tournaments. Sundin did this very quickly by lining up stellar performances during multiple World Championships, Lidström had his proper breakthrough during the 2006 Olympics while Alfredsson still hasn't had his mainstream breakthrough and likely never will. Your average (non-NHL fan) Swede will probably think of a guy like Jörgen Jönsson as a better/more notable player than him.
Forsberg was so hyped from his time with Modo that both the media and the average fan wanted to follow his progress in the NHL from the very moment he got there. The same thing can be seen to a lesser extent with Zetterberg and Lundqvist who were both established stars in Sweden before going to the NHL.
I know many Swedes agree on that. The debate regarding best Swede (ever) is usually a battle between Forsberg and Sundin, rather than Lidstrom. This is perhaps mainly due to contributions for their national team, where Lidstrom hasn't exactlly been a superstar. It seems most Swedes actually think of Kenny Jonsson as the most liked, and perhaps best defenceman during the last years. Kenny also was better than Lidstrom during the Olympics 2006, and even was elected best defenseman in the tournament (if I remember right), despite at the time playing in Sweden's 2nd highest league. Regarding Sundin, it should be noted that he very often led his NHL teams in scoring (lots of seasons in a row!), and always performed great when playing for Sweden.
Regarding the penalty shot in 1994, it obviously brings fond memories to Swedes. It might be noted that in comparison to Forsberg, the other hero in the sequense - Tommy Salo - today stands for negative associations. Despite being a great goalie for Sweden, including helping them winning the World Championship after 0-0 and 1-0 in the best-of-two-games finals vs Finland, Salo is more connected to allowing a long shot goal vs Belarus. Very unfair, it can seem.
Something forgotten is also that both Salo and Lidstrom helped Swedish team Vasteras to during a season win their "president's trophy". Vasteras before and after that has not been in their Elite League.
Anyway, one has to understand that Forsberg - at least in people's eyes - have contributed so much more than Lidstrom on the national team, and domestic, arena.
Finally, please note my statistics above regarding Forsberg's career. Note how he for that 10 year period is an overall top-3 in basically every category, like scoring pts, having great +/-, performing in the playoffs, etc.
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
Forsberg should be well deserving Hall of Famer, most likely first ballot. Could be interesting case if for example Lidström, Modano and Hasek are eligible in the same year (I doubt Jagr or Brodeur retire after this season).
Nevertheless, I really despise the common theme that Forsberg's points per game or goals per game stats are constantly brought up. Forsberg's actual totals make him great while reference to PPG and GPG stats tries to portray him as more than that. The fact is that he did no good for his team while he was injured and since he was already quite established player as he entered into league, his career consists mostly of his prime. Without looking at the actual numbers, I would guess that quite many players would have approximately equal PPG numbers if we choose only similar part of their career (basically 10 best years), while also having at least good seasons in top of those, while Forsberg lacks those additional years.
As noted, Forsberg was great. Between 94/95 and 06/07 (his entire career basically), he was 5th in points and 3rd in assists. Great, but not "beyond competition" numbers as I feel that references to his "per game" stats tries to indicate.
Nevertheless, I really despise the common theme that Forsberg's points per game or goals per game stats are constantly brought up. Forsberg's actual totals make him great while reference to PPG and GPG stats tries to portray him as more than that. The fact is that he did no good for his team while he was injured and since he was already quite established player as he entered into league, his career consists mostly of his prime. Without looking at the actual numbers, I would guess that quite many players would have approximately equal PPG numbers if we choose only similar part of their career (basically 10 best years), while also having at least good seasons in top of those, while Forsberg lacks those additional years.
As noted, Forsberg was great. Between 94/95 and 06/07 (his entire career basically), he was 5th in points and 3rd in assists. Great, but not "beyond competition" numbers as I feel that references to his "per game" stats tries to indicate.
I can't remember if the 4 per year is a max rule or convention but Forsberg is a 1st ballot guy.
The only thing he lacks is longevity but he still had over 700 regular season games and 150 plus playoff games where he just flat out excelled.
Forsberg came into the league at age 21, sure it was prime for him.
Maybe if he came in at 18 he would have exploded even sooner who knows.
Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,145
Yeah, Sundin outplayed everyone when he was in a Swedish uniform. Forsberg, Naslund, Lidstrom, Alfie............everyone.
Sundin is just plain and simple one of the most under rated guys in the last 20 years IMO.
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