So now that Forsberg has officially quit

belgarath

Registered User
Jan 27, 2007
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0
As a swede Lidström is not really close to Sundin and Forsberg in terms of greatest swede ever. Lidströms career has been amazing but he's had some less than great performances in tre kronor and of course he has played less for them, and if we are talking peak, for me Forsberg is in a class of his own.

This is nothing that I can boil down to stats or something tangible, it was just the feeling that suddenly Forsberg could change a game, through a tackle, an amazing pass or that steely glare in his eyes.


The olympic goal was a big reason for his legend status in Sweden, his amazing 1994 playoffs with Modo with the disappointing end also added to his reputation, and of course all those great performances in Tre kronor (even if Sundin was often just as good).
 

vippe

Registered User
Mar 18, 2008
14,234
1,184
Sweden
Talking about international games, I always felt that Mats Sundin outplayed Forsberg when they were both in Team Sweden.

But Forsberg has that legendary olympic gold winning shootout goal, so Swedes probably rank him better in that category too.

It's most certainly true. Sundin is one of those guys whose game really raised itself in international competition. He's one of the best international performers of all time where as Forsberg was great but not as great as Sundin or another excellent international performer in Selanne.

This coming from a huge Forsbergfan aswell
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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As a swede Lidström is not really close to Sundin and Forsberg in terms of greatest swede ever. Lidströms career has been amazing but he's had some less than great performances in tre kronor and of course he has played less for them, and if we are talking peak, for me Forsberg is in a class of his own.

This is nothing that I can boil down to stats or something tangible, it was just the feeling that suddenly Forsberg could change a game, through a tackle, an amazing pass or that steely glare in his eyes.


The olympic goal was a big reason for his legend status in Sweden, his amazing 1994 playoffs with Modo with the disappointing end also added to his reputation, and of course all those great performances in Tre kronor (even if Sundin was often just as good).

Lidstrom barely got a chance to play for team Sweden, because he routinely helped his NHL team go deep into the playoffs.

I guess I understand why that makes him thought of less highly by Swedes who casually follow his career.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Lidstrom barely got a chance to play for team Sweden, because he routinely helped his NHL team go deep into the playoffs.

I guess I understand why that makes him thought of less highly by Swedes who casually follow his career.

Actually, it's more of a case of him declining to go to World Championships compared to Forsberg. When he was with the Avalanche, Forsberg failed to make it past the second round three times (1998, 2003, and 2004), and he went to the World Championships each time - and was the team's leading scorer in their 1998 Gold Medal win. In his single year with Quebec, despite their early exit, the playoffs started too late for him to go.

Lidstrom, comparatively, only went in 1994 and 2004 during his NHL career (for a total of 6 games), despite the Red Wings getting knocked out prior to the end of Sweden's World Championship run in 1992, 1993, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2006, and 2010 as well.

Maybe he was less interested because he had already won one prior to Detroit, but neither that nor going deep into the playoffs are excuses relative to the international service of Forsberg and Sundin, particularly in 2001 and 2003, when Lidstrom could've played the entire tournaments.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
16,384
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I think the "Swedish view" given here is not really an acceptable position. Forsberg's best international play didn't even come in "best vs. best" tournaments. Forsberg was a great talent but Lidstrom is the greatest ever European D-man for sure and probably top 5 all-time amongst all D-men.

Forsberg simply was hugely hyped in Europe (and as time went on in NA as well) as the next big thing before he had ever played a NHL game. Forsberg was a scoring superstar in Sweden as a 19-20 year old and the last thing he did before coming over to the NHL was win the Olympics with Sweden. He was basically a household name even then. Then you have his dad being well-known in Sweden, his business ventures. He's just enjoying a huge media profile there. Lidstrom has pretty much been in America since 1991 and as a low profile guy and D-man to boot he's bound to be less of a media darling.
 

LiveeviL

No unique points
Jan 5, 2009
7,106
249
Sweden
I was just making a point that in Sweden Forsberg is seen as the greatest Swedish player not Lidstrom. Are you trying to tell me you or anyone else can tell from watching games that Lidstrom is better than Forsberg? Well that would be a ridiculous claim because it's entirely arguable who's better, and the reason the general consensus is Lidstrom is simply because he's had the healthier and more valuable career. On a per game basis Forsberg was simply a better player IMO.

That is a valid point. On top of that, the Lillehammer gold was really big for Sweden. That is important to point out. Forsberg became the symbol of that Gold medal - not Tommy Salo who actually setted the score with his last save, he became a symbol later on...

I think the "Swedish view" given here is not really an acceptable position. Forsberg's best international play didn't even come in "best vs. best" tournaments. Forsberg was a great talent but Lidstrom is the greatest ever European D-man for sure and probably top 5 all-time amongst all D-men.

Forsberg simply was hugely hyped in Europe (and as time went on in NA as well) as the next big thing before he had ever played a NHL game. Forsberg was a scoring superstar in Sweden as a 19-20 year old and the last thing he did before coming over to the NHL was win the Olympics with Sweden. He was basically a household name even then. Then you have his dad being well-known in Sweden, his business ventures. He's just enjoying a huge media profile there. Lidstrom has pretty much been in America since 1991 and as a low profile guy and D-man to boot he's bound to be less of a media darling.

Forsberg did get a lot of media attention for sure, but of course it was backed up with some substance as well. And of course Lidström is spectacular in his own way, but Forsberg was far more spectacular when it came to flashy stuff - which counts very much according to media.
 

TheGoldenJet

Registered User
Apr 2, 2008
9,419
4,507
Coquitlam, BC
Nevertheless, I really despise the common theme that Forsberg's points per game or goals per game stats are constantly brought up. Forsberg's actual totals make him great while reference to PPG and GPG stats tries to portray him as more than that. The fact is that he did no good for his team while he was injured and since he was already quite established player as he entered into league, his career consists mostly of his prime. Without looking at the actual numbers, I would guess that quite many players would have approximately equal PPG numbers if we choose only similar part of their career (basically 10 best years), while also having at least good seasons in top of those, while Forsberg lacks those additional years.

As noted, Forsberg was great. Between 94/95 and 06/07 (his entire career basically), he was 5th in points and 3rd in assists. Great, but not "beyond competition" numbers as I feel that references to his "per game" stats tries to indicate.

Great point.

Basically, if he played an actual career's worth of games (1000-1200), his numbers would have been rather mediocre. So his numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt, and compared to others peak numbers, rather than their career stats.

We saw his latest attempt to come back where he had 0 points and a -4 rating in two games. Add another several hundred games after these and his stats are looking rather ugly. Forsberg would rather retire now with too few games played than risk embarrasing himself any further.
 

Lexus

OWN THE MOMENT.
Jan 29, 2009
3,869
806
Great point.

Basically, if he played an actual career's worth of games (1000-1200), his numbers would have been rather mediocre. So his numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt, and compared to others peak numbers, rather than their career stats.

We saw his latest attempt to come back where he had 0 points and a -4 rating in two games. Add another several hundred games after these and his stats are looking rather ugly. Forsberg would rather retire now with too few games played than risk embarrasing himself any further.

:laugh:

Obvious troll is obvious.

2 games is good enough for a sample size for you?
What about in 2008 then, he didn't have any points in his first 2 games in that comeback either.
But he had 14 points and a +7 rating in the other 7 games he played (remainder of the season).

He would've won the scoring title that year pretty easy in that rate, playing on one foot.

Forsberg quit because he couldn't play at the level HE wanted to (even though most of the players/coaches/experts said he was among the best players on the ice in those games).
 
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steveott

Registered User
Mar 13, 2011
200
1
Great point.

Basically, if he played an actual career's worth of games (1000-1200), his numbers would have been rather mediocre. So his numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt, and compared to others peak numbers, rather than their career stats.

We saw his latest attempt to come back where he had 0 points and a -4 rating in two games. Add another several hundred games after these and his stats are looking rather ugly. Forsberg would rather retire now with too few games played than risk embarrasing himself any further.

made some calculations..
PPG 10 years in a row.

Jagr 1,423448
Yzerman 1,408163
Oates 1,365506
Hawerc 1,283733
Sakic 1,285511
Selanne 1,257456
Foppa 1.250000 (career)
Lindros 1,228482 (1,355 before concussion)
Turgeon 1,206986

Some started as 18 years old so I started calculating from 1st decent season.
I didn’t try to find all the bests. Just some of the good ones

I left obvious “monsters” out: Gretzky,Lemieux,Esposito, Bossy…
Foppa has quality PPG but not exceptional.

far from "mediocre".... (1.25)
 
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The Kingslayer

Registered User
Aug 26, 2004
76,328
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Siem Reap, Cambodia
Great point.

Basically, if he played an actual career's worth of games (1000-1200), his numbers would have been rather mediocre. So his numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt, and compared to others peak numbers, rather than their career stats.

We saw his latest attempt to come back where he had 0 points and a -4 rating in two games. Add another several hundred games after these and his stats are looking rather ugly. Forsberg would rather retire now with too few games played than risk embarrasing himself any further.

Ok. I guess Forsberg was a fraud from the start. Damn you really showed me something. :shakehead To answer the question Forsberg is HOF bound and he will most likely be first ballot.
 

NiklasF

Registered User
Apr 15, 2009
51
0
Regular season points per game

Minimum 500 points

1. Wayne Gretzky, 1.921
2. Mario Lemieux, 1.883
3. Mike Bossy, 1.497
4. Bobby Orr, 1.393
5. Sidney Crosby, 1.364
6. Alexander Ovechkin, 1.336
7. Marcel Dionne, 1.314
8. Peter Stastny, 1.268
9. Jaromir Jagr, 1.256
10. Peter Forsberg, 1.254
11. Kent Nilsson, 1.240
12. Phil Esposito, 1.240

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_statistical_leaders

Yes and yes. He also was a proven winner and i could give hundred of more reason why he should be in the Hall of Fame if we put the stats a side.
 

steveott

Registered User
Mar 13, 2011
200
1
Regular season points per game

Minimum 500 points

1. Wayne Gretzky, 1.921
2. Mario Lemieux, 1.883
3. Mike Bossy, 1.497
4. Bobby Orr, 1.393
5. Sidney Crosby, 1.364
6. Alexander Ovechkin, 1.336
7. Marcel Dionne, 1.314
8. Peter Stastny, 1.268
9. Jaromir Jagr, 1.256
10. Peter Forsberg, 1.254
11. Kent Nilsson, 1.240
12. Phil Esposito, 1.240

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_statistical_leaders

Yes and yes. He also was a proven winner and i could give hundred of more reason why he should be in the Hall of Fame if we put the stats a side.

Nice stats you have found but unfortunately that doesnt tell us much. You cant compare Forsberg ,Orr or Bossy to those guys who have full career.

You can compare those 3 to each other if you want.

1. Mike Bossy, 1.497
2. Bobby Orr, 1.393
3. Peter Forsberg, 1.254

If we do make some research and take SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES during players peak i should guess that FOPPA is not in TOP 50!
 

NiklasF

Registered User
Apr 15, 2009
51
0
Nice stats you have found but unfortunately that doesnt tell us much. You cant compare Forsberg ,Orr or Bossy to those guys who have full career.

You can compare those 3 to each other if you want.

1. Mike Bossy, 1.497
2. Bobby Orr, 1.393
3. Peter Forsberg, 1.254

If we do make some research and take SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES during players peak i should guess that FOPPA is not in TOP 50!

As i also wrote i could give you hundred more reason why he should be in HOF if we put the stats aside. And i also don't like to compare stats becuase the game of hockey is diffrent from then and now so the stats doesn't tell the whole story (But i love to watch stats) and some of the player have played alot more games and so on.

But i see your point sir, until you said he wouldn't be in the top 50 even.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
Regular season points per game

Minimum 500 points

1. Wayne Gretzky, 1.921
2. Mario Lemieux, 1.883
3. Mike Bossy, 1.497
4. Bobby Orr, 1.393
5. Sidney Crosby, 1.364
6. Alexander Ovechkin, 1.336
7. Marcel Dionne, 1.314
8. Peter Stastny, 1.268
9. Jaromir Jagr, 1.256
10. Peter Forsberg, 1.254
11. Kent Nilsson, 1.240
12. Phil Esposito, 1.240

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_statistical_leaders

Yes and yes. He also was a proven winner and i could give hundred of more reason why he should be in the Hall of Fame if we put the stats a side.

I'm on the side of "pro-HOF" and "pro-First Ballot in any likely scenario," but any list that has Kent Nilsson on it probably isn't the best argument.
 

NiklasF

Registered User
Apr 15, 2009
51
0
I'm on the side of "pro-HOF" and "pro-First Ballot in any likely scenario," but any list that has Kent Nilsson on it probably isn't the best argument.

Yeah I know, i just copy the whole freaking list from wiki, i should have cut it down to the top ten. :)
 

steveott

Registered User
Mar 13, 2011
200
1
As i also wrote i could give you hundred more reason why he should be in HOF if we put the stats aside. And i also don't like to compare stats becuase the game of hockey is diffrent from then and now so the stats doesn't tell the whole story (But i love to watch stats) and some of the player have played alot more games and so on.

But i see your point sir, until you said he wouldn't be in the top 50 even.

To be fair.. lets say TOP 30 (adjust the era and maybe TOP 20)

There is one thing that many stats - enthusiasts dont take into account. Full NHL season is extremely strenuous and anyone playing only 50 - 60 games receive significant benefits from resting those missing games. thats why they are capable scoring better PPGs. (How about resting whole year and showing up only playoffs?)

AND to answer the question Forsberg belongs to hhof. Wouldnt be unfair to be on 1st ballot but i dont believe that.

There are just too many quality - guys waiting. If they arent significantly worse than foppa they will bypass him..
 

LiveeviL

No unique points
Jan 5, 2009
7,106
249
Sweden
To be fair.. lets say TOP 30 (adjust the era and maybe TOP 20)

There is one thing that many stats - enthusiasts dont take into account. Full NHL season is extremely strenuous and anyone playing only 50 - 60 games receive significant benefits from resting those missing games. thats why they are capable scoring better PPGs. (How about resting whole year and showing up only playoffs?)


AND to answer the question Forsberg belongs to hhof. Wouldnt be unfair to be on 1st ballot but i dont believe that.

There are just too many quality - guys waiting. If they arent significantly worse than foppa they will bypass him..


Yeah getting points is certainly easier in play off. :help:

About "resting", coming back from injuries is certainly not a given way of getting more points/game. I wonder why players need conditioning stints. Probably because they need to cool down when coming back from injuries so that they don't own the league totally with their "rested" fitness.
 

plusandminus

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
1,404
268
Again, I encourage you to look at the stats gathered in post #35 in this thread. They tell you how good (or bad) Forsberg was during his career, compared to all the other players in the league that played at the same time as him.

1st in total +/-, regular season
1st in total +/-, playoffs
1st in +/- per game, regular season
1st in +/- per game, playoffs.

5th in total pts, regular season
2rd in total pts, playoffs
3rd in pts per game, regular season
3rd in pts per game, playoffs

36th in total goals, regular season
30th (ca) in goals per game, regular season
2nd in total goals, playoffs
5th in goals per game, playoffs (!)

1st in total assists, regular season
1st in total assists, playoffs
1st(?) in assists per game, regular season
2nd in assists per game, playoffs (slightly behind Mario)

Top-10 alltime in pts per game
4th alltime in assists per game
3 times leading playoff scorer if counting pts per game.
2 times in a row most regular season pts per game. (Also had 14 points in 9 games = 1.56 pts/game a couple of seasons later.)

I'm not saying he's the best player ever, but the stats above sort of suprised me as I didn't know he was that consistent. There usually was someone else having more pts in a particular season, and there was someone better during the two times Avs won Stanley Cup. But what the stats show, is that Forsberg - while playing in a good environment - season after season showed great consistency.


Lexus in post #37 nicely summarize some of the throphies, etc Forsberg gained during his career.


Also, in response to those just looking at his career pts per game, comparing with players playing in more high scoring eras is in my opinion not very wise. Better to look at other players stats during the same time. (This is also in accordance with my viewpoint that Gretzky's and Mario's stats should also mainly be compared to those playing at the same time as them, rather than those playing in other eras.)
 
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steveott

Registered User
Mar 13, 2011
200
1
Again, I encourage you to look at the stats gathered in post #35 in this thread. They tell you how good (or bad) Forsberg was during his career, compared to all the other players in the league that played at the same time as him.


This is another twisted stats - trick..

Players whose career overlapped at the start dont qualify..
Players whose career overlapped at the end dont qualify..

You are comparing Foppa ONLY to players whose career started before and ended after foppas career. ( Was this time their peak or not. )

you actually drop out 80% of competition and then declare the results!
 
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steveott

Registered User
Mar 13, 2011
200
1
stats are really tricky..
Only reasonable way to compare players is SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES at their peak. Those stats can be adjusted with era (league average points per game without the player in question)

Even this approach has many flaws:

1) Team mates
2) Coach (playing trap or open game)
3) Assists are NOT goals
4) Weak vs strong division / conference
 

livewell68

Registered User
Jul 20, 2007
8,680
52
Incidentally, on the Lidstrom vs. Forsberg debate...

I think Lidstrom was the better player, had the better career, did more in the NHL, etc. I think you could make a case for him as the greatest European-born, European-trained NHL player ever. He's not flaky like Jagr, and he's more reliable than Hasek. He never quit on his team, never asked for a trade. Brings it every night. If those three - Lidstrom, Jagr, Hasek - wind up on the HHOF ballot together, I think most in the room would pick Lidstrom first, although all three would certainly get in.

In terms of what he means to Swedish hockey, for whatever reason, Forsberg seems to get the nod, and it boils down to one thing: The Goal. That goal in the 1994 Olympics, during the shootout against Canada, is one of the most celebrated moments in Swedish sport history. It's on a friggin' postage stamp. It should have never happened - Canada twice failed to finish off the Swedes when they had golden opportunities (once in regulation, once in the shootout, and besides, the shootout should never be used in that setting, or any setting, for what it's worth).

But when you consider that goal, and that gold medal, and all that it means to Swedish hockey and Swedish sport, and then all that Forsberg did in the NHL, yeah, I can see why Swedes would view Forsberg as the greatest Swedish player ever, even though Lidstrom was the better player.

Jagr flaky?: lol
 

matnor

Registered User
Oct 3, 2009
512
3
Boston
Nice stats you have found but unfortunately that doesnt tell us much. You cant compare Forsberg ,Orr or Bossy to those guys who have full career.

You can compare those 3 to each other if you want.

1. Mike Bossy, 1.497
2. Bobby Orr, 1.393
3. Peter Forsberg, 1.254

If we do make some research and take SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES during players peak i should guess that FOPPA is not in TOP 50!

Your point is fair in that if we only look at points per game we would severely overrate Forsberg (to me, he is not a top-10 offensive player of all time). However, I think some people overrate how much of a drop he would have in his ppg over a full career. I tried to come up with some new metric in this thread to measure how many games a player has played at an elite level. So, let's take a look at Forsberg's numbers in comparison to some other players I think are comparable, namely: Mike Bossy, Eric Lindros, Joe Sakic, Peter Stastny, Bryan Trottier and Steve Yzerman.

Number of games (normalized to a 82-game schedule) playing at a top-5 pace:

Rank | Player | Games
24. | Mike Bossy | 392
26. | Joe Sakic | 377
27. | Peter Forsberg | 346
29. | Eric Lindros | 338
34. | Steve Yzerman | 311
35. | Bryan Trottier | 309
47. | Peter Stastny | 237

Number of games (normalized to a 82-game schedule) playing at a top-10 pace:

Rank | Player | Games
16. | Joe Sakic | 693
23. | Mike Bossy | 629
28. | Peter Forsberg | 553
31. | Steve Yzerman | 530
33. | Eric Lindros | 528
44. | Peter Stastny | 476
49. | Bryan Trottier | 463

Number of games (normalized to a 82-game schedule) playing at a top-20 pace:

Rank | Player | Games
10. | Joe Sakic | 1120
22. | Steve Yzerman | 851
31. | Mike Bossy | 771
41. | Peter Stastny | 692
44. | Peter Forsberg | 682
59. | Bryan Trottier | 625
81. | Eric Lindros | 528

My conclusion from these numbers is that Forsberg stack up pretty well against these players. Despite the fact that he only played 708 games he has more games playing at a top-5 and top-10 pace than Stastny, Trottier and Yzerman. Looking at number of games played at a top-20 pace we really start to see Forsberg loosing ground. Especially to Sakic who has fantastic longevity, but also to Yzerman. Surprisingly, he is still ahead of Trottier.

Based on these numbers, and also how Forsberg performed in the playoffs and internationally, I think Forsberg should be firmly ahead of Stastny. While Lindros was probably a better player at his peak, I think Forsberg should be ahead of him based on the same argument, plus that Lindros' career really took a downturn at the end. As for comparing with Sakic and Yzerman I think Forsberg were just as good a player, but he should loose out to them in an all-time perspective. You can't ignore that they played double the number of games as Forsberg did. The same should hold for Trottier. While his numbers here isn't that spectacular he has a reputation for being a great defensive player, plus he also has a big advantage in longevity.

Which brings us to Bossy. I have said it before and I say it again, Bossy is a really good comparison to Forsberg in terms of career value (though obviously two completely different types of players). I probably give an edge to Bossy offensively, but Forsberg had probably more defensive value. Both players played great in the playoffs but had their careers cut short leaving them with similar number of games played. Bossy has 4 cups to Forsberg's 2. On the other hand, Forsberg faced a competition that included all Russian players. To me it's really close between them and I would like to hear arguments from either side. Obviously, Bossy was ranked much higher on the HOH Top 100 list (Bossy 29, Forsberg 65) so I understand there is more to be said here.
 

steveott

Registered User
Mar 13, 2011
200
1
Which brings us to Bossy. I have said it before and I say it again, Bossy is a really good comparison to Forsberg in terms of career value (though obviously two completely different types of players). I probably give an edge to Bossy offensively, but Forsberg had probably more defensive value. Both players played great in the playoffs but had their careers cut short leaving them with similar number of games played. Bossy has 4 cups to Forsberg's 2. On the other hand, Forsberg faced a competition that included all Russian players. To me it's really close between them and I would like to hear arguments from either side. Obviously, Bossy was ranked much higher on the HOH Top 100 list (Bossy 29, Forsberg 65) so I understand there is more to be said here.

After all PPGs , woulda,shoulda's and intangibles and whatever there is only one thing that REALLY matters: GOALS!

And even more so: goals in playoffs.
And even more so: goals made in SC winning team.

4 cups in a row: goals (10,17,17,17). thats why he is no: 29.

Many share the (wrong) opinion that Kurri is overrated.
5 cups : goals (14,19,15,14,10).

This is ice-hockey! There is no separate prize for:

0) "PPGs"
1) "dominating"
2) "nice passing"
3) "working hardest"
4) "back-checking like no tomorrow"
5) "having meanest look"
6) "woulda,shouldas"

Highest scoring win!!
 
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