So Babcock needs to go

[Nithoniniel]

Babcock's biggest flaw amidst everything else, is that he attempts to make a team play the way he wants them when they're designed to play a different style. He's got a team that has Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares and a bunch of mobile wingers as well as a top 3 blueline when it comes to mobility, yet his system dictates an overuse of the stretch pass when every observable metric has shown that controlled zone entries lead to not only more chances, but higher quality chances as well. He is and never has been the right man to lead this team and he should have never been given the 8 year term.

Yeah, I've talked about this too. We have a team full of transition specialists, yet when someone charted carrying or dump-in tendencies, Leafs ended up well into the dump-in quarter. I think you're absolutely right here. Instead of utilizing the strengths of the team, he's trying to get the team to adapt to him instead.

 

[MattySnipes]

Babcock's biggest flaw amidst everything else, is that he attempts to make a team play the way he wants them when they're designed to play a different style. He's got a team that has Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares and a bunch of mobile wingers as well as a top 3 blueline when it comes to mobility, yet his system dictates an overuse of the stretch pass when every observable metric has shown that controlled zone entries lead to not only more chances, but higher quality chances as well. He is and never has been the right man to lead this team and he should have never been given the 8 year term.

The 2015-2016 Leafs team was perfect for Babs. All hard work and jam. No talent besides Rielly + Nylander. He's not the man for this team. Crazy how stubborn he can be. Everyone is wrong. He's always right.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

Our bottom six did so well because they're barely cognizant of Babs system - I bet as of now they are just to shutdown the lines enough for the top 6 to do theirs jobs

Turns out if you dont leash and mitigate skilled speedy players they can do great things.

The top 6 are like uhhhhhhhh We need to chip it in and play it safe.
( Does not apply to Matthews )

 

[DarkKnight]

Matthews lead all forwards in ice time.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Babcock's biggest flaw amidst everything else, is that he attempts to make a team play the way he wants them when they're designed to play a different style. He's got a team that has Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares and a bunch of mobile wingers as well as a top 3 blueline when it comes to mobility, yet his system dictates an overuse of the stretch pass when every observable metric has shown that controlled zone entries lead to not only more chances, but higher quality chances as well. He is and never has been the right man to lead this team and he should have never been given the 8 year term.

That may been more true the past 1 or 2 seasons, but not this one to this point. The stretch pass isn't nearly has prevalent now. Also, while controlled entries are preferred, there have been indications that a lot or goals come within 10 seconds of entering the zone. Now how that's interpreted I guess is down to the person, but it did come to my attention via an TSN article by Travis Yost where Dermott and his outlet pass completion was the subject, so I assumed it meant quick transition aka the "stretch pass".

At the moment though, our 1st pp unit with all that talent you described is having trouble getting clean entries. 5 v 5 it's only more difficult.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Dubas wasn't GM when the Leafs set a franchise record in points .

Re-read what you quoted.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Nobody's falling for Babcock's **** anymore.

A lot of the naive fans were still on board with him for the majority of last year but even they've woken up and smelled the coffee now.

The only real supporters Babcock has left are anti Leafs trolls in disguise and blind fanboys.

Dubas is hoping and praying that the fans don't turn their wrath from Babcock and put it towards him. He's going to hold off on firing Babcock for as long as humanly possible because he don't want that smoke.

No offense but the wrath of HF Boards would probably make me think I was on the right path. This place isn't exactly a beacon for intelligence.

 

[Ifittex il Verita]

Yeah, I've talked about this too. We have a team full of transition specialists, yet when someone charted carrying or dump-in tendencies, Leafs ended up well into the dump-in quarter. I think you're absolutely right here. Instead of utilizing the strengths of the team, he's trying to get the team to adapt to him instead.

I don't really have a problem with Babcock's methods. He's simply trying to recreate the formula he's had previous success with in the past. He's far from the only guy to do it.
My problem is with management. Either retool the team to fit Babcock's vision or fire him and bring someone else in who you figure is a better fit for the current team.

 

[hotpaws]

Re-read what you quoted.

It's always difficult to gauge how much credit one gets but in 3 separate leagues his teams have set franchise points records within at most 3-4 years of his being in a GMing capacity. That is fairly different than making $100,000.

i said he wasn't GM when the Leafs set a franchise record which you gave him credit for so i don't understand what i'm missing

 

[hobarth]

Babcock's biggest flaw amidst everything else, is that he attempts to make a team play the way he wants them when they're designed to play a different style. He's got a team that has Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares and a bunch of mobile wingers as well as a top 3 blueline when it comes to mobility, yet his system dictates an overuse of the stretch pass when every observable metric has shown that controlled zone entries lead to not only more chances, but higher quality chances as well. He is and never has been the right man to lead this team and he should have never been given the 8 year term.

I don't think you've seen Babs' coached teams from the past, especially his great Detroit teams. That team(s) was all about puck control, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, etc. were reliable when in possession of the puck. TO has talented forwards and d-men but who can be relied on to do the right things when in possession of the puck? Nylander comes to my mind, Marner somewhat, Rielly when he's in the zone and Barrie probably.

Babs stretch pass seems to me a very necessary reason for TO's success, to date. The less time the puck is in TO's zone the less likely TO is going to be scored on.

 

[sparxx87]

Nobody's falling for Babcock's **** anymore.

A lot of the naive fans were still on board with him for the majority of last year but even they've woken up and smelled the coffee now.

The only real supporters Babcock has left are anti Leafs trolls in disguise and blind fanboys.

Dubas is hoping and praying that the fans don't turn their wrath from Babcock and put it towards him. He's going to hold off on firing Babcock for as long as humanly possible because he don't want that smoke.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I don't think you've seen Babs' coached teams from the past, especially his great Detroit teams. That team(s) was all about puck control, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, etc. were reliable when in possession of the puck. TO has talented forwards and d-men but who can be relied on to do the right things when in possession of the puck? Nylander comes to my mind, Marner somewhat, Rielly when he's in the zone and Barrie probably.

Babs stretch pass seems to me a very necessary reason for TO's success, to date. The less time the puck is in TO's zone the less likely TO is going to be scored on.

Somehow I don't think leading the league in icings correlates very well with the puck not being in Toronto's zone.

Controlled exits/entries lead to less defending, our team is built for it.

 

[Trapper]

Yeah, I've talked about this too. We have a team full of transition specialists, yet when someone charted carrying or dump-in tendencies, Leafs ended up well into the dump-in quarter. I think you're absolutely right here. Instead of utilizing the strengths of the team, he's trying to get the team to adapt to him instead.

This team can't dump and chase or forecheck with regular intensity.
We lack the genetic makeup therefore we need a coach who can take full advantage of what we can do.
We would be best served playing a style that forces neutral zone turnovers and quick strikes. We don't maintain zone time like heavier teams so it's a rattlesnake type of offense. Quick strike, back to defense, force turnover, strike. Faster to loose pucks in our zone and out. This requires all forwards to come back and not drift.

 

[Trapper]

I don't think you've seen Babs' coached teams from the past, especially his great Detroit teams. That team(s) was all about puck control, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, etc. were reliable when in possession of the puck. TO has talented forwards and d-men but who can be relied on to do the right things when in possession of the puck? Nylander comes to my mind, Marner somewhat, Rielly when he's in the zone and Barrie probably.

Babs stretch pass seems to me a very necessary reason for TO's success, to date. The less time the puck is in TO's zone the less likely TO is going to be scored on.

In addition to those puck control players you mentioned above, Babs always had a compliment of heavy players that could keep the puck in the attacking zone and use their bodies to win battles/forecheck.
Players like the Mule(Franzen), Cleary, Eaves, Bertuzzi, etc. Hard bodies surrounding.

 

[hoglund]

Matthews lead all forwards in ice time.

He should.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

i said he wasn't GM when the Leafs set a franchise record which you gave him credit for so i don't understand what i'm missing

Try the GMing capacity part.

 

[Ifittex il Verita]

In addition to those puck control players you mentioned above, Babs always had a compliment of heavy players that could keep the puck in the attacking zone and use their bodies to win battles/forecheck.
Players like the Mule(Franzen), Cleary, Eaves, Bertuzzi, etc. Hard bodies surrounding.

That's what i insinuated before.
If you make Babcock pick between a group of guys like Komarov, Brown, Martin, Hyman, etc... vs a group of Kapanen, Johnsson, Kerfoot, Petan etc... his preference will obviously be towards the less offensively talented more forecheck heavy type players in group 1.
So my question is what the hell is management doing? They know Babcock prefers different players to what they've provided him with yet here we are with this oil and water mixture with no change in sight. We got 2 guys on completely different pages, seems like one massive waste of time to me.

 

[Ifittex il Verita]

In addition to those puck control players you mentioned above, Babs always had a compliment of heavy players that could keep the puck in the attacking zone and use their bodies to win battles/forecheck.
Players like the Mule(Franzen), Cleary, Eaves, Bertuzzi, etc. Hard bodies surrounding.

Contrary to popular belief the Red Wings weren't some uber skilled team who were leagues above everyone else.
They had their main 3 guys Dats, Zett, and Lidstrom and had a very hard-grinding lineup filling out the rest. Their goal was to get the lead and put themselves and their opponent to the grindstone where they came out on top 8/10 times.
This is very obviously the type of success that Babs is trying to recreate here but he's been given an entirely different lineup composition while management has traded away the types of players he prefers.

 

[Trapper]

Contrary to popular belief the Red Wings weren't some uber skilled team who were leagues above everyone else.
They had their main 3 guys Dats, Zett, and Lidstrom and had a very hard-grinding lineup filling out the rest. Their goal was to get the lead and put themselves and their opponent to the grindstone where they came out on top 8/10 times.
This is very obviously the type of success that Babs is trying to recreate here but he's been given an entirely different lineup composition while management has traded away the types of players he prefers.

Not to mention that Lidstrom himself is one of the top D of all time, never mind just league at the time and Matthews/Marner/Nylander are nowhere on the same level of Datsyuk/Z in terms of play without the puck. They were the Russian/Swedish version of Bergeron. Very different indeed and not how we play.

 

[stickty111]

If we are ranking Babcock, he is behind coaches in no particular order,
Cassidy
Peters
Brind'Amour
Montgomery
Q
Julliet
Laviolette
Trotz
Sullivan
Berube
Cooper
Gallant

Might be behind
Bednar
Tippett
AV
Krueger

Babcock is in the middle

 

[Trapper]

If we are ranking Babcock, he is behind coaches in no particular order,
Cassidy
Peters
Brind'Amour
Montgomery
Q
Julliet
Laviolette
Trotz
Sullivan
Berube
Cooper
Gallant

Might be behind
Bednar
Tippett
AV
Krueger

Babcock is in the middle

You can really debate this as two separate things:
1. Is Babcock a good coach?
2. Is Babcock a good coach for us?

Lots of good coaches have been hired, fired, hired, repeat.
Lots of coaches have won in certain places and not in others.

 

[ShaneFalco]

“He played for Mike Babcock for two years, so he might have to dumb some things down with us.”
– Pete DeBoer on reintegrating Patrick Marleau with the San Jose Sharks​

The MLHS staff debated this quote a bit – was it a shot at Babcock? Was it just an observation? I guess it doesn’t really matter, but I did think it was interesting and noteworthy. Sometimes you can stress too much detail and micromanage to the point of it being harmful. Marleau has three points in his first two games in San Jose.

Toronto Maple Leafs Notebook: Promising signs from the bottom six

 

[stickty111]

You can really debate this as two separate things:
1. Is Babcock a good coach?
2. Is Babcock a good coach for us?

Lots of good coaches have been hired, fired, hired, repeat.
Lots of coaches have won in certain places and not in others.

Oh for sure, I think Babs can work with certain rosters. He worked well with the last place group, but for a team that puts emphasis on skill, he isn't the best coach for that.

 

[Trapper]

“He played for Mike Babcock for two years, so he might have to dumb some things down with us.”
– Pete DeBoer on reintegrating Patrick Marleau with the San Jose Sharks​

The MLHS staff debated this quote a bit – was it a shot at Babcock? Was it just an observation? I guess it doesn’t really matter, but I did think it was interesting and noteworthy. Sometimes you can stress too much detail and micromanage to the point of it being harmful. Marleau has three points in his first two games in San Jose.

Toronto Maple Leafs Notebook: Promising signs from the bottom six

LOL Marleau needs to be deBabcocked or go GudPro cold turkey.

I liked this:
I think it should be very obvious to everyone that Kasperi Kapanen should go down to the third line and one of Trevor Moore or Ilya Mikheyev should get a look with Tavares and Marner. That line has not looked great, and while it’s not Kapanen’s fault, he is the easiest player to replace on the line.

No, not to everyone apparently.

 

[ACC1224]

LOL Marleau needs to be deBabcocked or go GudPro cold turkey.

I liked this:
I think it should be very obvious to everyone that Kasperi Kapanen should go down to the third line and one of Trevor Moore or Ilya Mikheyev should get a look with Tavares and Marner. That line has not looked great, and while it’s not Kapanen’s fault, he is the easiest player to replace on the line.

No, not to everyone apparently.

Think they are just looking to ride it out until Hyman gets back.
Is there an eta on his return?