So Babcock needs to go... (Part 2)

[Gary Nylund]

That statement is referring to what I stated earlier in that post.

Right, you listed 8 players who you think are doing well. One of them just got here from Russia, pretty strange to give Babcock credit for his play but OK. So 8 players on our team doing well, what about the rest of them?

If 8 guys doing well means to you that the coach is getting the most out of our players, I don't even know what to say to you.

 

[thewave]

Right, you listed 8 players who you think are doing well. One of them just got here from Russia, pretty strange to give Babcock credit for his play but OK. So 8 players on our team doing well, what about the rest of them?

If 8 guys doing well means to you that the coach is getting the most out of our players, I don't even know what to say to you.

Regardless of any of this Gary. The guys on the ice no matter the GM or Coach play Loser hockey. It's a boring uninspired catastrophe on ice. The worst show in town. One thing about sport and being a sports fan, doesn't matter what sport you watch, when you see fellow people driven and competing relentlessly with a goal in mind, it triggers a response in the viewer. You can not synthesize it or fake it. Fans are complaining and bailing on this team and tuning into the Raps because, like in my case, I am captivated by the drive of that inspiring motivated motivational team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Regardless of any of this Gary. The guys on the ice no matter the GM or Coach play Loser hockey. It's a boring uninspired catastrophe on ice. The worst show in town. One thing about sport and being a sports fan, doesn't matter what sport you watch, when you see fellow people driven and competing relentlessly with a goal in mind, it triggers a response in the viewer. You can not synthesize it or fake it. Fans are complaining and bailing on this team and tuning into the Raps because, like in my case, I am captivated by the drive of that inspiring motivated motivational team.

Yep.

 

[Pookie]

Uhh do you realize you completely contradicted yourself here?

Think he’s saying management as in general manager/president level.

Eg Cliff Fletcher in the early 90’s

 

[MyBudJT]

Right, you listed 8 players who you think are doing well. One of them just got here from Russia, pretty strange to give Babcock credit for his play but OK. So 8 players on our team doing well, what about the rest of them?

If 8 guys doing well means to you that the coach is getting the most out of our players, I don't even know what to say to you.

Ughhh... this is why context is important.

I was responding to the statement "every player that comes to Toronto seem to be a shadow of their former selves except for Tavares".

Aside from Tyson Barrie, there aren't many players that statement can be true for.

If you're going to bash a coach for not getting the most out of his players, you should at least acknowledge that a lot of players have thrived (and are currently thriving) under Babcock. Just look at guys like Komarov, Bozak, JVR, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Ennis... its not like these guys are playing any better on another team....

 

[Joedoggy]

Anyone keeping a running total of player turnover since Mikey came to Toronto?

Why the big turnover ?

 

[Walshy7]

Amazing that Muzzin's hits totals have dived off a cliff since joining the leafs, could it be age? yeah he is 30 now. But the year he was traded here he was on an 82 game pace to have 182 hits the 30 games with the leafs? a pace of 114. It would seem that a gameplan with the leafs must involve being told less hitting, that is 68 hits less over a season on pace for 114. If he played 82 with the leafs last year and had 114 hits and this year keeps up his 120 pace they are easily his lowest hit total seasons in the NHL over a full season, 162 was his lowest in LA!.

Before anyone decides that is on Dubas, dont be silly there is zero chance Dubas a GM could tell a player what they can and cant do on the ice. Babcock's gameplan involves stick checking its got to be as simple as that. So all this "softest team ever" threads must take that into account no?

Unless as i said earlier Muzzin just hit a wall and now cant hit anymore, that is of course possible if a little unlikely due to half season at LA and TO being so different last season.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Well for one Keefe has taken a freshly drafted D and turned him into an NHLer more than 0 times, so he's already leading Babcock on that front.

Not defending Babcock (who needed to go, like, yesterday) but Keefe has zero NHL experience. Not sure he’s the one Dubas should double down on when his time comes.

 

[Walshy7]

Not defending Babcock (who needed to go, like, yesterday) but Keefe has zero NHL experience. Not sure he’s the one Dubas should double down on when his time comes.

id prefer dubas double down on his philosophy and hire keefe (if keefe is the right man) than go hire some vet coach becasue he is worried about his job security. Dubas doesnt strike me as someone who will deviate their plan to save their career, feels more like he is so sure in his plan he'd easily take keefe as NHL coach

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Its been way too long for Babcock to not instill a cohesive system with the same core players.

He needs to go.

Next people on the chopping block

Has to be Dubas.

 

[Teeder Keon]

Amazing that Muzzin's hits totals have dived off a cliff since joining the leafs, could it be age? yeah he is 30 now. But the year he was traded here he was on an 82 game pace to have 182 hits the 30 games with the leafs? a pace of 114. It would seem that a gameplan with the leafs must involve being told less hitting, that is 68 hits less over a season on pace for 114. If he played 82 with the leafs last year and had 114 hits and this year keeps up his 120 pace they are easily his lowest hit total seasons in the NHL over a full season, 162 was his lowest in LA!.

Before anyone decides that is on Dubas, dont be silly there is zero chance Dubas a GM could tell a player what they can and cant do on the ice. Babcock's gameplan involves stick checking its got to be as simple as that. So all this "softest team ever" threads must take that into account no?

Unless as i said earlier Muzzin just hit a wall and now cant hit anymore, that is of course possible if a little unlikely due to half season at LA and TO being so different last season.

Speaking of Muzzin
I like him a lot but you reminded me of his age , and at 30 , I certainly wouldn’t resign him , as he is not fleet of skate already and usually when these type of skaters get older that part of their game diminishes even more .
The wAy the game is going , you can’t have tough skaters like that
It’s shame but unfortunately true

 

[Walshy7]

Speaking of Muzzin
I like him a lot but you reminded me of his age , and at 30 , I certainly wouldn’t resign him , as he is not fleet of skate already and usually when these type of skaters get older that part of their game diminishes even more .
The wAy the game is going , you can’t have tough skaters like that
It’s shame but unfortunately true

yep totally agree unless he will take like 3 years $3-4M maybe then but even that is pushing it. Just was interested in hist hits because he was seen as a hitting dman in LA he really isnt here

 

[mjhfb]

Speaking of Muzzin
I like him a lot but you reminded me of his age , and at 30 , I certainly wouldn’t resign him , as he is not fleet of skate already and usually when these type of skaters get older that part of their game diminishes even more .
The wAy the game is going , you can’t have tough skaters like that
It’s shame but unfortunately true

Chara says Muzzin has 12 more years.

 

[GoonieFace]

Amazing that Muzzin's hits totals have dived off a cliff since joining the leafs, could it be age? yeah he is 30 now. But the year he was traded here he was on an 82 game pace to have 182 hits the 30 games with the leafs? a pace of 114. It would seem that a gameplan with the leafs must involve being told less hitting, that is 68 hits less over a season on pace for 114. If he played 82 with the leafs last year and had 114 hits and this year keeps up his 120 pace they are easily his lowest hit total seasons in the NHL over a full season, 162 was his lowest in LA!.

Before anyone decides that is on Dubas, dont be silly there is zero chance Dubas a GM could tell a player what they can and cant do on the ice. Babcock's gameplan involves stick checking its got to be as simple as that. So all this "softest team ever" threads must take that into account no?

Unless as i said earlier Muzzin just hit a wall and now cant hit anymore, that is of course possible if a little unlikely due to half season at LA and TO being so different last season.

Thats an interesting stat, but there is no way on earth Babcock doesnt want guys hitting, that is the exact opposite of what he expects out of players. He loves the Hyman's etc and always preaches playing heavy, so I can't see this being the case. Maybe Dubas gives guys the stink eye if they are being too physical, that seems more plausible.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

id prefer dubas double down on his philosophy and hire keefe (if keefe is the right man) than go hire some vet coach becasue he is worried about his job security. Dubas doesnt strike me as someone who will deviate their plan to save their career, feels more like he is so sure in his plan he'd easily take keefe as NHL coach

That’s a big if for a man with that little experience. Maybe he’s the guy, maybe not, hard to know either way without ever having seen him coach in the NHL.

A happy medium if Babs is fired say mid-January would be to name Keefe interim coach, with the plan being to hire the actual coach in the summer. That way Keefe has several months to audition and if he can right the ship and send them deep into the playoffs he will have won the job, and made himself the obvious choice. If not, Dubas hasn’t tipped his hand yet and can make his pick in the summer after having analyzed Keefe’s performance in the NHL.

That’s how I’d do it if I were the Leafs GM this year.

 

[Teeder Keon]

Chara says Muzzin has 12 more years.

Might as well bring back Carl Brewer for his 3 rd stint with the leafs

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ughhh... this is why context is important.

I was responding to the statement "every player that comes to Toronto seem to be a shadow of their former selves except for Tavares".

This is what you said:

Babcock is doing a good job getting the most out of our players.

No amount of "context" can possibly justify responding to a post that makes a ridiculous all-encompassing statement by making a similar statement yourself. You went even further than that, listing about a 3rd of our team that was playing well as proof when a 1 out of 3 success rate is in fact, abysmal and not even close to proof of Babcock doing "a good job".

 

[MyBudJT]

This is what you said:

Babcock is doing a good job getting the most out of our players.

No amount of "context" can possibly justify responding to a post that makes a ridiculous all-encompassing statement by making a similar statement yourself. You went even further than that, listing about a 3rd of our team that was playing well as proof when a 1 out of 3 success rate is in fact, abysmal and not even close to proof of Babcock doing "a good job".

What is ridiculous about that statement?

Again, context is important, as is good reading comprehension.

My list was examples to refute the idea that players fall off the map when they come to Toronto. It wasn't a complete list, and it wasn't intended to be used to support the statement that Babcock is doing a good job getting production from our guys....

I didn't say he's doing a great, or phenomenal job... but he's done well, and we are in good hands with him as our coach.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What is ridiculous about that statement?

Again, context is important, as is good reading comprehension.

My list was examples to refute the idea that players fall off the map when they come to Toronto. It wasn't a complete list, and it wasn't intended to be used to support the statement that Babcock is doing a good job getting production from our guys....

I didn't say he's doing a great, or phenomenal job... but he's done well, and we are in good hands with him as our coach.

What's ridiculous about this statement you ask?

Babcock is doing a good job getting the most out of our players

Simple - I see a group of players that is performing well below what they're capable of, and they have been doing so for about 10 months now. The idea that Babcock is doing a good job getting the most out of these players is to me ... ridiculous.

 

[MyBudJT]

What's ridiculous about this statement you ask?

Babcock is doing a good job getting the most out of our players

Simple - I see a group of players that is performing well below what they're capable of, and they have been doing so for about 10 months now. The idea that Babcock is doing a good job getting the most out of these players is to me ... ridiculous.

Sorry, I'll elect to go off of a sample size of > 15 games when judging his performance.

There a many seasons of Babcock doing a great job getting the most out of his guys... I'm sure our season will turn around, we're already trending in the right direction the last few games....

Edit: By the way, none of my posts in this discussion was referring to strictly this season...

 

[Gary Nylund]

Might as well bring back Carl Brewer for his 3 rd stint with the leafs

Man, we did live through some "interesting" times didn't we.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What's ridiculous about this statement you ask?

Babcock is doing a good job getting the most out of our players

Simple - I see a group of players that is performing well below what they're capable of, and they have been doing so for about 10 months now. The idea that Babcock is doing a good job getting the most out of these players is to me ... ridiculous.

Sorry, I'll elect to go off of a sample size of > 15 games when judging his performance.

There a many seasons of Babcock doing a great job getting the most out of his guys... I'm sure our season will turn around, we're already trending in the right direction the last few games....

No apology necessary but just how many games do you think we've played in the last 10 months?

You mentioned reading comprehension in an earlier response to me. Sorry but I can't help but point this out, I'm sure you're capable of better.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

id prefer dubas double down on his philosophy and hire keefe (if keefe is the right man) than go hire some vet coach becasue he is worried about his job security. Dubas doesnt strike me as someone who will deviate their plan to save their career, feels more like he is so sure in his plan he'd easily take keefe as NHL coach

Yeah he is 40 million$ for 4 players sure.
Hope he fixes this Babs thing sooner than later.

We arent beating Boston as it sits right now.

 

[MyBudJT]

No apology necessary but just how many games do you think we've played in the last 10 months?

You mentioned reading comprehension in an earlier response to me. Sorry but I can't help but point this out, I'm sure you're capable of better.

You keep going off on tangents, man.

Again, I've only been talking about Babcock's of having players play well under him. I'll remind you, the statement I've been debating has been "bottom line is every player that comes to Toronto seem to be a shadow of their former selves".

I disproved this.

I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT PLAYER PERFORMANCE UNDER BABCOCK, NOT TEAM PERFORMANCE. (See, I can bold things and enlarge font too)

If you want to look at team performance in the last 10 months, we are 24-9-8 when Andersen has started. Clearly back-up goal-tending has been our largest issue... but of course people like you will ignore that and claim that everything bad comes from the coach. Actually, we are 115-55-28 with Andersen starting since he came to Toronto. Not too shabby, eh?

 

[Teeder Keon]

Man, we did live through some "interesting" times didn't we.

Those were the best of times and the worst of times ...
I’ve said this before
I couldn’t stand Ballard and the damage he inflicted on this great franchise and legacy of a team laid down by Mr . Conn Smythe .
Thankfully we are finally out from under that crap .
Bag over the head of Neilson desire
Firing him then hiring him
Keon mistreatment
Trading Macdonald
Sittler treatment
Brewer
Re hiring of Imlach
Hiring of ridiculous managers and coaches
Cheapness
Circus shit show all the time

On and on and on

other than a few laughable times with him it was a disaster