Snow/Wang Must Go!

[Dutch Frost]

Buffalo smartened up and fired both coach and GM. This is how you own a team!!

 

[blitzkriegs]

It was a 20 year old draft for everyone though. There were 21 picks before Brian Trottier (including Gillies at #4), there were 14 players selected before Bossy. Potvin was a 1st overall. Smith was a trade. Goring was a trade. Torrey had incredible success with the draft, unprecedented.

For all the "Snow's drafted well" - what does it matter if the team doesn't win? And this is coming from someone who LIKES Snow's drafting, I think Bailey was a great pick, I loved the trading down move at the time and since. I think Hamonic was a brilliant pick. But if Snow's some draft savant, why select Ness and Trivino ahead of Hamonic?

But I agree with your post and the "patience" approach. And many Isles fans on this board are flat out of patience - we want to see a better product, fast. And some thought it was NOW. This year. And it's not.

I still like the team and most of the players. This is a fun team to watch. When they are on their game, they can beat anyone. They are just so incredibly inconsistent!



You made your point and everyone agrees, Snow does some things really well:
- sign key guys to great long term contracts
- uses the waiver wire to bring in decent players (but some of those are Schremp, Tambellini, Boyes)
- has brought on some hidden gems like Parenteau and Moulson (and some of those are Rolston, Reasoner, Pandolfo, Carkner, Eaton, Sim)
- "convinced" Nabokov and Visnovsky to play for the Islanders. (some may argue he should have convinced someone else to play goal this year)

You can't simply isolate the POSITIVE moves that Snow's made, ignoring the negative ones.

And you can't point to Wang because since Snow's taken over, what has Wang really influenced that we know of? Snow spends just as much money as they do in Colorado or Phoenix - yet those franchises are far better on the ice. Maybe Snow should have drafted Ryan O'Rielly instead of trading all those picks for Calvin deHaan? Maybe he should have traded Parenteau at the deadline instead of letting him walk for nothing.

Maybe Snow should not have picked up Parenteau or Moulson, rather, he should have brought Chichura, Vermette, Michalek and Mike Smith? Maybe then, the Islanders would have been as good as Phoenix.

Snow is not a successful GM because the team isn't successful. It's that simple.

To be more clear. SIMILAR teams, with similar budgets, draft choices, have been more successful, in a shorter timeframe, than the Islanders. Even teams without Tavares.

You cannot evaluate the positive in isolation, then bring up excuses. That's "apologist speak".

If you're wife was a great cook, had a hot body, but cheated on you and stole money for crack, would you say she's a good wife? You could probably do worse, no?

It's okay to expect more.

Defending Snow the way some do is simply disingenuous.

It's okay to acknowledge the good things he's done, to recognize the circumstances that may impact decisions, but to jump to "success" is just not true. I'm a Snow supporter, for the most part, but there's a way to go yet.

I prefer to not interject myself into this argument, but the Isles spending (CASH) on an annual basis is not the same as PHO and COL. Sorry, very different.

Moreover, while one can give props to COL right now they failed to make the playoffs last season and were a lottery pick. EDM got out of gate last year and everyone thought they were SC Champs, then they busted. It's all relative until all 82 games are played.

PHO competes hard and well, but also has a very tight system with the right players in it. However, they have and do spend way more than the Isles. They are the Devils of this era, less boring though.

 

[periferal]

Only one team can win the Cup each year and each year a handful of teams can win it. Did Boston have a bad season last year because they didn't win it?

Believe me...My only goal for the Islanders is to take all steps necessary to win a Stanley Cup. However sometimes you do everything right and the puck doesn't bounce your way.

Here's a list of all current GM's who have won a Stanley Cup with their current team:

Lou Lamorillo
Peter Chiarelli
Jim Rutherford
Ken Holland
Ray Shero
Dean Lombardi
Stan Bowman

That's seven guys. Does that mean that all other GM's aren't worthy of their positions? Some are and some aren't. For me it comes down to one thing...

It's not where you are, but what direction you're heading.

The Islanders took a step forward over the past year towards the Stanley Cup, but if they continue on this path with they eventually be a Cup contender? Hard to say, but I am very skeptical of that. Bill Wirtz had to unfortunately die and let his son Rocky run the team before the Blackhawks could win the Cup.

Point is...There's more to winning a Cup than just having a GM. Your owner has to not only give full support to your staff, but also make smart decisions and I think we can all agree wang doesn't do either.

At the end of the day, we have a decent cruise ship, but our captain cannot be trusted so we may hit the rocks anytime. We need a new captain...

 

[A Pointed Stick]

And you can't point to Wang because since Snow's taken over, what has Wang really influenced that we know of? Snow spends just as much money as they do in Colorado or Phoenix - yet those franchises are far better on the ice.

You likely know I am positive but not bananas about Snow, and agree with much of what you write, but not the above. I can dig the quote out from last year but Wang already copped to a slim budget restriction. The rather bad coach is just one symptom of this, but it certainly doesn't help the on ice product or the development of the kids. I would hazard that you have said as much but may be confusing you with several others. It is also worth noting that Ricky's contract was signed by Wang after Snow took over. I give Snow credit for making that the last of the Crazy-Eddie level insane contracts.

But something that does blow is in the strange twists and themes that happen during our drafts. Waterloo, the all defensemen draft, the draft where we traded down into far lower rounds for multiple throw away picks.... Just bizarre. If I didn't know any better I would say those things reek of the largess a know-nothing owner would be guilty of if he dared to get involved on draft day.

I am probably wrong, but the odor of complete stupidity hangs on some of those moves. I don't measure Snow at that level, or Klatt, or even Jankowski.

 

[Islesfans1978*]

Moulson is a solid player, nobody is saying he isn't. But you can't just expect Vanek to come in and have INSTANT connection with JT. Personally I think Vanek plays a much better all around game as well as being more creative than Moulson.

That no look pass to JT against Ottawa just shows the potential these two have. All I'm trying to say is we HAVE to give them 10-15 game together.

Also do you notice how the first line isn't getting trapped in the defensive zone as much? I don't think that's a coincidence.

Nothing is guaranteeing he will either, I am just keeping score and as of right now, Moulson is better.

 

[Islesfans1978*]

Buffalo smartened up and fired both coach and GM. This is how you own a team!!

It was a long time coming.

 

[Le Grec]

Only one team can win the Cup each year and each year a handful of teams can win it. Did Boston have a bad season last year because they didn't win it?

Believe me...My only goal for the Islanders is to take all steps necessary to win a Stanley Cup. However sometimes you do everything right and the puck doesn't bounce your way.

Here's a list of all current GM's who have won a Stanley Cup with their current team:

Lou Lamorillo
Peter Chiarelli
Jim Rutherford
Ken Holland
Ray Shero
Dean Lombardi
Stan Bowman

That's seven guys. Does that mean that all other GM's aren't worthy of their positions? Some are and some aren't. For me it comes down to one thing...

It's not where you are, but what direction you're heading.

The Islanders took a step forward over the past year towards the Stanley Cup, but if they continue on this path with they eventually be a Cup contender? Hard to say, but I am very skeptical of that. Bill Wirtz had to unfortunately die and let his son Rocky run the team before the Blackhawks could win the Cup.

Point is...There's more to winning a Cup than just having a GM. Your owner has to not only give full support to your staff, but also make smart decisions and I think we can all agree wang doesn't do either.

At the end of the day, we have a decent cruise ship, but our captain cannot be trusted so we may hit the rocks anytime. We need a new captain...

And of those 7 GM's, you can say 3-4 of them inherited a good team.

As for ownership. just look at the successful teams of any professional sport, they all have solid ownership.
Now look at the losing franchises, like the Isles.

Until Wang sells, nothing changes.

But that doesn't mean they can't win...just means it's going to be real tough.

 

[PK Cronin]

Nothing is guaranteeing he will either, I am just keeping score and as of right now, Moulson is better.

Except for the fact that he just isn't, no matter how much you try to convince yourself or others of that.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Let's start with the first part in bold. Up until last year, this team had no future. It has no money, Wand signed D.P. (which was a huge negative!!!)...but you're right, compared to the past, Wang has laid low.
That doesn't mean he isn't the biggest factor going against this team

I'm glad you brought up Phoenix. There GM was considered one of the worst in Isles history, but look at him now. Imagine how ****ed up the Isles are when even Phoenix gave Maloney a better chance to succeed. And it's not about money, it's about culture.

Look at Lafontaine...
considered one of the nicest guys in all sport...
after a month of dealing with Wang, HE GOT THE **** OUT!!!

Your "wife" analogy is really pointless, as one is personal, and the other business.

And lastly, i'm not calling Snow a success. I'm calling him an Islander success. If he was running the Rangers, then i would be all over him about the teams record.
But this is the Isles.

There was a time when Maloney & Regier were running this team. And their records were as bad as Snow's. I guess ownership didn't have a role, and it was a matter of those 2 being bad at their job...

I think that Maloney always got a bad wrap. and Milbury (to a smaller extent) did as well. Once ownership was stable under Milbury-he iced decent teams-not great-but all of a sudden his dumb trades (mainly done to dump salary from past owners) disappeared, and he hired decent coaches as well. Maloney never got that opportunity unfortunately.

Now don't get me wrong: Milbury was an awful GM under the mess that was the Isles ownership at the time. BUT it is funny how people will defend Snow citing ownership, yet don't do so for Milbury. Again from about the time that Wang bought the team Milbury iced decent teams.

What's my point? Put Snow in the GM seat back in the 90s and he fails just as hard as Milbury does.

 

[rikker]

Nothing is guaranteeing he will either, I am just keeping score and as of right now, Moulson is better.

i haven't watched Moulson since the trade, so i don't know. if Matt is hustling back, and hitting, then good for him and the Sabres. my question is, why didn't he do that here?

i think everyone was in agreement that lack of defensive game was maddening. and before it's mentioned for the hundredth time, yes he scored goals. loved him for that. a team with all Moulson's and M.A. Bergeron's will never win the cup, though.

reeks of the same stench as the NN scenario. conflict, drama, player pouting, etc...

and anyone who hasn't seen players miraculously improve, in their UFA year, has not been watching. his wallet is bigger than his heart, maybe?

a dozen games is very insignificant in the long run. or, we could all say that Steen is the 3rd best player in hockey, right?

 

[Hip Of Rick*]

anyone that thinks snow has done a bad job hasn't been following the islanders in depth

I have been following the Islanders in depth for about 15 years. I was too young to appreciate them back in 1993. I have never seen this team win a playoff series in a league that over 50% of the teams make the playoffs. Think about that, we are beating mathematics with how bad we are.

Ill repeat for kool-aid Snow defenders on here 3 PLAYOFF WINS IN 7 YEARS. There is no defending that, this is PROFESSIONAL sports. The only thing that matters is results. Snow has produced less than any other GM in the NHL during the past 7 years.

Wang, the arena, Milbury, the hot dog vendor, they are all excuses that are made for losers. Snow is a loser of a GM. We can point out individual moves made in 7 years that were good and bad all day and night at the end of the day the team has sucked.

 

[fishstick]

Nothing is guaranteeing he will either, I am just keeping score and as of right now, Moulson is better.

We all understood that you're not happy with this trade, no need to bring it up in every thread
Everyone keeps saying that we need more time to evalute. But if you're so keen on using stats after a couple of games: Vanek had more shots in fewer games (so we can assume his points will go up as soon he'll reach his usual S%) and is a +3 instead of a -1 (better defensively, better ES player?)

I'm sure there's enough to criticize about Snow apart from that.

I was happy with some of his waiver pickups (Grabs, Nabby, Hickey), the patience he had with Vis and the affordable contracts to which he signed the core up. This will give us enough cap space in the near future. Of course I'm not satisfied with the years of losing and tanking. Not sure how much was related to legacy, low budget and players not wanting to come here.
About the draft picks: some are fine, some are still in the queue and some definitely didn't turn out for us (Nino).

 

[Islesfans1978*]

Except for the fact that he just isn't, no matter how much you try to convince yourself or others of that.

He is "right now," which is what I said.

He leads in stats and if you have watched the games, work ethic, making things happen and being a key contributor.

The only thing Vanek has is the obvious talent.

 

[stranger34]

Nothing is guaranteeing he will either, I am just keeping score and as of right now, Moulson is better.

If you look just at the back of the hockey card then Matty has been just as good, if not better, for a few years.

 

[Islesfans1978*]

i haven't watched Moulson since the trade, so i don't know. if Matt is hustling back, and hitting, then good for him and the Sabres. my question is, why didn't he do that here?

i think everyone was in agreement that lack of defensive game was maddening. and before it's mentioned for the hundredth time, yes he scored goals. loved him for that. a team with all Moulson's and M.A. Bergeron's will never win the cup, though.

reeks of the same stench as the NN scenario. conflict, drama, player pouting, etc...

and anyone who hasn't seen players miraculously improve, in their UFA year, has not been watching. his wallet is bigger than his heart, maybe?

a dozen games is very insignificant in the long run. or, we could all say that Steen is the 3rd best player in hockey, right?

You lost me, since when did Moulson ever not bust his butt while he was here? That is his M.O.

But the Isles aren't a team of all Moulson's and Bergeron's, I understand the cog that Moulson was and how he fits into the team, but this trade did not need to happen in general. That is what I have said now about three times now.

I agree, a dozen games is very insignificant, just like 11 games was very insignificant to pull a trade like this when the team wasn't in dire need.

I would hope you are talking about Vanek with the wallet and heart comment, because that definitely doesn't apply to Moulson.

 

[beach]

I think that Maloney always got a bad wrap.

Uhh, WHAT?????????????

 

[And You Feel Shame]

I think that Maloney always got a bad wrap. and Milbury (to a smaller extent) did as well. Once ownership was stable under Milbury-he iced decent teams-not great-but all of a sudden his dumb trades (mainly done to dump salary from past owners) disappeared, and he hired decent coaches as well. Maloney never got that opportunity unfortunately.

Now don't get me wrong: Milbury was an awful GM under the mess that was the Isles ownership at the time. BUT it is funny how people will defend Snow citing ownership, yet don't do so for Milbury. Again from about the time that Wang bought the team Milbury iced decent teams.

What's my point? Put Snow in the GM seat back in the 90s and he fails just as hard as Milbury does.

This is so backwards. Maloney was outright awful - there's no bad rap. In fact he gets a pass in most Islanders fans eyes because they have the more recent memories of Milbury.

But Milbury is where you are even more incorrect. Milbury under budget constraints and horrible ownership did his best work, arguably very good work. It was in the bad ownership era that he made some very solid trades (Clark and Schneider for Jonsson and the pick used for Luongo in '96; Lacouture for Czerkawski in '97 - even the Palffy trade wasn't horrific until Jokinen demanded a trade).

Then 2000 rolls around and things go bad in a hurry. 2000 also happens to be when Wang became (part) owner of the team, though this is coincidental - but it is useful for the perspective of the timeline. Wang (and Kumar) early on was willing to spend on salary, and Milbury made some really really really unfortunate decisions on how to use this bigger budget. He also let his ego dictate transactions.

 

[Islesfans1978*]

We all understood that you're not happy with this trade, no need to bring it up in every thread
Everyone keeps saying that we need more time to evalute. But if you're so keen on using stats after a couple of games: Vanek had more shots in fewer games (so we can assume his points will go up as soon he'll reach his usual S%) and is a +3 instead of a -1 (better defensively, better ES player?)

I'm sure there's enough to criticize about Snow apart from that.

I was happy with some of his waiver pickups (Grabs, Nabby, Hickey), the patience he had with Vis and the affordable contracts to which he signed the core up. This will give us enough cap space in the near future. Of course I'm not satisfied with the years of losing and tanking. Not sure how much was related to legacy, low budget and players not wanting to come here.
About the draft picks: some are fine, some are still in the queue and some definitely didn't turn out for us (Nino).

I didn't bring it up on every thread, I added into the discussion that was already on the topic, I was just a bit more thorough maybe.

For the fourth time, I have already mentioned stats aren't the only thing I based my views on, I actually watched the games. But even so, Moulson is out performing him, there is no denying that, from top to bottom, and it isn't by the slightest of margins, they are nice leads that he has continued to build on the second he put on a Sabres sweater. The lead might even have been greater than it's had HC not benched him for more than half a period for no good reason, which probably played into him getting canned.

We simply didn't need this trade.

 

[And You Feel Shame]

I didn't bring it up on every thread, I added into the discussion that was already on the topic, I was just a bit more thorough maybe.

For the fourth time, I have already mentioned stats aren't the only thing I based my views on, I actually watched the games. But even so, Moulson is out performing him, there is no denying that, from top to bottom, and it isn't by the slightest of margins, they are nice leads that he has continued to build on the second he put on a Sabres sweater. The lead might even have been greater than it's had HC not benched him for more than half a period for no good reason, which probably played into him getting canned.

We simply didn't need this trade.

We may not have needed it, but it doesn't make it bad. I prefer not to jump to judging a trade after 6-7 games, but if you're going to ficus on statistics to make your point then let's also point out that Moulson is -1 over his time in BUF while Vanek is +3. Kind of points to what so many are saying about the other aspects of his game. Still it way too early to really try to analyze, isn't it?

 

[disles1]

I didn't bring it up on every thread, I added into the discussion that was already on the topic, I was just a bit more thorough maybe.

For the fourth time, I have already mentioned stats aren't the only thing I based my views on, I actually watched the games. But even so, Moulson is out performing him, there is no denying that, from top to bottom, and it isn't by the slightest of margins, they are nice leads that he has continued to build on the second he put on a Sabres sweater. The lead might even have been greater than it's had HC not benched him for more than half a period for no good reason, which probably played into him getting canned.

We simply didn't need this trade.

Whatever dude. Vanek is a better player than Moulson. Its that simple. 90% of the Islander fan base wanted a top line winger for JT for years and Garth went out and got one. Moulson is good at one thing , working in front of the net to bang in goals. He sucks at everything else....

Did we need to improve in goal and on defense more than getting a top line winger? Yes. But Vanek is better than Moulson.

 

[ScaredStreit]

This is so backwards. Maloney was outright awful - there's no bad rap. In fact he gets a pass in most Islanders fans eyes because they have the more recent memories of Milbury.

But Milbury is where you are even more incorrect. Milbury under budget constraints and horrible ownership did his best work, arguably very good work. It was in the bad ownership era that he made some very solid trades (Clark and Schneider for Jonsson and the pick used for Luongo in '96; Lacouture for Czerkawski in '97 - even the Palffy trade wasn't horrific until Jokinen demanded a trade).

Then 2000 rolls around and things go bad in a hurry. 2000 also happens to be when Wang became (part) owner of the team, though this is coincidental - but it is useful for the perspective of the timeline. Wang (and Kumar) early on was willing to spend on salary, and Milbury made some really really really unfortunate decisions on how to use this bigger budget. He also let his ego dictate transactions.

After Wang came on board with Milbury we were a playoff team. Granted a 1 round team-but a playoff team nonetheless. He brought in Yashin (who was a Hart trophy finalist), Peca, Aucoin, Hamrlik, Osgood, etc. shortly after. The team as a WHOLE (not an individual level) was MUCH better with MM in charge under Wang-than before. You're mentioning his good/decent trades before Wang...but you're omitting the bad (to make Wang look worse).

Pre-Wang MM was essentially forced to trade any veteran making money (Palffy), or any young star player who was going to make some money--so he had to trade them before (ever notice none of the young decent players ever got moved?).

I'm not suggesting that MM was a good GM-and I think you're missing my main point in all of this, which is:


If you blame Milbury and Maloney (who btw has done a great job in Phoenix) for failures of the Islanders-but don't blame Snow for the same exact failures (not winning a playoff series while being GM for SEVEN years).....there's something wrong with that logic.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Whatever dude. Vanek is a better player than Moulson. Its that simple. 90% of the Islander fan base wanted a top line winger for JT for years and Garth went out and got one. Moulson is good at one thing , working in front of the net to bang in goals. He sucks at everything else....

Did we need to improve in goal and on defense more than getting a top line winger? Yes. But Vanek is better than Moulson.

You're looking at the 1 step forward-I'm looking at the 2 steps back.

 

[Wedregast]

After Wang came on board with Milbury we were a playoff team. Granted a 1 round team-but a playoff team nonetheless. He brought in Yashin (who was a Hart trophy finalist), Peca, Aucoin, Hamrlik, Osgood, etc. shortly after. The team as a WHOLE (not an individual level) was MUCH better with MM in charge under Wang-than before. You're mentioning his good/decent trades before Wang...but you're omitting the bad (to make Wang look worse).

Pre-Wang MM was essentially forced to trade any veteran making money (Palffy), or any young star player who was going to make some money--so he had to trade them before (ever notice none of the young decent players ever got moved?).

I'm not suggesting that MM was a good GM-and I think you're missing my main point in all of this, which is:


If you blame Milbury and Maloney (who btw has done a great job in Phoenix) for failures of the Islanders-but don't blame Snow for the same exact failures (not winning a playoff series while being GM for SEVEN years).....there's something wrong with that logic.

Was it Wang tightly controlling Milbury that made him trade away Luongo, a #1 Draft Pick (Jason Spezza -or- Heatly), and Chara? Picking DiPietro with the #1 draft pick? Not to mention wasting any assets to trade for Niiniimaa?

Did Wang have a tight grip on the moves made back with Milbury, or did it not really start until Smith became GM, and then was kicked to the curb cause he wanted to act like a GM?

As far as I know, and maybe you know something differently. When the team was making playoffs under Milbury, he left it alone. Once Milbury left he directly involved himself in the operations. So your entire argument is false.

 

[Wedregast]

...I also forgot trading Chris Osgood for Justin Papineau.

 

[redbull]

...I also forgot trading Chris Osgood for Justin Papineau.

Sterling never knew how to use Papineau. He couldn't develop young players, like Papineau, Weinhandl, Mapletoft, Bergenheim.

Fun fact of the day:

Career Stats in the NHL
GP-G-A-PTS
Justin Papineau 81-11-8-19
Nino Niederreiter 83-5-8-13



It's COACHING that's clearly the problem.