Snow/Wang Must Go!

[Quicklime]

I still think Wang needs to go first. Snow can do a better job with a better allowance and other resources.

That's the crux of it. Granted, it likely will take a full house-clearing to properly turn the page, but as much as a new GM is a welcome change that would allow us to all move on, the major problems with this franchise begin and end with what ownership is willing to invest. I can't call Snow a total idiot for not being able to keep up with other GM's and their "Bugatti Veyron" payrolls when Wang only chips in far enough to drive a POS '84 Buick Regal with 4 bald tires off of a used car lot.

 

[The Underboss]

I think we all agree that there is plenty of blame to go around for both Snow & Wang.

 

[MaryChristine*]

That's the crux of it. Granted, it likely will take a full house-clearing to properly turn the page, but as much as a new GM is a welcome change that would allow us to all move on, the major problems with this franchise begin and end with what ownership is willing to invest. I can't call Snow a total idiot for not being able to keep up with other GM's and their "Bugatti Veyron" payrolls when Wang only chips in far enough to drive a POS '84 Buick Regal with 4 bald tires off of a used car lot.

I completely agree with that...
What you can call Snow an idiot for is keeping Cappy and trading Nino for less than he is worth and not getting a goalie in the off season..etc.
For the record...By no means, am I a supporter of Wang... I don't blame Snow for everything, it's just that I see BOTH of them are guilty and it bothers me when people act like Snow is so innocent. He is Not... In my perfect world, i wake up tomorrow morning to tweets that Wang has sold the team and Snow has given his resignation.

 

[Quicklime]

I completely agree with that...
What you can call Snow an idiot for is keeping Cappy and trading Nino for less than he is worth and not getting a goalie in the off season..etc.
For the record...By no means, am I a supporter of Wang... I don't blame Snow for everything, it's just that I see BOTH of them are guilty and it bothers me when people act like Snow is so innocent. He is Not... In my perfect world, i wake up tomorrow morning to tweets that Wang has sold the team and Snow has given his resignation.

Hey, I'd be very pleased with that perfect world, as we could at least put the mismanagement era behind us. I'd like to emphasise that the difference in opinion isn't so much wanting Snow to stay as much as it is that the aforementioned things you and I both see as flaws look a little more financially motivated to me, but that's just a difference in opinion.

I want them both gone too, but even if Snow is no more than insulation from allowing Wang to publicly control hockey operations as he has been known to in the past, that insulation is a good thing. Since Wang seems to keep a staff of yes-men, shooting the messenger now would remove a known quantity that doesn't totally shoot us in the foot at the draft table. As sick as I am to have to turn my attention to the draft again, we'll need a good showing in that area since that will eventually be the cache of players that eventually forms the backbone of a stronger franchise, when it's finally invested in properly - from having a true President Of Hockey Operations, through the front bench, to getting a better broadcast than Hofstra University, all the way down.

Imagine the quality of this roster when another $30M is available to the right management team, and they add 3 or 4 vets to the ticked off high-character players coming into their own and plays them a little like General Patton. They have a 4 year window to do this and be a legitimate deep threat. Hopefully the changeover happens soon enough to take advantage of it.

 

[MaryChristine*]

hey, i'd be very pleased with that perfect world, as we could at least put the mismanagement era behind us. I'd like to emphasise that the difference in opinion isn't so much wanting snow to stay as much as it is that the aforementioned things you and i both see as flaws look a little more financially motivated to me, but that's just a difference in opinion.

I want them both gone too, but even if snow is no more than insulation from allowing wang to publicly control hockey operations as he has been known to in the past, that insulation is a good thing. Since wang seems to keep a staff of yes-men, shooting the messenger now would remove a known quantity that doesn't totally shoot us in the foot at the draft table. As sick as i am to have to turn my attention to the draft again, we'll need a good showing in that area since that will eventually be the cache of players that eventually forms the backbone of a stronger franchise, when it's finally invested in properly - from having a true president of hockey operations, through the front bench, to getting a better broadcast than hofstra university, all the way down.

Imagine the quality of this roster when another $30m is available to the right management team, and they add 3 or 4 vets to the ticked off high-character players coming into their own and plays them a little like general patton. They have a 4 year window to do this and be a legitimate deep threat. Hopefully the changeover happens soon enough to take advantage of it.

. .

 

[Quicklime]

That's what good debates do - reveal a common view from two sides, despite slightly differing opinions.

At the end of the day, all I want is a strong Islanders team and a united Islander Country, and I don't want to have to "guess" where they're going to be in the standings, the magnitude of the Yearly November Slump, whether anyone on the staff (other than Thompson, Weight or Snow, in that order) would ever be up for consideration for the same job they have here with another franchise, et cetera. We need new blood. At least the drafting supposedly has some octane, though hopefully what we're seeking is an example of how not all young goalies immediately "get it" and the 'Stygian Triplets' aren't all duds. Hopefully Nilsson rebounds from his random freak illness, Poulin gets his head and his performance straight and/or Koskinen can be lured back over and actually trends like fellow-giant-goalie Ben Bishop. The D is coming and the offense as well, though less - it can be argued that they should have already given up on Poulin, but I wouldn't want to prematurely give up on another French-Canadian goalie. It didn't work so well the last time, either.

My perfect scenario would be new owner first, president of operations hired second, interim titles handed to all current personnel third, and then let whatever true, experienced hockey mind that gets to play god as president assess the situation and hire/fire whoever they see fit. I could imagine one, maybe even two of the three names above surviving such an event through accepting reduced roles as much as I could easily imagine the sky raining pink slips. Capuano would get the chop without a word and anyone else would have 45-90 seconds to convince me not to open the trap door they'd be standing on, if I were lucky enough to be in that position.

 

[MattMartin]

Did anyone actually look at the grand total of salaries we added in the offseason? The biggest additions of ours have always been in retaining our own.

We didn't even add salary to this team when we took on Vanek. Edit - See below.

You could **** on Snow for not trading for Bernier or Schneider. It was a mistake not to do so as far as I'm concerned. Other than that, he's done a relatively good job at retaining our own players. He's done a relatively good job at drafting. He's done a relatively good job at building a team with a bargain payroll.

At the end of the day, this team is in a good position the second we're willing to spend to fill a couple holes in the lineup. Even if we only ever retain our own, we'll still be a good team when certain kids make it to this level. Good, not great like we should be for all of the losses we've had to endure. I can't stress that enough.

Our prospect pool is almost too good to fail on defense (and that's where we need the most help.) We have a handful of sizable forwards and a couple that can potentially produce. It should be just enough. We'll be a good team; we've lost enough to earn that much. Without adding salary at any point though, we'll never be great.

When Wang lets Snow get an average payroll, then I'll judge Snow more harshly. That bolded part above should pretty much tell you what he's dealing with though.

Edit - Thought it was originally $2.5 million retained, but it was less. So we did add some, but after we trade him - well, you know the deal.

,
Mitch

SNOW LOVER!!!! J/K

Excellent post, at least a few of us get it...NO money, No Honey!

 

[Hip Of Rick*]

That's what good debates do - reveal a common view from two sides, despite slightly differing opinions.

At the end of the day, all I want is a strong Islanders team and a united Islander Country, and I don't want to have to "guess" where they're going to be in the standings, the magnitude of the Yearly November Slump, whether anyone on the staff (other than Thompson, Weight or Snow, in that order) would ever be up for consideration for the same job they have here with another franchise, et cetera. We need new blood. At least the drafting supposedly has some octane, though hopefully what we're seeking is an example of how not all young goalies immediately "get it" and the 'Stygian Triplets' aren't all duds. Hopefully Nilsson rebounds from his random freak illness, Poulin gets his head and his performance straight and/or Koskinen can be lured back over and actually trends like fellow-giant-goalie Ben Bishop. The D is coming and the offense as well, though less - it can be argued that they should have already given up on Poulin, but I wouldn't want to prematurely give up on another French-Canadian goalie. It didn't work so well the last time, either.

My perfect scenario would be new owner first, president of operations hired second, interim titles handed to all current personnel third, and then let whatever true, experienced hockey mind that gets to play god as president assess the situation and hire/fire whoever they see fit. I could imagine one, maybe even two of the three names above surviving such an event through accepting reduced roles as much as I could easily imagine the sky raining pink slips. Capuano would get the chop without a word and anyone else would have 45-90 seconds to convince me not to open the trap door they'd be standing on, if I were lucky enough to be in that position.

Great post

 

[Dutch Frost]

That's what good debates do - reveal a common view from two sides, despite slightly differing opinions.

At the end of the day, all I want is a strong Islanders team and a united Islander Country, and I don't want to have to "guess" where they're going to be in the standings, the magnitude of the Yearly November Slump, whether anyone on the staff (other than Thompson, Weight or Snow, in that order) would ever be up for consideration for the same job they have here with another franchise, et cetera. We need new blood. At least the drafting supposedly has some octane, though hopefully what we're seeking is an example of how not all young goalies immediately "get it" and the 'Stygian Triplets' aren't all duds. Hopefully Nilsson rebounds from his random freak illness, Poulin gets his head and his performance straight and/or Koskinen can be lured back over and actually trends like fellow-giant-goalie Ben Bishop. The D is coming and the offense as well, though less - it can be argued that they should have already given up on Poulin, but I wouldn't want to prematurely give up on another French-Canadian goalie. It didn't work so well the last time, either.

My perfect scenario would be new owner first, president of operations hired second, interim titles handed to all current personnel third, and then let whatever true, experienced hockey mind that gets to play god as president assess the situation and hire/fire whoever they see fit. I could imagine one, maybe even two of the three names above surviving such an event through accepting reduced roles as much as I could easily imagine the sky raining pink slips. Capuano would get the chop without a word and anyone else would have 45-90 seconds to convince me not to open the trap door they'd be standing on, if I were lucky enough to be in that position.

As much as I want a new owner, I would also prefer for Wang to step back and just let a team president run the whole organization. Give him a respectable competitive budget and let him run the show. Give him a 3-5 yr deadline. I want a stanley cup! If you need more $$ along the way to rent a player then lets chat.

No other owner in any professional sport would put up with an 8 yr rebuild. NONE!!!

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

No other owner in any professional sport would put up with an 8 yr rebuild. NONE!!!

He has no interest in winning anything, as he lost Boardwalk and Park Place. There is no longer an incentive for Wang to give a damn.

 

[mitchy22]

Are we even sure that Snow can fire Capuano? Would Snow be allowed to fire Doug Weight? What about the conflict of having an "Assistant to the GM" that is also an "Assistant Coach"?

Is Capuano staying here a GM decision or a budgetary decision? We know we've cut Hockey Operations overall staff, so where does that aspect of it end? These are rhetorical questions, but does anyone really know the answers to them?

Just to be clear, if we ended up with a new owner who then cleaned out the entire front office, it's not like I don't think that would be a good idea. I also would hope that included fully funding the hockey team from top to bottom. No GM worth their salt is going to come into this situation and stay long if they're not given the proper tools to do the job.

Doesn't that seem the most likely reason why we've had a bunch of "NHL rookies" in the coach and GM positions?

Quite frankly, we can do better from top to bottom. I think Snow has done a good job in a ****** situation. Not great, not awesome, just good. However, is Snow's fear to overpay in salary or assets a symptom of the financial situation we're in? Is it not even a fear, but a mandate from above?

I also don't know the answers to those last questions. All I know is that we've gone for budget signings whenever possible across the board. We've tried shortcuts and tricks to try and build a roster. All of the signs point towards a tight budget over everything else. This doesn't exonerate Snow from not fixing a thing here and there that he could have, but you have got to be ******** me if you think we were allowed to sign two defenders this past offseason.

Look at the current payroll and its history. At least we're legitimately near the lower limit instead of far below it as we have been in the past. Mind you, that is almost exclusively through retaining our own players. Until we spend above the minimum, there is no reason to believe we're allowed to.

,
Mitch

 

[MaryChristine*]

As much as I am annoyed by some of Snow's decisions, I am definitely 100% rooting for him in this trade. I hope his negotiating skills are better than I imagine. He has a real shot a little redemption here.

 

[MaryChristine*]

Are we even sure that Snow can fire Capuano? Would Snow be allowed to fire Doug Weight? What about the conflict of having an "Assistant to the GM" that is also an "Assistant Coach"?

Is Capuano staying here a GM decision or a budgetary decision? We know we've cut Hockey Operations overall staff, so where does that aspect of it end? These are rhetorical questions, but does anyone really know the answers to them?

Just to be clear, if we ended up with a new owner who then cleaned out the entire front office, it's not like I don't think that would be a good idea. I also would hope that included fully funding the hockey team from top to bottom. No GM worth their salt is going to come into this situation and stay long if they're not given the proper tools to do the job.

Doesn't that seem the most likely reason why we've had a bunch of "NHL rookies" in the coach and GM positions?

Quite frankly, we can do better from top to bottom. I think Snow has done a good job in a ****** situation. Not great, not awesome, just good. However, is Snow's fear to overpay in salary or assets a symptom of the financial situation we're in? Is it not even a fear, but a mandate from above?

I also don't know the answers to those last questions. All I know is that we've gone for budget signings whenever possible across the board. We've tried shortcuts and tricks to try and build a roster. All of the signs point towards a tight budget over everything else. This doesn't exonerate Snow from not fixing a thing here and there that he could have, but you have got to be ******** me if you think we were allowed to sign two defenders this past offseason.

Look at the current payroll and its history. At least we're legitimately near the lower limit instead of far below it as we have been in the past. Mind you, that is almost exclusively through retaining our own players. Until we spend above the minimum, there is no reason to believe we're allowed to.

,
Mitch

Of course, Snow has to run it by Wang first, but Wang did not hand pick Cappy, Snow did and he can fire him too. Capuano is 100% Snow's guy. He doesn't want to fire him.
Even with the budget restrictions, Don't you think that there are better qualified AHL coaches? Cappy was hardly qualified to be an AHL coach let alone in the NHL. I'm taking a look at the overall situation... Snow and Cappy's relationship and history, the fact that there are better AHL coaches to be had at the same or slightly above $... Assuming of course that Cappy isn't making minimum wage. Wang is cheap, but he is not so cheap that you can't hire a legitimate AHL coach.

 

[Felix Unger]

He has no interest in winning anything, as he lost Boardwalk and Park Place. There is no longer an incentive for Wang to give a damn.

It's true, there wasn't. Does this change now? Does it change after next year? Those are the huge questions for all of us. Basically, I like your approach to thinking about it.

 

[Quicklime]

As much as I want a new owner, I would also prefer for Wang to step back and just let a team president run the whole organization. Give him a respectable competitive budget and let him run the show. Give him a 3-5 yr deadline. I want a stanley cup! If you need more $$ along the way to rent a player then lets chat.

No other owner in any professional sport would put up with an 8 yr rebuild. NONE!!!

While I understand where you're coming from, that is the problem - Wang basically IS team president, and I don't trust him to hire anyone and grant them much autonomy. I'm no psychologist, but people who show signs of megalomania like Wang don't often reverse direction and have a change of heart as they get older; the become more extreme.

Milbury was an eventual buddy; Snow is a yes man who again, doesn't shoot us in the foot at the only place where what he does depends on other teams minimally - the draft; I do not, under any circumstances expect Wang to hire anything more than an even weaker yes-man. We can easily guess that Snow is a yes-man too; just not a total dunce at the draft table. Pat LaFontaine and Neil Smith both backed down from that sort of nonsense, and Wang doesn't look like much of the cat to change his spots pushing eighty years old.

 

[Quicklime]

It's true, there wasn't. Does this change now? Does it change after next year? Those are the huge questions for all of us. Basically, I like your approach to thinking about it.

^ This, this, this.

Of course, Snow has to run it by Wang first, but Wang did not hand pick Cappy, Snow did and he can fire him too. Capuano is 100% Snow's guy. He doesn't want to fire him.
Even with the budget restrictions, Don't you think that there are better qualified AHL coaches? Cappy was hardly qualified to be an AHL coach let alone in the NHL. I'm taking a look at the overall situation... Snow and Cappy's relationship and history, the fact that there are better AHL coaches to be had at the same or slightly above $... Assuming of course that Cappy isn't making minimum wage. Wang is cheap, but he is not so cheap that you can't hire a legitimate AHL coach.

Though we've discovered our opinions aren't as contrasting as we initially thought, this can also be viewed as "how many coaches are willing to come to the Islanders to be paid what Wang is paying them," I think. Given Wang's history of being a cheap knob, it could actually even be that Capuano's salary is that much of a joke and didn't change by one cent when he ascended from Bridgeport to Long Island.

Not as if something as internal as this would leak to the press, but Capuano holding onto his job while Laviolette is twiddling his thumbs doesn't look motivated upon a "hockey decision" to me.

 

[Quicklime]

Great post

Again, thats what good debates do - reveal a common goal.

 

[Quicklime]

Are we even sure that Snow can fire Capuano? Would Snow be allowed to fire Doug Weight? What about the conflict of having an "Assistant to the GM" that is also an "Assistant Coach"?

!!!!!!!

Is Capuano staying here a GM decision or a budgetary decision? We know we've cut Hockey Operations overall staff, so where does that aspect of it end? These are rhetorical questions, but does anyone really know the answers to them?

Just to be clear, if we ended up with a new owner who then cleaned out the entire front office, it's not like I don't think that would be a good idea. I also would hope that included fully funding the hockey team from top to bottom. No GM worth their salt is going to come into this situation and stay long if they're not given the proper tools to do the job.

!!!!!!! Ladies and gentlemen, Neil Smith.

Doesn't that seem the most likely reason why we've had a bunch of "NHL rookies" in the coach and GM positions?

Quite frankly, we can do better from top to bottom. I think Snow has done a good job in a ****** situation. Not great, not awesome, just good. However, is Snow's fear to overpay in salary or assets a symptom of the financial situation we're in? Is it not even a fear, but a mandate from above?

I also don't know the answers to those last questions. All I know is that we've gone for budget signings whenever possible across the board. We've tried shortcuts and tricks to try and build a roster.

Niederreiter, and as more of a hockey decision than a financial one, Bailey. All the forward- rolling contracts.

All of the signs point towards a tight budget over everything else. This doesn't exonerate Snow from not fixing a thing here and there that he could have, but you have got to be ******** me if you think we were allowed to sign two defenders this past offseason.



Look at the current payroll and its history. At least we're legitimately near the lower limit instead of far below it as we have been in the past. Mind you, that is almost exclusively through retaining our own players. Until we spend above the minimum, there is no reason to believe we're allowed to.

,
Mitch

Mitch - I have to say thank you ESPECIALLY FOR THIS POST.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is exactly the point.

 

[blitzkriegs]

Until we spend above the minimum, there is no reason to believe we're allowed to.

,
Mitch

Which says to Vanek? "Am I the guy being used to get to the floor next season? Or are they serious about spending above and beyond me?"

It's a very legit question that would make most people say "dont trus it!"

 

[blitzkriegs]

Are we even sure that Snow can fire Capuano? Would Snow be allowed to fire Doug Weight? What about the conflict of having an "Assistant to the GM" that is also an "Assistant Coach"?

Is Capuano staying here a GM decision or a budgetary decision? We know we've cut Hockey Operations overall staff, so where does that aspect of it end? These are rhetorical questions, but does anyone really know the answers to them?

Well, if one was looking to sell the franchise, then Wanger made it very attractive in that regard. Skeleton staff, low overhead, moving to a 'new building', nice juicy lease/royalty arrangement, etc.

The franchise value is going to rocket when they move to BC - that's what he is waiting for. He doesn't care about what someone else will do after the team is sold.

 

[The Underboss]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=79486159#post79486159


Next edition open since we're approaching 1k in posts.