Sidney Crosby surpassing Alexander Ovechkin in career points watch (UPD: Ovechkin ahead by 6)

[ricky0034]

Generically elite is a really weird phrase for the best player of his generation.

Focus on a single thing always obscures the big picture.

not really,he's consistently put up very good production throughout his career but never really all time great level,only ever pulled off two Art Ross wins

i'd say "generically elite" is a pretty good phrase for it when talking about it in all time terms

 

[Frosty415]

Ov is clearly better

 

[daver]

not really,he's consistently put up very good production throughout his career but never really all time great level,only ever pulled off two Art Ross wins

i'd say "generically elite" is a pretty good phrase for it when talking about it in all time terms

Since when are generically elite players on pace for the #5 player all-time?

 

[ricky0034]

Since when are generically elite players on pace for the #5 player all-time?

#5 in what sense? points per game?

first of all he's 6th right now

second of all it's a lot easier to have a high points per game when you're missing a bunch of games than if you're playing full seasons,look at Crosby's points per game in his full seasons once he got after his injuries compared to his much ballyhooed paces,look at the high points per game of other players that missed lots of time like Forsberg(top 10!) and Lindros etc

third and probably most importantly he's only 31 right now,career points per game paces go down fast as you age and your production declines and he's got a lot of that ahead of him before his career is done

just as an example say Crosby plays 7 more seasons and averages a point per game(some above some below as he continues to age),all of a sudden he's 14th in points per game instead of 6th,and all from playing to a normal age at a super gentle decline,he could very easily play longer or decline more or both as well

there's a reason Mike Bossy is third all time in points per game and it's not just an era thing

 

[wetcoast]

not really,he's consistently put up very good production throughout his career but never really all time great level,only ever pulled off two Art Ross wins

i'd say "generically elite" is a pretty good phrase for it when talking about it in all time terms

Okay still don't understand the term genetically elite, what other players are generically elite then?

What other players hit the ground running like Crosby did and have the extended career prime that he does?

Maybe a hand full of forwards all time?

 

[DearDiary]

#5 in what sense? points per game?

first of all he's 6th right now

second of all it's a lot easier to have a high points per game when you're missing a bunch of games than if you're playing full seasons,look at Crosby's points per game in his full seasons once he got after his injuries compared to his much ballyhooed paces

third and probably most importantly he's only 31 right now,career points per game paces go down fast as you age and your production declines and he's got a lot of that ahead of him before his career is done

there's a reason Mike Bossy is third all time in points per game and it's not just an era thing

You're ignoring that Crosby injuries came in his prime, where players put up their biggest numbers. His career numbers take a hit because the number of games played in his prime is so low.

You're also ignoring that you don't fully recover from injuries. The high ankle injury early in his career permantly affected his speed. The concussion had him shy away from his best areas for several seasons.

It's mind numbing reading that people think playing a ratio of more games on your decline vs your prime actually helps your numbers...

 

[ricky0034]

You're ignoring that Crosby injuries came in his prime, where players put up their biggest numbers. His career numbers take a hit because the number of games played in his prime is so low.

You're also ignoring that you don't fully recover from injuries. The high ankle injury early in his career permantly affected his speed. The concussion had him shy away from his best areas for several seasons.

It's mind numbing reading that people think playing a ratio of more games on your decline vs your prime actually helps your numbers...

not nearly as mind numbing as it was being around here while he kept getting injured and reading people post every day that he was for sure gonna put up a 140 point season as soon as he managed to stay healthy

still waiting on that one

 

[SEALBound]

only on HF is being a goal scorer a secondary citizen when it comes to all time greats......

Well...yeah sorta. Kinda like how Brett Hull is never really in the discussion with Gretzky and Lemieux. When you talk about all time greats, you need to be an all time great. You need to do all of the things that an all time great does...not just one aspect.

Granted, Ovechkin will go down as one of the greatest goal scorers of all time. But I think he's a little late in his career to start doing the things he needs to do to be in the discussion for all time greats.

Both will retire with the exact same number of points. It's the only conclusion to their intertwined careers.

Ovi will be done first. Sid's last game...they are tied in points. Empty net, Sid has the puck...and he will intentionally shoot it wide and give that Sid smile. 30 teams and 99% of the population will understand, nod, and wipe a small tear off. Capitals fans will start a thread here titled "ZOMG Sid missed that goal, how much better is Ovechkin!? GOALZ!".

 

[ricky0034]

Okay still don't understand the term genetically elite, what other players are generically elite then?

What other players hit the ground running like Crosby did and have the extended career prime that he does?

Maybe a hand full of forwards all time?

it's not all that long a list sure,but again i'm using that term in an all time sense

sure he's had a gaudy career when you compare it against just regular players,but compared to the best of the best? not so much

 

[wetcoast]

it's not all that long a list sure,but again i'm using that term in an all time sense

sure he's had a gaudy career when you compare it against just regular players,but compared to the best of the best? not so much

Well the HOH section on these boards recently ranked him 12th all time

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Voting Results

But then again that's a pretty generic group right?

 

[McVechkin]

When two players start their careers the same season and one has 5 fewer points in 141 less games played. It’s painfully obvious who the better player is

Crosby is the better overall player. Ovechkin is my fav player, but I can admit that. But it’s flawed logic to use points as a comparison. 2 players playing with different teams, coaches, systems, divisions (majority of career). Comparing points is baseless imo.

Not to mention their positions/strengths. Systems are set up for Ovechkin to score.. when you are the goal scorer that everything flows through, there are less points for you to get. But when you are the play maker, there are more points to get. Not arguing which is more valuable, as I think all points are equal... but you need to consider when comparing point totals.

Further. Something needs to be said for Ovechkins durability. Plays like a bull and rarely misses games... plays through a lot of pain /minor injuries. Would hurt his PPG stats.

 

[Hank Plank]

Ov is clearly better

At golfing, practice makes perfect.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Why is this thread a thing? Does anyone care today?

Get back to me when they retire.

 

[Frosty415]

At golfing, practice makes perfect.

Nah, goals > secondary sid


Malkin > Crosby

 

[TomDelonge]

At golfing, practice makes perfect.

Funny thing to say about a guy who is the current conn smythe trophy winner and a 2018 Cup winner.

 

[binary0x01]

I'm thinking if AO gets his Canadian citizenship all of a sudden he's going to be better than Crosby. Just a thought though...

 

[daver]

#5 in what sense? points per game?

As in the number 5 best player all-time.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

not really,he's consistently put up very good production throughout his career but never really all time great level,only ever pulled off two Art Ross wins

i'd say "generically elite" is a pretty good phrase for it when talking about it in all time terms

Only pulled two art ross trophies because of injuries. Or the minimum would be 5.

 

[mad4comp]

Only pulled two art ross trophies because of injuries. Or the minimum would be 5.

If ifs and buts were candies and nuts.....

Basically the takeaway from your statement is that one guy is durable... the other is not. Funny how pens fans keep adding the "fluke" tag in front of injuries and crosby... as if to suggest it's always a fluke when he gets injured.

 

[JetsHomer]

You're ignoring that Crosby injuries came in his prime, where players put up their biggest numbers. His career numbers take a hit because the number of games played in his prime is so low.

You're also ignoring that you don't fully recover from injuries. The high ankle injury early in his career permantly affected his speed. The concussion had him shy away from his best areas for several seasons.

It's mind numbing reading that people think playing a ratio of more games on your decline vs your prime actually helps your numbers...

You don't get credit for imaginary games you never played

 

[DearDiary]

You don't get credit for imaginary games you never played

Where did I say that it did? You replied to the wrong post?

I replied to a guy arguing that Crosby missing games in his peak actually helps his career ppg

a) 200 prime games, 400 mode games, 400 declining games. 1000 total games, 20% of games played in prime
vs
b) 50 prime games, 400 mode games. 400 declining games. 850 total games., 5.6% of games played in prime

People are arguing that B is more advantageous than A...

 

[daver]

Where did I say that it did? You replied to the wrong post?

I replied to a guy arguing that Crosby missing games in his peak actually helps his career ppg

a) 200 prime games, 400 mode games, 400 declining games. 1000 total games, 20% of games played in prime
vs
b) 50 prime games, 400 mode games. 400 declining games. 850 total games., 5.6% of games played in prime

People are arguing that B is more advantageous than A...

One poster has said that Crosby "padded his PPG" by missing time.

 

[DearDiary]

One poster has said that Crosby "padded his PPG" by missing time.

It's a common hfboards argument here that Crosby's half seasons pump up his ppg

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

canadian

canadien? what's that aboot?

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Ov is clearly better

OV is better at growing premature gray hair and drinking excessively yes