Should They be Hall of Famers Someday?

Should They be Hall of Famers Someday?

  • Barry Bonds

    Votes: 41 74.5%
  • Roger Clemens

    Votes: 39 70.9%
  • A-Rod

    Votes: 37 67.3%
  • Albert Pujols

    Votes: 50 90.9%
  • Adrian Beltre

    Votes: 33 60.0%
  • Pete Rose

    Votes: 32 58.2%
  • Curt Schilling

    Votes: 34 61.8%
  • Lou Whitaker

    Votes: 12 21.8%
  • Mike Trout

    Votes: 48 87.3%
  • Zack Greinke

    Votes: 20 36.4%
  • Rafael Palmeiro

    Votes: 10 18.2%
  • Justin Verlander

    Votes: 44 80.0%
  • Bobby Grich

    Votes: 4 7.3%
  • Carlos Beltran

    Votes: 15 27.3%
  • Scott Rolen

    Votes: 15 27.3%
  • Rick Reuschel

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • Clayton Kershaw

    Votes: 46 83.6%

  • Total voters
    55

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
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Pudge Rodriguez, Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell have had steroid accusations for years and they went in no problem.

f*** out of here, Clemons and Bonds are going to get in but they are gonna take the ever lasting final year of eligibility.

Especially Pudge Rodriguez, who came up the Texas Rangers system with fellow injector Rafael Palmerio.

Rodriguez is one of the most obvious dopers ever, and the free pass he’s been given is absolutely bizarre. Remember when the heat started to build on steroids and he came to training camp in Detroit, like, 25 pounds lighter?

The Tigers' Rodriguez Is Now a Svelte Pudge

And then look what magically happened to his OPS+ at the exact same time as his mysterious weight loss:

Ivan Rodriguez Stats | Baseball-Reference.com
 
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Perennial

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Jun 27, 2020
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Ironic as hell with all the Rose apologists in here...

And not disclosing what the mlb never definitively found is hardly lying. It's the testers/leagues job to prove what the player took. They don't have a moral obligation to freely disclose what they put in their bodies just to appease people.

No, they don't have to disclose what they put in their bodies...

And people don't have to give them the benefit of the doubt
 

Quid Pro Clowe

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Dec 28, 2008
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Rodriguez is one of the most obvious dopers ever, and the free pass he’s been given is absolutely bizarre. Remember when the heat started to build on steroids and he came to training camp in Detroit, like, 25 pounds lighter?

The Tigers' Rodriguez Is Now a Svelte Pudge

And then look what magically happened to his OPS+ at the exact same time as his mysterious weight loss:

Ivan Rodriguez Stats | Baseball-Reference.com
He smiled all the time and was nice in interviews. It's crazy the unconscious biases people have when it comes to remembrance. People rationalize for some , then bury others for the exact same things.
 
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Terry Yake

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Aug 5, 2013
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there are already players in the HOF who used PEDs, and they continue to be inducted, as we saw with pudge. so it is complete bullshit that all time greats like bonds and clemens are being kept out because they were a**holes
 
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yada

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Nov 6, 2006
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It is funny how pudge rodriguez was inducted with no issue yet people used to say he was on steroids more then any player not named canseco or mcgwire and this was before bonds. All that matters is david ortiz is going to break the damn once hes inducted because a large number of media members will skip over that positive test yet enough media will bring it up to make a scene.

Bonds and clemens will not be inducted until at least they are veterans committee eligible and they wont get in first year.
 

zizbuka

Registered User
Apr 4, 2017
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Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit that Rose bet on baseball? Look at people who are already in. Clearly morality and integrity does not matter.

Not a Rose fan, I think he's very overrated, but there's no consistency with MLB. Rose bet on baseball, but don't know if he affected the play on the field. Astros cheated, definitely affected the championship and MLB don't have the balls to punish them. The Astros should've been banned from playoffs for 10 years.

Here's a thought; Will any of these Astros be punished by HOF voters for the cheating? What they did is at least as bad as steroids, probably much worse.
 
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zizbuka

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Apr 4, 2017
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It is funny how pudge rodriguez was inducted with no issue yet people used to say he was on steroids more then any player not named canseco or mcgwire and this was before bonds. All that matters is david ortiz is going to break the damn once hes inducted because a large number of media members will skip over that positive test yet enough media will bring it up to make a scene.

Bonds and clemens will not be inducted until at least they are veterans committee eligible and they wont get in first year.

I don't think Ortiz should be in the HOF because he's not good enough. He was a 1 tool player, couldn't play defense, couldn't run the bases.
 

Cas

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Not a Rose fan, I think he's very overrated, but there's no consistency with MLB. Rose bet on baseball, but don't know if he affected the play on the field. Astros cheated, definitely affected the championship and MLB don't have the balls to punish them. The Astros should've been banned from playoffs for 10 years.

The two events aren't really comparable - baseball has had a zero tolerance policy on personnel gambling on the sport since 1920, and it's arguably the most famous punishment a player can receive. Rose knew what he was doing (and had the gall to lie about it for years).

Of course, now that we're putting gambling kiosks into ballparks, who knows or cares. I can't wait for Rose to be the official DraftKings spokesman during the World Series, in a dual appearance with Mike Trout.

I don't think Ortiz should be in the HOF because he's not good enough. He was a 1 tool player, couldn't play defense, couldn't run the bases.

He wouldn't be the first player in the Hall of Fame like that, and that's even when you exclude the obvious mistakes. Harmon Killebrew comes to mind. Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, and Harry Heilmann, too.
 

Cas

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I decided to play around with a hypothetical, extreme one-dimensional player as a thought experiment.

This player is an extremely durable first baseman, who is so terrible defensively that he will misplay one out of every ten defensive chances he gets, and his team knows that. However, to compensate, he is guaranteed to hit a home run every time he comes to the plate (even if the other team tries to walk or plunk him). He's also slower than molasses, but because he always homers it doesn't matter. How many runs will this player create offensively, compared to how many he will give up defensively?

I put him in the 1979 NL, where the average first baseman who played every inning of every game saw 1609 defensive chances. I'll assume 1600 for now, with 160 errors (the average team saw 13 errors at 1B). An error is worth about 0.51 runs, on average (some more, some less). That's 75 runs worse than an average first baseman - perhaps worse than that, since this guy has no range and a terrible glove and arm, so he gets to fewer balls than average. Let's give him another 25 runs lost defensively, compared to an average first baseman.

He's also going to bat about 700 times - 4.3 times per game, which is about typical for a player playing every inning of every game. In reality, you'd probably sit this guy in the last inning of close games where you're ahead in favor of a defensive whiz who can't hit, but let's ignore that for now since it'll hardly affect his plate appearances. A home run is worth about 1.4 runs, on average. That's 980 runs created.

Very few teams in major league history have scored 1000 runs in a single season. This guy is giving you 700, minimum, and in reality closer to 1000. That ignores what the rest of the team contributes offensively. If the rest of the team is average, you're probably going to give up (in a 1979 NL environment) something like 750-800 runs. You're also going to score some stupid number of runs - 1200? 1300? I don't even know. Your team ERA is going to be north of 4.00, maybe close to 5.00 (assuming average pitching). But you're going to score 7-8 runs per game, and a guaranteed 3 at minimum. You're going to slug your way to a championship, odds are.

...

Now, this is an admittedly absurd example, but my point here is that it doesn't matter how you generate your value. If you generate all of your value through power, and give the team no excess value in the field or on the bases, you're still just as valuable as a player who generates the same number of runs through plus defense and speed but who uses a banjo at the plate instead of a bat. I don't care how many "dimensions" a player had when they're being evaluated for the Hall of Fame - I care how many runs, and thus how many wins, that player's "dimensions" created.
 

zizbuka

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Apr 4, 2017
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That's a silly exercise. Hall of Fame means all around excellence to me. Not excellent in one area, and dismal in every other area. HOF is for the cream of the crop. If you're in the bottom 10% in 4 of 5 areas, you don't belong.
 

Cas

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That's a silly exercise. Hall of Fame means all around excellence to me. Not excellent in one area, and dismal in every other area. HOF is for the cream of the crop. If you're in the bottom 10% in 4 of 5 areas, you don't belong.

I mean, you can say that, but the horse has long since left the barn when players like the ones I named (all excellent hitters but extremely poor fielders and runners) were elected with little argument.

That doesn't even touch mistakes like Tommy McCarthy (who was basically an average corner outfielder with a short career, half of which was spent in the weak American Association). Of course, McCarthy could also field, run, and even pitch (albeit poorly), so even though he wasn't any better than Jackie Bradley, he was an "all-around" player.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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I don't think Ortiz should be in the HOF because he's not good enough. He was a 1 tool player, couldn't play defense, couldn't run the bases.

sorry but thats a pretty dumb argument. that means your HOF is 5 tool players only.

and FYI, Ortiz was average at defense and base running.

Yeah, he didnt steal bases, but steals <> baserunning. He was good on the paths and rarely was thrown out advancing when he shouldn't or missed a chance to take an extra bag. His defense was average as well posting a .990 fld% in 278 games, only .003 below league average over that time.

Secondly, the DH is a legitimate position in baseball and has existed for 40 years, get over it. Someone who was the best DH over a decade deserves to be in just as much as the best pitcher or the best CF.

Look at it this way, by your own logic Ovechkin his not a HOF'er. His defense is non existent and he cant pass, all he does is score goals
 

Cas

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sorry but thats a pretty dumb argument. that means your HOF is 5 tool players only.

and FYI, Ortiz was average at defense and base running.

Yeah, he didnt steal bases, but steals <> baserunning. He was good on the paths and rarely was thrown out advancing when he shouldn't or missed a chance to take an extra bag. His defense was average as well posting a .990 fld% in 278 games, only .003 below league average over that time.

Secondly, the DH is a legitimate position in baseball and has existed for 40 years, get over it. Someone who was the best DH over a decade deserves to be in just as much as the best pitcher or the best CF.

Look at it this way, by your own logic Ovechkin his not a HOF'er. His defense is non existent and he cant pass, all he does is score goals

I would dispute Ortiz being average defensively or on the basepaths.

There's a reason he was a DH - he lacked range and had an iron glove. Fielding percentage is essentially a joke stat anyway, but Ortiz was not good there - in 1998, the only season he played more than 500 innings in the field, he was second to last in FD% among first baseman with 500 defensive innings, just ahead of Will Clark. Ortiz rarely had a significant sample of defensive innings, but in his most active seasons, he was usually near the bottom.

He wasn't great shakes as a baserunner, either. He took 199 extra bases across his entire career and was thrown out on the basepaths 95 times (excluding pickoffs and times caught stealing, which contributed another 13 outs). I don't think there are meaningful league average stats for these figures, because they're so contextual, but reasonably close contemporaries (I checked on Pujols, Beltre, Mauer, Teixeira, Konerko, and Giambi) generally had better ratios of extra bases taken to outs on base.

Ortiz was "one-dimensional" - he was a hitter and nothing else. But he was very, very good at hitting. I don't know for certain that I'd vote for him, but I certainly wouldn't rule him out on the basis of not being able to run or play the field.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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I would dispute Ortiz being average defensively or on the basepaths.

There's a reason he was a DH - he lacked range and had an iron glove. Fielding percentage is essentially a joke stat anyway, but Ortiz was not good there - in 1998, the only season he played more than 500 innings in the field, he was second to last in FD% among first baseman with 500 defensive innings, just ahead of Will Clark. Ortiz rarely had a significant sample of defensive innings, but in his most active seasons, he was usually near the bottom.

He wasn't great shakes as a baserunner, either. He took 199 extra bases across his entire career and was thrown out on the basepaths 95 times (excluding pickoffs and times caught stealing, which contributed another 13 outs). I don't think there are meaningful league average stats for these figures, because they're so contextual, but reasonably close contemporaries (I checked on Pujols, Beltre, Mauer, Teixeira, Konerko, and Giambi) generally had better ratios of extra bases taken to outs on base.

Ortiz was "one-dimensional" - he was a hitter and nothing else. But he was very, very good at hitting. I don't know for certain that I'd vote for him, but I certainly wouldn't rule him out on the basis of not being able to run or play the field.

If you are judging him on hitting only, then he's a no doubt hall of fame player.

Ortiz's all time rankings:

slugging%: 23rd
home runs: 17th
RBI: 22nd
doubles: 12th
extra base hits: 8th

On top of 7x Silver Slugger, 3x WS Champ (ALCS MVP and WS MVP). A WS slash line of .455/.576/.795 and OPS of 1.372 over 14 games. Hell, against the Dodgers alone he slashed .688/.760/1.188 and OPS of 1.948. Even his overall slash line in 85 playoffs games is damn good at .289/.404/.543 and OPS of .947

Point being, as a hitter he's up there with the all time greats and has no holes in the resume
 

Quid Pro Clowe

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If you are judging him on hitting only, then he's a no doubt hall of fame player.

Ortiz's all time rankings:

slugging%: 23rd
home runs: 17th
RBI: 22nd
doubles: 12th
extra base hits: 8th

On top of 7x Silver Slugger, 3x WS Champ (ALCS MVP and WS MVP). A WS slash line of .455/.576/.795 and OPS of 1.372 over 14 games. Hell, against the Dodgers alone he slashed .688/.760/1.188 and OPS of 1.948. Even his overall slash line in 85 playoffs games is damn good at .289/.404/.543 and OPS of .947

Point being, as a hitter he's up there with the all time greats and has no holes in the resume
Besides the same hole Bonds and Clemens have, or are they different for some reason?
 

yada

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If youre allowing steroids then ortiz has to be inducted. Personally i hate the DH and wish it was removed in both the AL and NL however it is a position so i cant penalize players that fit that category and ortiz was one of the best at it. He had good post season success as a player and a team.
 

zizbuka

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Apr 4, 2017
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sorry but thats a pretty dumb argument. that means your HOF is 5 tool players only.

and FYI, Ortiz was average at defense and base running.

Yeah, he didnt steal bases, but steals <> baserunning. He was good on the paths and rarely was thrown out advancing when he shouldn't or missed a chance to take an extra bag. His defense was average as well posting a .990 fld% in 278 games, only .003 below league average over that time.

Secondly, the DH is a legitimate position in baseball and has existed for 40 years, get over it. Someone who was the best DH over a decade deserves to be in just as much as the best pitcher or the best CF.

Look at it this way, by your own logic Ovechkin his not a HOF'er. His defense is non existent and he cant pass, all he does is score goals

We could argue all day, it's just an opinion. It wasn't just that Ortiz was a poor fielder or baserunner, which he was. It's that he didn't even play the field. If the AL got rid of the DH, I'm not sure he would've had a regular job. He was a hitter, who was limited to playing for half the league. That doesn't sound like HOF to me.
 

Cas

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We could argue all day, it's just an opinion. It wasn't just that Ortiz was a poor fielder or baserunner, which he was. It's that he didn't even play the field. If the AL got rid of the DH, I'm not sure he would've had a regular job. He was a hitter, who was limited to playing for half the league. That doesn't sound like HOF to me.

A hitter as good as Ortiz was would have played. The question would be how long he played, and whether he could have avoided injury, but he would have played.
 

Perennial

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Jun 27, 2020
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Why aren't one-dimensional pitchers held to the same standard?

Nobody would suggest keeping an elite pitcher out of the Hall of Fame because they weren't good defensively, or because they were a lousy baserunner...
 

Cas

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Why aren't one-dimensional pitchers held to the same standard?

Nobody would suggest keeping an elite pitcher out of the Hall of Fame because they weren't good defensively, or because they were a lousy baserunner...

Sandy Koufax was a terrible hitter, even for a pitcher. He couldn't even bunt - his success rate at sacrifice bunts was below 50% in an era where 75% was average.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Why aren't one-dimensional pitchers held to the same standard?

Nobody would suggest keeping an elite pitcher out of the Hall of Fame because they weren't good defensively, or because they were a lousy baserunner...

My counter to the DH argument has always been closers. No one says closers shouldn't be in the HOF because they only pitch 1 inning at a time and arent "real pitchers".
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
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We could argue all day, it's just an opinion. It wasn't just that Ortiz was a poor fielder or baserunner, which he was. It's that he didn't even play the field. If the AL got rid of the DH, I'm not sure he would've had a regular job. He was a hitter, who was limited to playing for half the league. That doesn't sound like HOF to me.

he absolutely wouldve been in the field if required. they would've stuck him at 1st base like every other slugger...Frank Thomas, Pujols, Jim Thome, McCovey, Eddie Murray, etc. 1st base is where you stick the big slow slugger.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,612
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Vancouver, BC
My counter to the DH argument has always been closers. No one says closers shouldn't be in the HOF because they only pitch 1 inning at a time and arent "real pitchers".

Mariano Rivera belongs in the BHOF. There is an argument for Eckersley. Every other closer that’s in there is a joke.
 

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