Should They be Hall of Famers Someday?

Should They be Hall of Famers Someday?

  • Barry Bonds

    Votes: 41 74.5%
  • Roger Clemens

    Votes: 39 70.9%
  • A-Rod

    Votes: 37 67.3%
  • Albert Pujols

    Votes: 50 90.9%
  • Adrian Beltre

    Votes: 33 60.0%
  • Pete Rose

    Votes: 32 58.2%
  • Curt Schilling

    Votes: 34 61.8%
  • Lou Whitaker

    Votes: 12 21.8%
  • Mike Trout

    Votes: 48 87.3%
  • Zack Greinke

    Votes: 20 36.4%
  • Rafael Palmeiro

    Votes: 10 18.2%
  • Justin Verlander

    Votes: 44 80.0%
  • Bobby Grich

    Votes: 4 7.3%
  • Carlos Beltran

    Votes: 15 27.3%
  • Scott Rolen

    Votes: 15 27.3%
  • Rick Reuschel

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • Clayton Kershaw

    Votes: 46 83.6%

  • Total voters
    55

Cas

Conversational Black Hole
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I voted yes on everyone except Rose, Palmeiro, and Reuschel, and I'd entertain the last two.

I hope I never live to see Rose get the call.

I can think of plenty of other options - Mauer, Munson, Keith Hernandez, Joe Start, Ross Barnes, Bill Dahlen, Jack Glasscock, Dick Allen, Boyer, Minoso, Dwight Evans... I'd have more with my lists in front of me.
 
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Perennial

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Jun 27, 2020
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I voted yes on everyone except Rose, Palmeiro, and Reuschel, and I'd entertain the last two.

I hope I never live to see Rose get the call.

I can think of plenty of other options - Mauer, Munson, Keith Hernandez, Joe Start, Ross Barnes, Bill Dahlen, Jack Glasscock, Dick Allen, Boyer, Minoso, Dwight Evans... I'd have more with my lists in front of me.

6 players in history are members of both the 500 home run club, and the 3,000 hit club...

Palmeiro is one of the 6

Mays, Aaron, A-Rod, Pujols, and Eddie Murray are the others

If you're going to ignore steroid use with other players, how do you justify not voting for Palmeiro?
 

AaronDellForPrez

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Dec 29, 2009
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I voted yes on everyone except Rose, Palmeiro, and Reuschel, and I'd entertain the last two.

I hope I never live to see Rose get the call.

I can think of plenty of other options - Mauer, Munson, Keith Hernandez, Joe Start, Ross Barnes, Bill Dahlen, Jack Glasscock, Dick Allen, Boyer, Minoso, Dwight Evans... I'd have more with my lists in front of me.

Rose should be in. And Bonds obviously. Without Bonds and Rose, the hall of fame is literally the "hall of 'not quite the best hitters but at least the best pitchers'"
 

Cas

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6 players in history are members of both the 500 home run club, and the 3,000 hit club...

Palmeiro is one of the 6

Mays, Aaron, A-Rod, Pujols, and Eddie Murray are the others

If you're going to ignore steroid use with other players, how do you justify not voting for Palmeiro?

I was operating off of memory and thought his career WAR was closer to 60 than past 70.

I actually have him as closer to borderline but on the right side of it in the statistical rankings I did a couple of years ago, ranking below McCovey and Chance and above Murray and Giambi. He had a relatively weak peak and prime compared to many other first basemen (much like Murray) and my system ranks peak rather highly.

Rose should be in. And Bonds obviously. Without Bonds and Rose, the hall of fame is literally the "hall of 'not quite the best hitters but at least the best pitchers'"

I draw a firm line at Rose. I don't care what he did as a player - if I had a vote I would never, ever, under any circumstances vote for him or entertain a vote for him.

Rose isn't anywhere near Bonds as a hitter, or Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Gehrig, Mantle, Speaker, Pujols, Schmidt, or several dozen other hitters. He's Paul Molitor with a couple extra good years and a lot more filler.

The HOF doesn't have all the best pitchers, either. Clemens is missing. Schilling and Dick Redding have clear-cut credentials, and plenty of other pitchers have good cases (including Kevin Brown, Reuschel, Saberhagen, David Cone, Dave Stieb, and several 19th century pitchers).
 
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Cas

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Duplicate post
 
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Say Hey Kid

it's better to burn out than to fade awa
Dec 10, 2007
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Rose compiled. He was a great singles hitter before the era of shifts.
Agreed.

1. OF/1B/3B Pete Rose's .409 SLG% is 935th all time. He played the 3 most slugging positions and there are 934 guys ahead of him! :eek:

2. He only has 1041 XBHs out of 4256 hits. That's less than 25%! :eek:

3. It took him more than 14k ABs to compile less WAR than Bagwell did in less than 7800 ABs! :eek:

4. After 24 seasons he's not even top 1000 in defensive WAR! :eek:


5. I loved him as a kid in the 70s more than any Millennial ever has, but he's just not a HoFer. He belongs out.
 
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AaronDellForPrez

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I was operating off of memory and thought his career WAR was closer to 60 than past 70.

I actually have him as closer to borderline but on the right side of it in the statistical rankings I did a couple of years ago, ranking below McCovey and Chance and above Murray and Giambi. He had a relatively weak peak and prime compared to many other first basemen (much like Murray) and my system ranks peak rather highly.



I draw a firm line at Rose. I don't care what he did as a player - if I had a vote I would never, ever, under any circumstances vote for him or entertain a vote for him.

Rose isn't anywhere near Bonds as a hitter, or Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Gehrig, Mantle, Speaker, Pujols, Schmidt, or several dozen other hitters. He's Paul Molitor with a couple extra good years and a lot more filler.

The HOF doesn't have all the best pitchers, either. Clemens is missing. Schilling and Dick Redding have clear-cut credentials, and plenty of other pitchers have good cases (including Kevin Brown, Reuschel, Saberhagen, David Cone, Dave Stieb, and several 19th century pitchers).

Just as a random FYI, Dave Stieb graduated from my HS the year before I started.
 
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AaronDellForPrez

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I still think longevity is a valid 'fame' stat. No one has had his combination of hitting and longevity in the majors, to produce that many hits. Sure there are people with more hits per at bat, or more games played, but no one was as good as his combination obviously, to get as many hits in mlb. It's worth the hall on its own. 3000 hits used to be regarded as automatic. 4000 should certainly be, still.
 

Perennial

Registered User
Jun 27, 2020
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I was operating off of memory and thought his career WAR was closer to 60 than past 70.

I actually have him as closer to borderline but on the right side of it in the statistical rankings I did a couple of years ago, ranking below McCovey and Chance and above Murray and Giambi. He had a relatively weak peak and prime compared to many other first basemen (much like Murray) and my system ranks peak rather highly.

13th all-time in home runs
17th all-time in RBI
29th all-time in hits

That's a Hall of Fame career...
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Rose compiled. He was a great singles hitter before the era of shifts.

3 batting titles
7x led the league in hits
13x top 10 in BA
17x top 10 in hits
Hit finishes of 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,3,5,5,7,9
15x top 10 in doubles
8x top 10 in triples
11x top 10 in total bases

sustained excellence <> "compiling"

He led the league in hits for the 1st time in 1965 at age 24, and for the last time in 1981 at age 40. In fact, as a 40 yr old he led the league in hits and was 2nd in BA at .325. He may not have hit HRs, but he wasnt a slap hitter either. He has the 40th best WAR among position players (64th overall).

You can easily say he shouldn't be in for his gambling on the game, and I agree. But you cant knock his qualifications as a player
 
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Say Hey Kid

it's better to burn out than to fade awa
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Quid Pro Clowe

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3 batting titles
7x led the league in hits
13x top 10 in BA
17x top 10 in hits
Hit finishes of 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,3,5,5,7,9
15x top 10 in doubles
8x top 10 in triples
11x top 10 in total bases

sustained excellence <> "compiling"

He led the league in hits for the 1st time in 1965 at age 24, and for the last time in 1981 at age 40. In fact, as a 40 yr old he led the league in hits and was 2nd in BA at .325. He may not have hit HRs, but he wasnt a slap hitter either. He has the 40th best WAR among position players (64th overall).

You can easily say he shouldn't be in for his gambling on the game, and I agree. But you cant knock his qualifications as a player
Calling him a great singles hitter isn't knocking his qualifications, it's being honest. He hit way more singles than everyone else and every now and then would drop the head a bit.
 
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Cas

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Pete Rose absolutely is a Hall of Fame-worthy player. He was a "compiler" but at a high enough level that he would have belonged (even if he's often overrated and considered one of the best hitters of all time, which he is not).

Doesn't matter. Turn 700 of his singles into home runs, make him a brilliant defensive catcher, and have him pitch a World Series perfect game and it wouldn't change my mind.

Ichiro is deserving too, but the comparison to Rose is pointless. Rose isn't out because of anything he did on the field.
 
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Goalie_Bob

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Dec 30, 2005
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IMO, Rose will be voted in the year after he dies. The HOF and the HOF voters don't want him to benefit off the notoriety of being a HOFer.

And I believe he would be in the HOF if he had admitted what he had done when he was caught. If he had shown contrition and a sense of guilt, he would be a HOFer. Instead he stated for years he didn't do it, even though the evidence showed that he had, then he would show up just outside the HOF every year and mock the ceremony etc...

The guy is a world class jerk and that is 90% of the reason why isn't there.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Rose compiled. He was a great singles hitter before the era of shifts.

Pete Rose had 68 WAR in 12 seasons from 1965-76. He was absolutely not a compiler. Plus he was a monster in the playoffs - hit .321 and won 3 WS. And he was a great doubles hitter - led MLB 4 times in 5 years at one point. The corpse of Rose in the 1980s became a slap-happy singles hitter but that wasn't what he was in his prime.

If Pete Rose played only those 12 seasons, he's in the BHOF. Easily.

Someone like Lou Brock is actually a compiler.
 

Vector

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F*ck Pete Rose and f*ck Curt Schilling.

Once Bud Selig got in then every player embroiled in a steroid scandal should also get in. Knew exactly what was happening, profited from it, then feigned ignorance and moral outrage.
 
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BigBadBruins7708

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Pete Rose had 68 WAR in 12 seasons from 1965-76. He was absolutely not a compiler. Plus he was a monster in the playoffs - hit .321 and won 3 WS. And he was a great doubles hitter - led MLB 4 times in 5 years at one point. The corpse of Rose in the 1980s became a slap-happy singles hitter but that wasn't what he was in his prime.

If Pete Rose played only those 12 seasons, he's in the BHOF. Easily.

Someone like Lou Brock is actually a compiler.

yup. plenty of true compilers have gotten in lately (mostly from the vets committee)

Trammell, Raines, Simmons, Blyleven, Morris, Lee Smith
 

Quid Pro Clowe

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Pete Rose had 68 WAR in 12 seasons from 1965-76. He was absolutely not a compiler. Plus he was a monster in the playoffs - hit .321 and won 3 WS. And he was a great doubles hitter - led MLB 4 times in 5 years at one point. The corpse of Rose in the 1980s became a slap-happy singles hitter but that wasn't what he was in his prime.

If Pete Rose played only those 12 seasons, he's in the BHOF. Easily.

Someone like Lou Brock is actually a compiler.
And a war of around 12 in his other 12 seasons. Over 75% of his hits were singles. Not denying his peak was very, very good, but when you talk about Rose as a player, you talk about the total of hits. His legacy is literally compiling.

Rose was a better player than Brock, and a different one.
 

MS

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And a war of around 12 in his other 12 seasons. Over 75% of his hits were singles. Not denying his peak was very, very good, but when you talk about Rose as a player, you talk about the total of hits. His legacy is literally compiling.

Rose was a better player than Brock, and a different one.

Absolutely, the Cobb record was compiling.

But for the first 15 seasons or so of Rose's career, he was an absolutely elite player. 80 WAR, MVP, ROY, 3x batting title, 3 WS. Calling Rose a compiler is like calling Mark Messier a compiler because his crappy seasons from 1997-2004 ran him up to being the NHL's #2 all-time scorer.

The 1980-86 period where Rose became a slappy underperforming 1B seems to have been retroactively applied throughout his career, when he was a line-drive hitting elite 2b/OF for the most part.
 

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