Should They be Hall of Famers Someday?

[MS]

yup. plenty of true compilers have gotten in lately (mostly from the vets committee)

Trammell, Raines, Simmons, Blyleven, Morris, Lee Smith

Agree on principle but disagree on some of the names. Lee Smith (and all relievers not named Mariano Rivera) and Harold Baines, yeah. Jack Morris, yeah ... but he's in because of two of the most dominant postseasons for a pitcher in the last 50 years. Simmons, yeah.

Trammell and Raines, no. Both were elite, defining players of the 1980s who were initially overlooked because they didn't hit enough HRs.

Bert Blyleven was an absolute superstar - better than Nolan Ryan and just behind Seaver/Carlton - who had the horrible misfortune of playing behind terrible (and small-market) teams in an era where pitchers were judged mostly on their W-L records. He was first in the AL in pitcher WAR on two occasions and 2nd on 3 more.

Times top-2 in WAR for pitchers :

Blyleven - 5
Niekro - 5
Seaver - 4
Carlton - 3
Perry - 3
Palmer - 2
Ryan - 1
Jenkins -1

Blyleven would have won 350 games and been a first-ballot BHOF guy if he'd spent a good chunk of his career with the Yankees/Dodgers/Cardinals. It was a joke it took him 15 years to get in.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Absolutely, the Cobb record was compiling.

But for the first 15 seasons or so of Rose's career, he was an absolutely elite player. 80 WAR, MVP, ROY, 3x batting title, 3 WS. Calling Rose a compiler is like calling Mark Messier a compiler because his crappy seasons from 1997-2004 ran him up to being the NHL's #2 all-time scorer.

The 1980-86 period where Rose became a slappy underperforming 1B seems to have been retroactively applied throughout his career, when he was a line-drive hitting elite 2b/OF for the most part.

To be fair, hanging around well after you should have retired so you can get the all-time record in a counting stat will alter perceptions of your overall career.

The Pete Rose leadership award would be hilarious.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

As an A's fan, I'm very happy they sent Rose home with an L in game 7 of the '72 world series. That's much more significant than keeping him out of the hall from my pov.

That said, betting on the game is the baseball version of a violation that will get you killed on the spot in prison (at least in theory). It really doesn't matter if any of us feel he should get in or not, it won't ever happen.

 

[MS]

To be fair, hanging around well after you should have retired so you can get the all-time record in a counting stat will alter perceptions of your overall career.

The Pete Rose leadership award would be hilarious.

I have no problem with criticizing his crappy seasons during the 1980s to limp to the hits record, but it shouldn't re-write his career and he definitely wasn't a compiler generally speaking. Again, you can draw a lot of parallels with Messier.

As an A's fan, I'm very happy they sent Rose home with an L in game 7 of the '72 world series. That's much more significant than keeping him out of the hall from my pov.

That said, betting on the game is the baseball version of a violation that will get you killed on the spot in prison (at least in theory). It really doesn't matter if any of us feel he should get in or not, it won't ever happen.

Agreed - I have no problem with his lifetime ban. Especially in baseball, when *everyone* knows the history of 1919 and knows exactly what would happen if you go down that road. You can't claim ignorance, like maybe you could in another sport.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

...The 1980-86 period where Rose became a slappy underperforming 1B seems to have been retroactively applied throughout his career, when he was a line-drive hitting elite 2b/OF for the most part.

Just no. He played more games at OF, 1B, and at 3B than 2B.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

10.	Christy Mathewson+ (17)	99.8	R
11.	Phil Niekro+ (24)	97.0	R
12.	Bert Blyleven+ (22)	96.1	R

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

...Trammell and Raines, no. Both were elite, defining players of the 1980s who were initially overlooked because they didn't hit enough HRs.

Bert Blyleven was an absolute superstar - better than Nolan Ryan and just behind Seaver/Carlton - who had the horrible misfortune of playing behind terrible (and small-market) teams in an era where pitchers were judged mostly on their W-L records. He was first in the AL in pitcher WAR on two occasions and 2nd on 3 more.

Times top-2 in WAR for pitchers :

Blyleven - 5
Niekro - 5
Seaver - 4
Carlton - 3
Perry - 3
Palmer - 2
Ryan - 1
Jenkins -1

Blyleven would have won 350 games and been a first-ballot BHOF guy if he'd spent a good chunk of his career with the Yankees/Dodgers/Cardinals. It was a joke it took him 15 years to get in.

Agreed. Blyleven is 12th all time in SP WAR. Most of the players in the poll played from 84-present so I'm gonna list my 11th-20th best non-pitchers who played from 84-present including HoFers in no order:

Ken Griffey Jr - At least 1 person born after 1980 will post that he should be top 10.
Cal Ripken Jr - Started in 81.
Scott Rolen
Barry Larkin
Chase Utley
Frank Thomas - I'm including fielding so he may have been top 10 in a hitting only list.
Joey Votto
Edgar Martinez - I'm including fielding so he may have been top 10 in a hitting only list.
Kenny Lofton
Jim Thome

 

[NJDevs26]

I voted yes for Pujols, Beltre, Rose, Schilling, Trout, Verlander, Beltran and Kershaw. Honestly I put Rose in a different category from the steroid guys, the steroid guys all cheated to get their numbers, Rose didn't. Grich, Greinke, Whitaker and Rolen I could maybe be convinced on, but I look at them all as very good, not HOF-level players.

Once Bud Selig got in then every player embroiled in a steroid scandal should also get in. Knew exactly what was happening, profited from it, then feigned ignorance and moral outrage.

This is a fair viewpoint, but I never like to put one guy in just because another is in. Especially since Selig wasn't voted in by the writers. When the vets' committee starts to overlook the steroid guys then it's a different discussion but right now it comes off like the whole Harold Baines is in so why can't I put another very good, non-elite player in flawed argument. You don't fix one wrong with another.

I do think the steroid guys will start getting in once Ortiz does, because he has a little bit of dirt on him but seems to be accepted as a lock HOF'er. Especially if/when we find out after the fact that someone else currently in the HOF was a juicer which is probably an inevitability.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Ortiz has more on him than Bonds does. Ortiz has failed tests and Bonds hasn't (despite the test not saying what Ortiz took).

*Disclaimer: This doesn't mean I'm saying Bonds was clean....but neither was Hank Aaron etc...

 

[MS]

Just no. He played more games at OF, 1B, and at 3B than 2B and played most of his career with HoF 2B Joe Morgan.

Morgan joined Cincinnati in Rose’s 10th season, and they played together for 8 years.

Rose started his career at 2B for his first 5 years, then moved to OF for nearly a decade, then moved to 3B in 1976 at age 35 at the tail end of his prime.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

...Rose started his career at 2B for his first 5 years, then moved to OF for nearly a decade, then moved to 3B in 1976 at age 35 at the tail end of his prime.

Rose played more games at OF, 1B, and 3B than 2B. Look it up. Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

 

[Say Hey Kid]

...*Disclaimer: This doesn't mean I'm saying Bonds was clean....but neither was Hank Aaron etc...

This is an HF baseball forum mental health issue that I've never seen anywhere else. PEDs were not even available to players during Aaron's career. Hank and Maris still hold the legit HR records. It's very well documented that Canseco was the first player to use PEDs. I've ridiculed this in the Bruins forum and no one has ever disagreed with me.

 

[MS]

Rose played more games at OF, 1B, and 3B than 2B. Look it up. Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

My initial comment was referring to the bulk of the prime of his career, not the tail end bits, which were after his prime at 3B and 1B.

The first 13 years of Rose’s career which constituted the bulk of his prime, he was at 2B and then OF. I’m not sure why you’re taking an issue with this.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

This is an HF baseball forum mental health issue that I've never seen anywhere else. PEDs were not even available to players during Aaron's career. Hank and Maris still hold the legit HR records. It's very well documented that Canseco was the first player to use PEDs. I've ridiculed this in the Bruins forum and no one has ever disagreed with me.

Aaron admitted to taking 'greenies', which guys like Gooden and Strawberry say (subjectively) amphetamines help more than anything else when it comes to ped's. I'll take the words of guys like them over the words of the so-called Bruins forum.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

My initial comment was referring to the bulk of the prime of his career, not the tail end bits, which were after his prime at 3B and 1B. The first 13 years of Rose’s career which constituted the bulk of his prime, he was at 2B and then OF. I’m not sure why you’re taking an issue with this.

Rose played more games at OF, 1B, and 3B than 2B. Look it up. Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Aaron admitted to taking 'greenies', which guys like Gooden and Strawberry say (subjectively) amphetamines help more than anything else when it comes to ped's. I'll take the words of guys like them over the words of the so-called Bruins forum.

Amphetamines are not PEDs. I'll take the word of doctors and scientists over known drug addicts like Gooden and Strawberry.

 

[MS]

Rose played more games at OF, 1B, and 3B than 2B. Look it up. Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

Because I’m not, and because I never said that he did play more games total at 2B. Go back and read my initial quote.

Your claim that he spent ‘most of his career next to Joe Morgan’ is the statement that is incorrect.

 

[82Ninety42011]

It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Class ridiculous Pete Rose is not there. The roid cheats should never be allowed.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Amphetamines are not PEDs. I'll take the word of doctors and scientists over known drug addicts like Gooden and Strawberry.

And I'll take the word of the guys who actually go on the field and have to perform.

Amphetamines are ped's. To say otherwise is ignorant.

Also, where have scientists and doctors claimed amphetamines weren't ped's, like you imply?

 

[jcs0218]

With EVERY player associated with gambling and steroid use, it becomes whether you think these factors should disqualify a player not or not.

Bonds, Clemens, Rose, etc., are all no-brainer HOF picks if you think their steroid and gambling shouldn't matter. Or they are no-chance, if you think these factors do matter.

There is no grey matter here. It is black or white. Which is why I don't understand how Bonds and Clemens voting results keep changing every year.

They are clearly HOFer's by their career statistics and resumes. They should have been 1st-ballot inductees or kept the same percentages every year.

Why is there is a yearly fluctuation of voting for them?

You are for them for their career accomplishments, or against them because of their flaws.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Baseball Reference defines Rose as an OF/1B/3B, because those are the 3 positions he played the most games at.

Bonds never hit more than 34 dingers...until he started cheating. Modern players from McGwire to the present have better bats and balls that make the ball go farther and they still have never broken Maris' HR record without cheating.

 

[Perennial]

Baseball Reference defines Rose as an OF/1B/3B, because those are the 3 positions he played the most games at.

Bonds never hit more than 34 dingers...until he started cheating. Modern players from McGwire to the present have better bats and balls that make the ball go farther and they still have never broken Maris' HR record without cheating.

The flip side of that is pitchers today throw harder, so they're tougher to hit...

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Amphetamines are not PEDs. I'll take the word of doctors and scientists over known drug addicts like Gooden and Strawberry.

Amphetamines are clearly PED's and players like Aaron were popping them like candy. Unless you think MLB banned them because they made players worse

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Baseball Reference defines Rose as an OF/1B/3B, because those are the 3 positions he played the most games at.

Bonds never hit more than 34 dingers...until he started cheating. Modern players from McGwire to the present have better bats and balls that make the ball go farther and they still have never broken Maris' HR record without cheating.

They juiced the baseballs during the steriod era, too. Ct scans of the baseballs from that era prove it. The fact he never hit more than 34 before entering his prime is hardly evidence of your point.

He also never was walked 200+ times before then, either. He was also a 40+ basestealer and a gg lf before his prime.

 

[Terry Yake]

there's already players in the HOF who took PEDs

 

[ZMan17]

With Rose, it's that it's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of nice/ethical people or good sportsmanship. Moreover, he earned it before he began cheating.

For steroid users like Bonds, McGwire, etc., again...ethics. Other steroid users are probably already in the HoF and others used greeenies. The league knew and let them get away with it, and many used steroids that were allowed until MLB and the PA instituted mandates to change that. Let them in, but make note of their transgressions, if they've been confirmed.