Should Holland be fired?

[Tobias Kahun]

A train wreck? Seriously?

Broberg was a fine pick where they were and yeah they missed out on some free agents but train wreck? Can you please tell me why you decided to use that term two weeks Into July and he’s been on the job a month?

I get this was before James Neal who should bounce back for today’s lucic but still....sometimes players don’t play well in Calgary. Chris drury was excellent for Colorado and buffalo but was awful for Calgary in the middle. Didn’t St. Louis originally play for Calgary and play bad or was he just a pick?

Dougie Hamilton, etc

This is the same poster who didn’t think McDavid would be all that good.

I wouldn’t take much he says seriously

 

[russ99]

Lol. /thread.

 

[jj cale]

I think this Lucic trade alone already beats anything Chiarelli did for the organization in his time there. I might be stretching it a bit but it has to be pretty close IMO.

 

[redgrant]

He fixed Chiarelli's number one error. Yes he didn't trade Lucic for Ovechkin but has given this team a ton of flexibility from a buy out option if needed.

At the very least we save one expansion slot getting Neal here.

 

[BlackDogg]

This was a fun thread. Time to close likely.

 

[Ck1]

Where are all the people saying he can’t/won’t trade lucic or even make a trade before next season. People saying he isn’t doing shit just sitting on his hands. From what he inherited from PC I think he has done the best that could be done in the short time he has been here. Finally we have someone with intelligence running the oilers and some don’t know how to deal with that. Time to shut this thread down.

 

[Paralyzer]

I did say the OP is an idiot for posting this. Now he is in bigger doo doo.

 

[Aerchon]

Seriously.

If you think trading Lucic for Neal is a "good" or lol great move by Holland your really reaching.

The move has the potential to be good but as is, has just as good a chance to actually make the team worse.

If you can't see how Neal was worse than Lucic last year you either didn't watch/follow him or you don't understand that goalscoring by itself does not equate to winning.

Neal is a terrible player. Last year was worse than Lucic. The "win" factor for the Oilers only comes if Neal somehow reverses time and has a significant revitalization of his career at 31. Which is just not realistic.

 

[Bangers]

Seriously.

If you think trading Lucic for Neal is a "good" or lol great move by Holland your really reaching.

The move has the potential to be good but as is, has just as good a chance to actually make the team worse.

If you can't see how Neal was worse than Lucic last year you either didn't watch/follow him or you don't understand that goalscoring by itself does not equate to winning.

Neal is a terrible player. Last year was worse than Lucic. The "win" factor for the Oilers only comes if Neal somehow reverses time and has a significant revitalization of his career at 31. Which is just not realistic.

To be fair, I like the trade - Lucic wasn't going to turn it around with the Oil, Neal might, and Neal is easier to trade/buy out and doesn't have a NMC.

That being said, 750k of additional dead cap space for the next 4 years (on top of the 5.75 the Oil are paying Neal) is a bit steep.

I see this move as a win, but it's not worth rejoicing and singing hallelujah like many posters are doing.

I'll be more impressed when the cap space is used on a top 6 player.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Where are all the people saying he can’t/won’t trade lucic or even make a trade before next season. People saying he isn’t doing **** just sitting on his hands. From what he inherited from PC I think he has done the best that could be done in the short time he has been here. Finally we have someone with intelligence running the oilers and some don’t know how to deal with that. Time to shut this thread down.

A lot of us aren't used to patience and not jumping to conclusions.

 

[CycloneSweep]

To be fair, I like the trade - Lucic wasn't going to turn it around with the Oil, Neal might, and Neal is easier to trade/buy out and doesn't have a NMC.

That being said, 750k of additional dead cap space for the next 4 years (on top of the 5.75 the Oil are paying Neal) is a bit steep.

I see this move as a win, but it's not worth rejoicing and singing hallelujah like many posters are doing.

I'll be more impressed when the cap space is used on a top 6 player.

Of Neal goes back to being his normal 20+ goal self, it's an enormous win

6.5 on a 2nd line winger over 6 on a 4th line face puncher is a massive improvement

 

[CycloneSweep]

Seriously.

If you think trading Lucic for Neal is a "good" or lol great move by Holland your really reaching.

The move has the potential to be good but as is, has just as good a chance to actually make the team worse.

If you can't see how Neal was worse than Lucic last year you either didn't watch/follow him or you don't understand that goalscoring by itself does not equate to winning.

Neal is a terrible player. Last year was worse than Lucic. The "win" factor for the Oilers only comes if Neal somehow reverses time and has a significant revitalization of his career at 31. Which is just not realistic.

Lucic as best was going to be playing on the 4th line doing nothing. Worst case Neal plays on the 4th line doing nothing. You then buy him out at a very reasonable amount and improve the team. Or trade him to a bottom feeder, which you couldn't with Lucic cause he could just say no. There is also a good chance Neal is a better player.

You can argue if it's a win or a massive win sure. But the pure flexibility this trade gives us opposed to Lucic is massive. Absolute worst case is Neal is worse than Lucic was last year and plays on the 4th line and then he is gone. The amount that it would actually effect the team is so f***ing minimal.

Trying to call this deal potentially bad is a massive reach on your part.

Edit: Saw a thread on twitter analyzing goal scorers like Neal past 30. It would actually be shocking if he didn't bounce back to an above 15 goal pace.

 

[Bangers]

Of Neal goes back to being his normal 20+ goal self, it's an enormous win

6.5 on a 2nd line winger over 6 on a 4th line face puncher is a massive improvement

Neal is 32. Maybe last year he was unlucky, but it's equally possible it was the beginning of the end for him.

Even if he does well, there is no way he continues to do so for the entirety of his contract.

Anyways, I hope we can get at least one good year from him.

 

[World Wanderer]

Seriously.

If you think trading Lucic for Neal is a "good" or lol great move by Holland your really reaching.

The move has the potential to be good but as is, has just as good a chance to actually make the team worse.

If you can't see how Neal was worse than Lucic last year you either didn't watch/follow him or you don't understand that goalscoring by itself does not equate to winning.

Neal is a terrible player. Last year was worse than Lucic. The "win" factor for the Oilers only comes if Neal somehow reverses time and has a significant revitalization of his career at 31. Which is just not realistic.

Oilers were going to go into next season paying 6 million for Lucic to sit on the 4th line and die a little inside of themselves everytime he stepped on the ice.

The oilers are now paying an additional 500K on top of that after the trade.

for that they get;
- the ability to trade Neal to whatever team they so choose to do so.
- the ability to buy him out next year with immediate cap savings over the three following seasons.
- can even bury him in the minors and save a small amount of cap space.

None of that they could have done a few days ago with Lucic.

and on top of that, which was all extremely important; they get to roll the dice that they upgraded a 4th liner to a top 6 winger, and only if he does turn back into a top 6 winger do they have to part with an asset, which is a minor 3rd round draft pick.

What exactly is not to like about this?

 

[Beerad]

They also don’t have to protect him at the expansion draft which will save us a good player.

 

[Aerchon]

Lucic as best was going to be playing on the 4th line doing nothing. Worst case Neal plays on the 4th line doing nothing. You then buy him out at a very reasonable amount and improve the team. Or trade him to a bottom feeder, which you couldn't with Lucic cause he could just say no. There is also a good chance Neal is a better player.

You can argue if it's a win or a massive win sure. But the pure flexibility this trade gives us opposed to Lucic is massive. Absolute worst case is Neal is worse than Lucic was last year and plays on the 4th line and then he is gone. The amount that it would actually effect the team is so ****ing minimal.

Trying to call this deal potentially bad is a massive reach on your part.

Edit: Saw a thread on twitter analyzing goal scorers like Neal past 30. It would actually be shocking if he didn't bounce back to an above 15 goal pace.

Oilers were going to go into next season paying 6 million for Lucic to sit on the 4th line and die a little inside of themselves everytime he stepped on the ice.

The oilers are now paying an additional 500K on top of that after the trade.

for that they get;
- the ability to trade Neal to whatever team they so choose to do so.
- the ability to buy him out next year with immediate cap savings over the three following seasons.
- can even bury him in the minors and save a small amount of cap space.

None of that they could have done a few days ago with Lucic.

and on top of that, which was all extremely important; they get to roll the dice that they upgraded a 4th liner to a top 6 winger, and only if he does turn back into a top 6 winger do they have to part with an asset, which is a minor 3rd round draft pick.

What exactly is not to like about this?

They also don’t have to protect him at the expansion draft which will save us a good player.

These are all examples of over rationalization to put a positive spin on a bad situation.

Buying out Neal at 2.75ish mill for 4-6 years at the end of next year would be a bad use of cap space. Short sighted and foolish. I f***ing want at least a couple years with zero f***ing buyouts clogging our ability to field a true cup contender. At some point our GMs, Coaching, and the team just need to take what we have and make it work.

The expansion draft spin is ridiculous. We have three forwards we currently need to protect. It does not matter if we were forced to protect Lucic.

If Neal continues to suck Seattle won't take him, we can't trade him, buying him out hurts prime McDavid years, AND we are paying him MORE than we were Lucic...

Seriously. This was not a "good" trade on paper. Sideways move is being reasonable. With an outside chance of being good IF Neal returns to form.

Goalscoring in itself does not = winning. Neal can score 30 next year and make the team worse. The Oilers relative goal scoring last year was "okish" it's their team defense that stank. Which Neal will not help.

 

[CycloneSweep]

These are all examples of over rationalization to put a positive spin on a bad situation.

Buying out Neal at 2.75ish mill for 4-6 years at the end of next year would be a bad use of cap space. Short sighted and foolish. I ****ing want at least a couple years with zero ****ing buyouts clogging our ability to field a true cup contender. At some point our GMs, Coaching, and the team just need to take what we have and make it work.

The expansion draft spin is ridiculous. We have three forwards we currently need to protect. It does not matter if we were forced to protect Lucic.

If Neal continues to suck Seattle won't take him, we can't trade him, buying him out hurts prime McDavid years, AND we are paying him MORE than we were Lucic...

Seriously. This was not a "good" trade on paper. Sideways move is being reasonable. With an outside chance of being good IF Neal returns to form.

Goalscoring in itself does not = winning. Neal can score 30 next year and make the team worse. The Oilers relative goal scoring last year was "okish" it's their team defense that stank. Which Neal will not help.

You make it sound like we could of just moved Lucic for zero cap back or buying him out would of been a good idea.

Your rationalized of why this is worse than keeping Lucic is kind of short sighted and shallow and makes zero sense.

Neal will be easier to move than Lucic due no causing preventing it.

Neal is cheaper to buyout than Lucic which may or may not happen but buying Neal out is still better than 6 mill of Lucic being worth less than a mill. This move is sideways at worst.

Edit: Lucic is also terrible defensively and is easily one of the slowest players in the league. We moved a bad player for a bad player that will score more.

 

[Aerchon]

You make it sound like we could of just moved Lucic for zero cap back or buying him out would of been a good idea.

Your rationalized of why this is worse than keeping Lucic is kind of short sighted and shallow and makes zero sense.

Neal will be easier to move than Lucic due no causing preventing it.

Neal is cheaper to buyout than Lucic which may or may not happen but buying Neal out is still better than 6 mill of Lucic being worth less than a mill. This move is sideways at worst.

Edit: Lucic is also terrible defensively and is easily one of the slowest players in the league. We moved a bad player for a bad player that will score more.

What I am saying is there will be no difference between Lucic and Neal on the ice most likely. Just .5 a mill off our cap flexibility.

Buyouts are stupid and shortsighted.

Trading Lucic or Neal with or without a NMC is a moot point. No one, NO ONE takes a 6mill player as their 13th forward. Which both are at this point in their career.

We only have 3 forwards worth protecting in the expansion draft. Mooooooooooooot.

The numbers and eye test suggest Lucic is better than Neal defensively.

Lucic also isn't as slow as many like to say. His straight line skating is better than Neals from what I seen last year.

Neal is slow. Very obviously very slow. Maybe that changes with a good offseason. Probably not.

Did you think we were getting a legit top 9 forward for Lucic? No we got a dud for a dud.

The only thing that makes this a wash or better is if Neal has a significant resurgence of his career. At 31... is unlikely.

Edit: Scoring goals does not = winning! Not sure how that gets even factored in anymore. We had slightly below average goaltending scoring last year and really really really bad goals against.

The team needs to improve. Neal does not improve our team on paper and the options of moving him if he continues to suck are bad as well. If slightly less bad than Lucic.

 

[CycloneSweep]

What I am saying is there will be no difference between Lucic and Neal on the ice most likely. Just .5 a mill off our cap flexibility.

Buyouts are stupid and shortsighted.

Trading Lucic or Neal with or without a NMC is a moot point. No one, NO ONE takes a 6mill player as their 13th forward. Which both are at this point in their career.

We only have 3 forwards worth protecting in the expansion draft. Mooooooooooooot.

The numbers and eye test suggest Lucic is better than Neal defensively.

Lucic also isn't as slow as many like to say. His straight line skating is better than Neals from what I seen last year.

Neal is slow. Very obviously very slow. Maybe that changes with a good offseason. Probably not.

Did you think we were getting a legit top 9 forward for Lucic? No we got a dud for a dud.

The only thing that makes this a wash or better is if Neal has a significant resurgence of his career. At 31... is unlikely.

Okay, so buyouts are dumb cause they waste cap and Lucic is dumb cause he wastes cap.

What is your solution instead? Move Lucic with numerous 1sts for future considerations?

Just keep Lucic for 4 years and waste 6 million of cap on him a year?

 

[Aerchon]

Okay, so buyouts are dumb cause they waste cap and Lucic is dumb cause he wastes cap.

What is your solution instead? Move Lucic with numerous 1sts for future considerations?

Just keep Lucic for 4 years and waste 6 million of cap on him a year?

Yes.

Pain now for gain latter.

4 years Lucic and Sekera + finally off the books.

4 years of building through the draft and development.

Then use picks, prospects, whatever to trade for cost controlled positive impact players. Maybe pick up a useful UFA. Although I am leary of that.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Yes.

Pain now for gain latter.

4 years Lucic and Sekera + finally off the books.

4 years of building through the draft and development.

Then use picks, prospects, whatever to trade for cost controlled positive impact players. Maybe pick up a useful UFA. Although I am leary of that.

Okay pain now for gain later. At worst both Lucic and Neal are 4th line players and Holland spent 500k in cap in an attempt to improve the team boo hoo

Your anger at this makes absolutely zero sense.

Before you were complaining about buying Neal out hurting prime McDavid years.

Yet now you are saying that we should be wasting prime McDavid years now?

Your anger about this makes absolutely zero sense and you are mad busy for the sake of being mad.

 

[Shathar]

Please close this dumb thread. It's existence makes us all look like idiots.

 

[Mr Positive]

Holland had almost nothing to work with in terms of space when he started and it seemed like a lot of people were chomping at the bit to blame him when he couldn't fix the team in one offseason.

His cheap depth additions were all smart ones.

Everyone was saying a Lucic trade would need a sweetener like a 1st or 2nd, or Puljujarvi. And heavy retention. I think Holland found the best alternative to that.

What's brilliant about the trade is that there is no outcome that loses. If Neal bombs, we can get 1 million of space by burying him (couldn't do that with Lucic), and the buyout is more palatable. Also the pick we have to give up if Neal scores 21 is a minor cost, and just good courtesy to the Flames, which is good GM practice

 

[Wewillrise]

Trolls don’t want the Oilers fixed, it’s the point of this thread.

 

[Aerchon]

Okay pain now for gain later. At worst both Lucic and Neal are 4th line players and Holland spent 500k in cap in an attempt to improve the team boo hoo

Your anger at this makes absolutely zero sense.

Before you were complaining about buying Neal out hurting prime McDavid years.

Yet now you are saying that we should be wasting prime McDavid years now?

Your anger about this makes absolutely zero sense and you are mad busy for the sake of being mad.

Cap management is critical.

Sekera buyout and this trade show a fix now philosophy that disregards the cap and the future.

Sick of short sighted poor management decisions.

If every manager we get keeps making these moves we will always be behind contract inflation and never be able to afford good complimentary players for a winning team.

It's not rocket science. At this rate resigning the crap team we have will be difficult.

Ugh. I just got to stop trying to explain this. It's simple straightforward math.

Which is better 17% credit card debt and the ability to spend 10k.

Or

5% line of credit and the ability to spend 5k.

Sure you can spend a whole lot more money with the credit card. Have more fun. Have lotsa crap.

Or you can save mad cash in the long run have less crap but a much higher quality of life. The chance to build a truly great team in this example.

These little "fixes" Holland is making just create issues in the future.