Should have let Nylander sit or traded him for defense.

[Walshy7]

My argument is that even the 6.96 cap hit is dramatically overpaid based on comparables.
When you add in the fact that other players/agents will view his contract as the officially listed 45/6 (7.5 aav), the contract gets embarrassing.

I still don’t understand why you care so much about other players and agents?

Our own players marner is better and was always getting more since the end of last year. Kapanen and Johnsson despite their 1 fine season aren’t close to nylander so his contract is irrelevant to them as comparable. So that leaves other teams, and I ask why do you care if other teams are forced to overpay due to nylanders contract? Are you a leaf fan or a fan of every other team in the league?

 

[RLF]

You see, that argument makes sense. Both sides use a % of the cap to pick a value and usually they round it to some even number. Sure some person may say I want that % of cap because that person got that but my 2 main things I have been saying is that his specific contract is so weird that you can't say "I want the Willy contract" and the other has been that no team should really care about the real $ given out all that should matter to the team is the cap hit. Only reason why willy got a "6 year 45 million" contract was because those 2-6 seasons will be a lower aav.
I know you know this, I also know that some players will say "I want 6 years 45 million for 7.5M cap hit", but in the end, Willys specific contract was based on cap circumvention and is hard for me to say It's a comparable. Because in terms of $ it's roughly 45 million but in terms of cap hit it's much less. I just wish I understood how the contract even worked.

I posted this earlier and this is the basis of the contract

Cap hit this year is $10.3M. Of the $10.3, only $6.96 is applied because of time missed. Kind of like being on LTIR. The only way it works out this way is because he signed for 6 years at $45M.
Basically, Willy's contract takes his $45M and reduces his take home from the time missed. Than they come up with a cap hit that would by applied to the team for 5 2/3rds seasons. The extra(portion reduced for time missed) is added to this season to get to $10.3.
His hit is $6.96 for 55 games this year and $6.96 for 82 games each season following for 5 more years.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I still don’t understand why you care so much about other players and agents?

Our own players marner is better and was always getting more since the end of last year. Kapanen and Johnsson despite their 1 fine season aren’t close to nylander so his contract is irrelevant to them as comparable. So that leaves other teams, and I ask why do you care if other teams are forced to overpay due to nylanders contract? Are you a leaf fan or a fan of every other team in the league?

Because everyone keeps telling me that "internal cap structures" are what matter most. The leafs players will use other signed leaf players as benchmarks for what they should get paid. When they do that with Nylander, they'll cite the officially listed 45 mil over 6 seasons. They won't care about the money Nylander lost for sitting out.

 

[Trapper]

How does this make any sense?
If both sides were perfectly fine with Nylander getting $41.8 mil over 6 seasons (6.96 cap hit), they would have just signed that long before the season started.

Why wait until December 1st?

Here’s how I look at it.
Some will be overpaid, some right on the money and some under.
But:
Get engaged. Battle for pucks like you have been and skate with purpose.
I don’t care then if you score 60-65 or 70 points.

Stand on the perimeter and leave now.
Same goes for the rest.

 

[Walshy7]

Because everyone keeps telling me that "internal cap structures" are what matter most. The leafs players will use other signed leaf players as benchmarks for what they should get paid. When they do that with Nylander, they'll cite the officially listed 45 mil over 6 seasons. They won't care about the money Nylander lost for sitting out.

ok kappy comes in asking too much bye bye kappy. He isn't the talent of a nylander, simple as. So again ask for more if you like but, the core got more not the depth players.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

I posted this earlier and this is the basis of the contract

Cap hit this year is $10.3M. Of the $10.3, only $6.96 is applied because of time missed. Kind of like being on LTIR. The only way it works out this way is because he signed for 6 years at $45M.
Basically, Willy's contract takes his $45M and reduces his take home from the time missed. Than they come up with a cap hit that would by applied to the team for 5 2/3rds seasons. The extra(portion reduced for time missed) is added to this season to get to $10.3.
His hit is $6.96 for 55 games this year and $6.96 for 82 games each season following for 5 more years.

Ah so they estimated what his salary would have been this year (10.3) by averaging out what he would have made if he had played the whole 82 game season and made the same per game money as he does playing for 6.96 million over 55 games?

I've reread this like 3 times and now I think it's a thought others can follow?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

ok kappy comes in asking too much bye bye kappy. He isn't the talent of a nylander, simple as. So again ask for more if you like but, the core got more not the depth players.

I don't think any leaf player will say "I specifically want the Nylander contract."
No. They'll say "If Nylander got X, then I think I deserve Y." What that "x" is, is what we're debating. I say "x" is the officially listed 45 million over 6 seasons.

 

[Mess]

I'm wondering how long or what its going to take for the GM to come to the conclusion that moving Nylander and his $7 mil cap hit from forward to defense?

Wonder if a 1st round loss will reinforce the need to improve the defense or if the Marner contract will turn on a light bulb that 4 X forwards eating up 1/2 a cap is too much investment and hurts the defense cap allotment.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

I'm wondering how long or what its going to take for the GM to come to the conclusion that moving Nylander and his $7 mil cap hit from forward to defense?

Wonder if a 1st round loss will reinforce the need to improve the defense or if the Marner contract will turn on a light bulb that 4 X forwards eating up 1/2 a cap is too much investment and hurts the defense cap allotment.

I'm more concerned that Marner's contract could hurt us more. If he wants $10m+, is he really that much of an upgrade on Nylander? I don't think so.

 

[RLF]

Ah so they estimated what his salary would have been this year (10.3) by averaging out what he would have made if he had played the whole 82 game season and made the same per game money as he does playing for 6.96 million over 55 games?

I've reread this like 3 times and now I think it's a thought others can follow?

Yes, they use the whole $45M signed for and then basically backtrack by reducing value of time missed to come up with an equal hit for all 6 seasons despite him only playing 2/3rds of this season and is why his actual hit is the same this season as the full seasons moving forward. Make sense?
This is why the $45M is actually important because the hit per season is based on it. It is not as simple as how much he actually takes home divided by 6.

 

[MyBudJT]

I'm more concerned that Marner's contract could hurt us more. If he wants $10m+, is he really that much of an upgrade on Nylander? I don't think so.

You do the think a 25+G, 100P winger whowis solid defensively is worth 3+ mil more than a 20G 60-70P winger who is average at best defensively?!?! Please explain that one...

 

[Hotel Mario]

I'm more concerned that Marner's contract could hurt us more. If he wants $10m+, is he really that much of an upgrade on Nylander? I don't think so.

Marner's production is blowing Nylander's out of the water, and represents a significant upgrade! However, as all fans, I hope the Marner is paid appropriately and desire the number to be less than $10m because team depth is a thing.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

Yes, they use the whole $45M signed for and then basically backtrack by reducing value of time missed to come up with an equal hit for all 6 seasons despite him only playing 2/3rds of this season and is why his actual hit is the same this season as the full seasons moving forward. Make sense?
This is why the $45M is actually important because the hit per season is based on it. It is not as simple as how much he actually takes home divided by 6.

But in the context of Nylander signing his contract, do you think that the Leafs were basically aiming for a 7M AAV cap hit and didn't really care about the extra cost of the contract? They clearly had more than enough room to spare before the beginning of the season. At the end of the day that's why I will always consider this contract a win for Dubas as long as Willy plays to his capability.

Also, how much money did Willy actually lose? Or does he make the full $45million still? Damn economics

 

[Trapper]

I'm wondering how long or what its going to take for the GM to come to the conclusion that moving Nylander and his $7 mil cap hit from forward to defense?

Wonder if a 1st round loss will reinforce the need to improve the defense or if the Marner contract will turn on a light bulb that 4 X forwards eating up 1/2 a cap is too much investment and hurts the defense cap allotment.

We need to see who shows up in the playoffs before any final decisions.
We don’t have a large sample size yet.

We need D for sure.
Will that be one of the 4? For me it depends on their play.

Will it be the next tier? Kadri/Kapanen/Johnsson? Again it depends on their play plus the play of the above.

Not going to move Willy if he is a playoff beast. But certainly need an internal hard look if Hyman is the best guy out there.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

You do the think a 25+G, 100P winger whowis solid defensively is worth 3+ mil more than a 20G 60-70P winger who is average at best defensively?!?! Please explain that one...

Show me a stat that proves he's better defensively? He tries hard but his natural defensive instincts seem to suck. He's great at breaking up and intercepting passes in the O-zone but seriously that's his only defensive category that he excels in. Using shot differential Tavares is #1 on the team and Willy is #2 so..?
Marner's the only player that Leaf fans completely turn a blind eye to his mistakes and glorify standard plays that he should be making because any NHL player should be making them. Dude is an elite, elite, elite Powerplay player and has wow factor that can really only be topped by Matthews. He tries harder and more consistently than basically anyone else on the team. But guys, he's average at best defensively, he's somewhere between good to great @ 5v5 (while playing with a premiere 5v5 player in Tavares), and he's a PP monster. How is he worth 10M+ a season?
Mitch>Willy but the fact that Leaf fans think its a ~3M difference is funny. Y'all really just use the eye test huh?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I posted this earlier and this is the basis of the contract

Cap hit this year is $10.3M. Of the $10.3, only $6.96 is applied because of time missed. Kind of like being on LTIR. The only way it works out this way is because he signed for 6 years at $45M.
Basically, Willy's contract takes his $45M and reduces his take home from the time missed. Than they come up with a cap hit that would by applied to the team for 5 2/3rds seasons. The extra(portion reduced for time missed) is added to this season to get to $10.3.
His hit is $6.96 for 55 games this year and $6.96 for 82 games each season following for 5 more years.

Yup contracts were structured this way to stop teams signing their players halfway through the season so that the cap hit would be prorated and reduced accordingly. Now they make sure if players sit out the biggest cap hit (for the year not pro rated) is the first year.

 

[Walshy7]

I don't think any leaf player will say "I specifically want the Nylander contract."
No. They'll say "If Nylander got X, then I think I deserve Y." What that "x" is, is what we're debating. I say "x" is the officially listed 45 million over 6 seasons.

who cares what X is though in terms of Johnsson and Kappy?
Dubas: "we will offer you Y"
Kappy: "I want x"
Dubas: "if that doesn't change here is Z, the Carolina hurricanes"

 

[thewave]

Because everyone keeps telling me that "internal cap structures" are what matter most. The leafs players will use other signed leaf players as benchmarks for what they should get paid. When they do that with Nylander, they'll cite the officially listed 45 mil over 6 seasons. They won't care about the money Nylander lost for sitting out.

This is correct, well documented.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Marner's production is blowing Nylander's out of the water, and represents a significant upgrade! However, as all fans, I hope the Marner is paid appropriately and desire the number to be less than $10m because team depth is a thing.

If Marner makes more than Kutcherov I will be really disappointed in this management.

Paying Marner more than Kutcherov would be a tragedy... Kucherov contract kicks in the same year, he is a better player and has many more UFA years sold than Marner.

There really is no justification for Marner making over 9.5 million x 8 other than the fact Matthews just got overpaid.

 

[4thline]

But in the context of Nylander signing his contract, do you think that the Leafs were basically aiming for a 7M AAV cap hit and didn't really care about the extra cost of the contract?

That's exactly it. Both parties were aware of the rules, it's not a coincidence that the agreed upon annual cap hit was 6.96.

 

[MyBudJT]

Show me a stat that proves he's better defensively? He tries hard but his natural defensive instincts seem to suck. He's great at breaking up and intercepting passes in the O-zone but seriously that's his only defensive category that he excels in. Using shot differential Tavares is #1 on the team and Willy is #2 so..?
Marner's the only player that Leaf fans completely turn a blind eye to his mistakes and glorify standard plays that he should be making because any NHL player should be making them. Dude is an elite, elite, elite Powerplay player and has wow factor that can really only be topped by Matthews. He tries harder and more consistently than basically anyone else on the team. But guys, he's average at best defensively, he's somewhere between good to great @ 5v5 (while playing with a premiere 5v5 player in Tavares), and he's a PP monster. How is he worth 10M+ a season?
Mitch>Willy but the fact that Leaf fans think its a ~3M difference is funny. Y'all really just use the eye test huh?

If Marner is not better defensively, then please explain how he has become arguably our best PKer while Nylander isn't even good enough to get a sniff at it

 

[al secord]

If Marner is not better defensively, then please explain how he has become arguably our best PKer while Nylander isn't even good enough to get a sniff at it

He will.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

If Marner is not better defensively, then please explain how he has become arguably our best PKer while Nylander isn't even good enough to get a sniff at it

Look at our style of PK and tell me if the word passive is a good descriptor of our forwards? It isn't. Our forwards are incredibly fast and aggressive. You have 3 of our fastest forwards on the PK in Brown, Marner, Kappy, and Hyman who I rank 1. Hyman 2. Marner 3. Kappy 4. Brown in terms of PK success. We send pressure right up to their net and commonly have 2 forwards attacking the puck and following the play back up the ice. Willy isn't as fast as Marner, not that close is reason #1. Reason #2 is Babs has literally never ever given Willy a shot at it because he doesn't look like he's trying his hardest every shift. Babs values hard work over instinct on the PK. Also like I said, Marner is a menace in the O-zone breaking up passes so I'd have him on my PK too. Reason #3, watch how often Marner sends a back pass during 5v5 play that gets intercepted, or how many times he takes the wrong guy going back.
If he wasn't as fast as he is and if his dad didn't instill the idea of always hauling his butt back then he'd very very clearly be bad defensively. Because he does that I say he's average at best defensively.
I have all of these reasons and remember he plays on one of the best possession player in the leagues' line in Tavares.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

who cares what X is though in terms of Johnsson and Kappy?
Dubas: "we will offer you Y"
Kappy: "I want x"
Dubas: "if that doesn't change here is Z, the Carolina hurricanes"

This is that same old inconsistency again.
I’m told time and time again that the leafs are likely to overpay their rfa’s due to the internal cap structure. Nobody ever questions this when it’s said to me.

So now I say, okay, when Nylander contract is brought up as part of that internal cap structure, they’ll cite the officially listed 45/6.

But now the response is “who cares about the internal cap structure. We’ll just trade anybody that cites it”.
Uh, ok.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

He will.

He won't ever get a shot when Babs is around. Honestly with our current forwards he probably shouldn't even though he'd probably be good.