Yes, agents care about the cap hit % when contract was signed in regards to the whole contract. Nylander's averages out to 9.5% of cap or $7.5M per season. Going forward, comparables will look at the value of 9.5% of the cap Nylander signed for.
Should have let Nylander sit or traded him for defense.
- Thread starter SwaggySpungo
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Yes, agents care about the cap hit % when contract was signed in regards to the whole contract. Nylander's averages out to 9.5% of cap or $7.5M per season. Going forward, comparables will look at the value of 9.5% of the cap Nylander signed for.
Okay and why would other agents care? Other agents want to be getting deals done regardless of what Nylander did. Maybe he's inspired a few players to sit out parts of the season but no athlete wants to take time off of their sport. RFAs in the future will not be using Nylander because he's a unique case. As a comparable it will always be players like pasta/gaudreau and then this seasons RFAs.
No player wants to lose money. Even Le'Veon Bell wanted to play for the Steelers he just didn't want to be Franchise Tagged. Money is important to these guys but getting what they're worth when they're not guarenteed longevity is what is clearly priority #1 for RFAs lately.
Every single big name RFA this year will make at minimum $45M on their contract. Not because of Willy, but because they're all potentially franchise players.
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Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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So now it’s “nobody will use Nylander as a comparable anyways”?
Uh... ok.
Is that pretty much your way of conceding the point?
There's no other contract like Willy's in the league. He has a 10+M cap his this year when the future it lowers to 6.96/seasons 2-6. You can compare and say "I want 45M/6 like Nylander" but nobody is going to wait until December to get that leverage for the contract. Nylander has a very unique contract situation where on most teams he would have gotten 7.5 without much issue so yeah I'd assume that his contract would not serve as a base for most contracts. Agents may view it as well he's getting 7.5M a season where GMs will say he's making 7M a season against the cap so there will always be that difference in value.
The middle ground on this becomes either the contract goes north of 7M/season or the contract goes for more years to achieve the financial goal.
Also there is no other player the Leafs need to sign that is in Nylander's pay grade (Marner is north of it, Kappy-Johnsson-Others are well south of it currently) so I don't care much. If other teams sign worse contracts then that's good for us.
And the factor to remember on top of all of this, any extra $ we give Nylander should not be cared about by the fans because the Leafs organization has stripped away our sanity and owes us.
Ehh since the beginning of Feb I'd heavily disagree. Before the all star break you are 100% right though.
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Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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They’ll follow his contract as OFFICIALLY listed, prior to the deductions he lost for sitting out two months. To suggest otherwise is just stubbornness on your part.
Which RFA this season do you see pointing at Willy's contract and says "I want that"? I don't think any of the top RFAs in the league are aiming that low and all of our RFAs have no right to aim that high. I just don't understand why it matters. IMO I think more RFAs are going to point at either Matthews' or Eichel's contract for their 1st big contract. Point and Aho defeinitely could get 10M+
If you go by that thinking then no one should be using Pasta as a comparable to Nylander as his contract was before last season. His comparables would have to be Ehlers 7X$6M and Larkin 5X$6.1 as they are the only 2 that have contracts that start this season. That would not help the case in favour of Nylander's contract.
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Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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We of course have no idea what contracts players/agents will use as comparables. But IF any player/agent uses Nylanders contract as a benchmark, they will be citing the number that is officially listed before deductions.
Your argument has shifted by the way. You started by saying other players/agents using Nylanders contract as a benchmark will cite the 6.96 cap hit. You've now altered your argument into "Nobody will use Nylanders contract as a comparable anyways."
Willy is absolutely beasting. He and Matthews working their old offensive cycle magic. And the offense has come back - 6P in last 5GP.
The fact is that Auston Matthews only seems to look dominant when Willy is on the ice.
The fact is that Auston Matthews only seems to look dominant when Willy is on the ice.
Nylander is a freaking beauty and will be one of the best contracts in the league in two years.
Nylander put back to Mattys wing and suddenly Matthews is looking as good as ever. You would think Matthews is the player who makes his linemates better, but in Willy's case it's the other way around.
This year, he's much more engaged physically as well. The sky is the limit for this kid.
Nylander put back to Mattys wing and suddenly Matthews is looking as good as ever. You would think Matthews is the player who makes his linemates better, but in Willy's case it's the other way around.
This year, he's much more engaged physically as well. The sky is the limit for this kid.
If any player like Rantanen, Aho, Marner, Tkachuk, Point, or any of the truly elite RFAs ask for Willy money they're getting signed immediately. Been arguing this whole time his specific situation is different because the Leafs don't care how much real $ they give him they just wanted his cap hit as low as possible. The leafs wouldn't pay Willy $45M if it was 7.5M a season against the cap. Dubas simply wasn't going to do it.
My argument this whole time has been based around Nylander having an extremely specific set of events leading up to his contract. What did we know/find out? He sat our for ~3 months. He got signed ~5 minutes before the deadline after he called Dubas and said let's do this. And he makes $7.5M aav when it comes to money paid and his cap hit is lower than that through seasons 2-6. This whole set of circumstances came from the Leafs being cap strapped for this upcoming season and needing to keep Willy's contract at the lowest possible cap hit. Like I said, the leafs do not and should not care about the real $ in dollars they give Nylander. The only number that mattered to the Leafs was the cap hit from years 2-6. Most of the teams around the league aren't in the specific situation that the Leafs are in and will be able to sign players before it becomes a whole mess like Willy's did.
If you want me to say sure, someone will say I want 7.5AAV like Willy then sure, I guess that somebody will. But as a GM I'd be like: well they actually signed him for 7M a season... if you want that $45M then we can do a 7x7 contract. I believe most GMs would have the same logic.
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The guy missed a third of the season and got payed for it. If he actually signed a $6.96M deal for 6 with the missed games the AAV for the next 5 would be closer to $6.6 so it does matter.
$6.96 x 5 = $34.8 + $4.58 x 1 = $39.38M but he will receive $42M of which $25M is in bonuses. The AAV with the missed games should have worked in the Leafs favor but they gave that away. There was no comp that supported $7M but if you decided to ignore Ehlers and use only Pasta, $7M max and pay him for when he was on the ice, not sitting in Europe. That's real cap space they gave away.
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thewave
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Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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Yes, the whole situation was complicated. Which is why other players/agents will just follow the OFFICIALLY listed 45 million over 6 seasons, prior to any deductions for sitting out.
Agree.
He gets more involed.
He wants the puck first.
He goes to the dirty areas.
Nylander ha more god given talent.
Kappy works his ass off.
I have never debated that it was signed based on how it worked it. It was done by our side because of that and don't think that is really debatable. The debate is on what is the real contract and how that compares.
Bolded-And then the agent says, No, Willy got 9.5% of the cap on avg per season with his contract. That is what I want.
so the sum total of this drivel is you think he is $360K overpaid?
You see, that argument makes sense. Both sides use a % of the cap to pick a value and usually they round it to some even number. Sure some person may say I want that % of cap because that person got that but my 2 main things I have been saying is that his specific contract is so weird that you can't say "I want the Willy contract" and the other has been that no team should really care about the real $ given out all that should matter to the team is the cap hit. Only reason why willy got a "6 year 45 million" contract was because those 2-6 seasons will be a lower aav.
I know you know this, I also know that some players will say "I want 6 years 45 million for 7.5M cap hit", but in the end, Willys specific contract was based on cap circumvention and is hard for me to say It's a comparable. Because in terms of $ it's roughly 45 million but in terms of cap hit it's much less. I just wish I understood how the contract even worked.
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Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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My argument is that even the 6.96 cap hit is dramatically overpaid based on comparables.
When you add in the fact that other players/agents will view his contract as the officially listed 45/6 (7.5 aav), the contract gets embarrassing.
Here's how I look at the contract - If, hypothetically, the agreement were made prior to the start of the season, would it have been on a $6.96M deal or $7.5M deal. The answer, to me, is obviously $6.96M, and the reason for the hold out was to get the AAV down to that range. There's no way that a contract that actually looks like $7.5M on the cap was ever going to be signed by Dubas.
We wanted him on the books for less than $7M throughout the duration of his contract and got him on the books for less than $7M throughout the duration of his contract. I really don't think the Leafs care nearly as much about these semantics as some folks around here seem to.
We wanted him on the books for less than $7M throughout the duration of his contract and got him on the books for less than $7M throughout the duration of his contract. I really don't think the Leafs care nearly as much about these semantics as some folks around here seem to.
Throw More Waffles
Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
- Oct 9, 2015
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How does this make any sense?
If both sides were perfectly fine with Nylander getting $41.8 mil over 6 seasons (6.96 cap hit), they would have just signed that long before the season started.
Why wait until December 1st?
Notsince67
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He also wasn't signed for 6 years. He was signed at 93.3% of 6 years. 7MM is 93.3% of 7.5MM in case you havent put it together yet
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