Should Doug Armstrong get fired if he can't get re-sign Pietrangelo?

Should Doug Armstrong get fired if he can't re-sign Pietrangelo?


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Celtic Note

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Ah, the era of social media. In 20 years no one will use it because they'll realize it's all clickbait.
I doubt people will stop using it. I just hope it starts getting used intelligently... putting that on the low end of my hope meter.

I would rather not have social media at this point, but some of it can be really useful. If Facebook and Twitter disappeared, I would wager we collectively have better lives.
 

EXTRAS

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Jul 31, 2012
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Weird question: is there a minimum amount you're allowed to pay coaches/gms?

Like could an nhl owner find his own no-name gm and give him 50k/year?
 

MissouriMook

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Weird question: is there a minimum amount you're allowed to pay coaches/gms?

Like could an nhl owner find his own no-name gm and give him 50k/year?
Dude, I could probably get Melnyk to hire you for $100K, but I'll need my 15% off the top.
 

quityerwhinin

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Feb 9, 2017
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I agree. Petro deserves a fair contract and that includes guarantees.

And yes I'm also getting tired of this soap opera and just want it to end.

Why does he "deserve" the guarantees? Pietrangelo shouldn't be surprised the organization has said "no" (at least to this point). They've made no secret it's something they don't do. Armstrong hasn't changed his stance or suddenly gone in a different direction with #27 than he has other players. Pietrangelo has known the organization's position on this for as long as he's been here. If he's sincere about wanting to be here, the issue of bonus money is something they could have/should have addressed waaaaaaaay before now.
 

BlueKnight

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Why does he "deserve" the guarantees? Pietrangelo shouldn't be surprised the organization has said "no" (at least to this point). They've made no secret it's something they don't do. Armstrong hasn't changed his stance or suddenly gone in a different direction with #27 than he has other players. Pietrangelo has known the organization's position on this for as long as he's been here. If he's sincere about wanting to be here, the issue of bonus money is something they could have/should have addressed waaaaaaaay before now.
Pietrangelo is a homegrown top 5 defenceman and a Stanley Cup winning team captain he has earned the right t0 what ever guarantees he wants.

And I understand what you are saying about the organization's position on it. I just don’t like the team/Army's stance on these issues for a competitive standpoint in that it puts us at a disadvantage to teams that do them, even occasionally. I’m just as disappointed because I think it is a bit hypocritical that they won’t sign a contract with those elements but they will trade for one. ROR's contract is mostly signing bonuses, and the Blues agreed to take that contract on the very same day the signing bonus was due.

What I'm trying to say is, Can't sign the captain because he wants a bonus. But are willing to trade for player who has one and agreed to pay it. It just doesn't look good in my eyes.
 

Blueston

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Pietrangelo is a homegrown top 5 defenceman and a Stanley Cup winning team captain he has earned the right t0 what ever guarantees he wants.

And I understand what you are saying about the organization's position on it. I just don’t like the team/Army's stance on these issues for a competitive standpoint in that it puts us at a disadvantage to teams that do them, even occasionally. I’m just as disappointed because I think it is a bit hypocritical that they won’t sign a contract with those elements but they will trade for one. ROR's contract is mostly signing bonuses, and the Blues agreed to take that contract on the very same day the signing bonus was due.

What I'm trying to say is, Can't sign the captain because he wants a bonus. But are willing to trade for player who has one and agreed to pay it. It just doesn't look good in my eyes.
The issue isn’t really about whether we will pay a bonus. The issue is bonuses on back end of contract make it buyout proof. Combine that with NMC in those declining years and is real problem.
 
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quityerwhinin

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Feb 9, 2017
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Pietrangelo is a homegrown top 5 defenceman and a Stanley Cup winning team captain he has earned the right t0 what ever guarantees he wants.

And I understand what you are saying about the organization's position on it. I just don’t like the team/Army's stance on these issues for a competitive standpoint in that it puts us at a disadvantage to teams that do them, even occasionally. I’m just as disappointed because I think it is a bit hypocritical that they won’t sign a contract with those elements but they will trade for one. ROR's contract is mostly signing bonuses, and the Blues agreed to take that contract on the very same day the signing bonus was due.

What I'm trying to say is, Can't sign the captain because he wants a bonus. But are willing to trade for player who has one and agreed to pay it. It just doesn't look good in my eyes.

This is the exact philosophy that gets organizations in trouble. "Well, so-and-so has been great, so let's give them whatever they want." Then a few years down the line, you realize you're stuck with an unmovable contract that is preventing the team from being better.
 
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mike1320

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I think a lot of you need to take a step back and realize that you have no idea what’s going on in these negotiations. Calling for Stillman to get involved is a huge overreaction. This entire premise that the deal isn’t done just because Armstrong and the agent aren’t getting along is a gigantic assumption to make. You don’t have the facts and all these threads are getting kind of embarrassing to read.
44b56a3ffc7de9f23b2fb461165e9d62.gif


I also cannot believe that people are ready to go in to a full blown rebuild if Petro walks. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here, and that's really saying something.
 
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Linkens Mastery

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I also cannot believe that people are ready to go in to a full blown rebuild if Petro walks. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here, and that's really saying something.
If Pietrangelo walks I see the Blues picking up one (maybe 2 if Army is feeling spicy like the back to back Bozak/RoR deals) top 4 LHD from FA or a trade. I also don't see Dunn being here next season and Mikkola getting bumped into the NHL.
 

EastonBlues22

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This is the exact philosophy that gets organizations in trouble. "Well, so-and-so has been great, so let's give them whatever they want." Then a few years down the line, you realize you're stuck with an unmovable contract that is preventing the team from being better.
There is a difference between giving what a player wants, and what a player has earned. I think many, including likely Pietrangelo, feel that he's earned the right to finish his next contract wherever he signs it without having to worry about being moved (along with his young family) at some point during it.

If comparable players have received that in their contracts and/or the open market will provide it now, then to is a perfectly reasonable contract demand.

The Blues are past the point where they get to have their cake and eat it, too. You don't get to attract or retain players like Pietrangelo at this point in their careers without taking on significant contractual risk. So you either aren't legitimately in the market for those players, or you put in your due dilligence and take the best risks you can.

I have yet to see any sort of compelling argument that Pietrangelo is a bad risk to take, and that handing him the contract he wants/deserves is likely to do the franchise more harm than good. I've seen a number of arguments that he's a good risk to take, and it's obvious that losing him does the organization significant immediate harm.

To use a poor analogy with made up numbers, if you have a 70% chance of winning the next lottery you enter, but you have never bought a ticket before, it is likely not the time to stand on precedent. Being overly risk averse to the point where you don't even take good risks because other organizations have screwed up in the past isn't a great path to organizational success, either.

There is plenty here to judge this situation on its own merits, and IMO the Blues are much better off coming out of this giving Pietrangelo what he wants (which doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me) than they are coming out of this without Pietrangelo.
 

blues80

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Dec 10, 2018
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There is a difference between giving what a player wants, and what a player has earned. I think many, including likely Pietrangelo, feel that he's earned the right to finish his next contract wherever he signs it without having to worry about being moved (along with his young family) at some point during it.

If comparable players have received that in their contracts and/or the open market will provide it now, then to is a perfectly reasonable contract demand.

The Blues are past the point where they get to have their cake and eat it, too. You don't get to attract or retain players like Pietrangelo at this point in their careers without taking on significant contractual risk. So you either aren't legitimately in the market for those players, or you put in your due dilligence and take the best risks you can.

I have yet to see any sort of compelling argument that Pietrangelo is a bad risk to take, and that handing him the contract he wants/deserves is likely to do the franchise more harm than good. I've seen a number of arguments that he's a good risk to take, and it's obvious that losing him does the organization significant immediate harm.

To use a poor analogy with made up numbers, if you have a 70% chance of winning the next lottery you enter, but you have never bought a ticket before, it is likely not the time to stand on precedent. Being overly risk averse to the point where you don't even take good risks because other organizations have screwed up in the past isn't a great path to organizational success, either.

There is plenty here to judge this situation on its own merits, and IMO the Blues are much better off coming out of this giving Pietrangelo what he wants (which doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me) than they are coming out of this without Pietrangelo.
Do u think armstong will give it too him
 

quityerwhinin

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Feb 9, 2017
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There is a difference between giving what a player wants, and what a player has earned. I think many, including likely Pietrangelo, feel that he's earned the right to finish his next contract wherever he signs it without having to worry about being moved (along with his young family) at some point during it.

If comparable players have received that in their contracts and/or the open market will provide it now, then to is a perfectly reasonable contract demand.

The Blues are past the point where they get to have their cake and eat it, too. You don't get to attract or retain players like Pietrangelo at this point in their careers without taking on significant contractual risk. So you either aren't legitimately in the market for those players, or you put in your due dilligence and take the best risks you can.

I have yet to see any sort of compelling argument that Pietrangelo is a bad risk to take, and that handing him the contract he wants/deserves is likely to do the franchise more harm than good. I've seen a number of arguments that he's a good risk to take, and it's obvious that losing him does the organization significant immediate harm.

To use a poor analogy with made up numbers, if you have a 70% chance of winning the next lottery you enter, but you have never bought a ticket before, it is likely not the time to stand on precedent. Being overly risk averse to the point where you don't even take good risks because other organizations have screwed up in the past isn't a great path to organizational success, either.

There is plenty here to judge this situation on its own merits, and IMO the Blues are much better off coming out of this giving Pietrangelo what he wants (which doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me) than they are coming out of this without Pietrangelo.

He hasn't earned the right to play where he wants, no questions asked, for the next 8 years. That's just not an intelligent way to operate a franchise.

The Blues have been upfront they don't offer bonus money. I don't totally blame him for asking, but I also don't see a 31 year old defenseman as being the guy you make an exception for. If you're going to change how the org functions, make it for a younger player who's best hockey is ahead of him.

I like the guy, and hope he resigns because we're better with him, I just don't see him as a player you have to sign at any cost in a salary cap world.
 

EastonBlues22

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He hasn't earned the right to play where he wants, no questions asked, for the next 8 years. That's just not an intelligent way to operate a franchise.

The Blues have been upfront they don't offer bonus money. I don't totally blame him for asking, but I also don't see a 31 year old defenseman as being the guy you make an exception for. If you're going to change how the org functions, make it for a younger player who's best hockey is ahead of him.

I like the guy, and hope he resigns because we're better with him, I just don't see him as a player you have to sign at any cost in a salary cap world.
If you look at the list of 21 defensemen who have NMC contracts, it suggests that yes, he has in fact earned one. A significant number of his peers by performance at his position have one. He can likely land one on the open market. In your opinion it may not be an intelligent way to run a franchise, but that opinion has no bearing on whether or not it is fair for him to ask for that. It's a completely reasonable contract demand.

I don't have any problem with him asking for signing bonus money, either. The last CBA negotiation cycle the league locked out the players, which resulted in lost wages and more pressure on the players to cave to the owners' demands. This CBA expires in just a few years, and it's entirely possible the owners will do the same thing again. Signing bonuses are the players insurance against that negotiating tactic. They're not asking for more money, they're just asking for a guarantee they'll be paid the money the franchise is agreeing to pay them. I have zero sympathy for the owners on this issue, and if the Blues won't give him signing bonus money, then someone else likely will.

Younger players don't get to ask for these things because of how the CBA is set up to benefit owners over players during the first half of the careers. Players have almost zero leverage in their first several contracts, and even arbitration is set up to artificially depress their earnings below what they could get on the open market. Very few players who sign their first big deal after those early cost controlled ones get those bonuses and perks, either. The players get the first real financial and job security of their careers, but it comes at the expense of hitting the open market as those deals usually cover the last few years of team control and a number of the players prime UFA years. Forgoing that contract means playing for a lower wage during your last team controlled years, and risking some sort of career impacting injury. Tough to do when you've been earning pennies on the dollar for the first 5-7 years of your career and you have financial security staring you in the face. Organizations use that leverage to the fullest, and have little need to hand out NMCs or signing bonuses at that stage.

It's only for this last major UFA deal that most (really good) players have the sort of leverage to ask for those things, and so that's when teams are finally forced to hand them out. It's not optimal for organizations at that point, but that's just too darn bad. The CBA gives them the better end of the stick over players for the majority of most players prime years. If you want to benefit from the second half of those careers, you have to pay what the market will bear for their services.

You can argue that those players aren't "worth" it, but they're supposed to be paid a premium for their services at that point in their careers. Good organizations balance out those expected cap burdens by managing their caps well elsewhere (drafting good young talent, signing good deals while players are under team control, and not handing out bad contracts to marginal players). It's incredibly difficult for a team to be competitive if they won't hand out open market value contracts to elite players at key positions.
 

mike1320

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He hasn't earned the right to play where he wants, no questions asked, for the next 8 years. That's just not an intelligent way to operate a franchise.

The Blues have been upfront they don't offer bonus money. I don't totally blame him for asking, but I also don't see a 31 year old defenseman as being the guy you make an exception for. If you're going to change how the org functions, make it for a younger player who's best hockey is ahead of him.

I like the guy, and hope he resigns because we're better with him, I just don't see him as a player you have to sign at any cost in a salary cap world.
People acting like he's the second coming of Gretzky, and he was the sole reason for us winning a Cup. He's going to sign a bloated contract like Karlsson received and that contract will weigh down the team like a boat anchor. There's not a player in the league that's worth $10 million a year in a flat salary cap era.
 
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EastonBlues22

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People acting like he's the second coming of Gretzky, and he was the sole reason for us winning a Cup. He's going to sign a bloated contract like Karlsson received and that contract will weigh down the team like a boat anchor. There's not a player in the league that's worth $10 million a year in a flat salary cap era.
So much hyperbole crammed into such a short post.
 

EastonBlues22

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Petro played a part in us finally winning a championship, but he wasn't the sole reason we finally made it. Berube, Binnington, JayBo and the rest of the d-men playing out of their minds were equally responsible.
I don't see anyone claiming that he's a Gretzky level talent, or that he was the sole reason the Blues won the Cup. He's not asking for anywhere near $10 million, and it's a pretty pessimistic opinion to believe that the contract will be a boat anchor anytime soon.

Are you of the opinion that he's not one of the better players at his position, or that he didn't play a significant role in the team winning the Cup? That's the sort of thing I see being said about him, and I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to believe either one of those things.
 

mike1320

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I don't see anyone claiming that he's a Gretzky level talent, or that he was the sole reason the Blues won the Cup. He's not asking for anywhere near $10 million, and it's a pretty pessimistic opinion to believe that the contract will be a boat anchor anytime soon.

Are you of the opinion that he's not one of the better players at his position, or that he didn't play a significant role in the team winning the Cup? That's the sort of thing I see being said about him, and I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to believe either one of those things.
I personally think turning down $8 million per year for 8 years during very uncertain times is bonkers. I'd like to believe this is more to do with his agent, and not Petro himself.

He is indeed one of the better players at his position, however massive contracts rarely pan out in a salary cap situation. If you have to pay one player upwards of 1/8th of your entire payroll it's really difficult to build a balanced team.

Everything is based on speculation at this point, and my thoughts are that his agent thinks he should be the highest paid d-man in the league.
 

EastonBlues22

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I personally think turning down $8 million per year for 8 years during very uncertain times is bonkers. I'd like to believe this is more to do with his agent, and not Petro himself.

He is indeed one of the better players at his position, however massive contracts rarely pan out in a salary cap situation. If you have to pay one player upwards of 1/8th of your entire payroll it's really difficult to build a balanced team.

Everything is based on speculation at this point, and my thoughts are that his agent thinks he should be the highest paid d-man in the league.
Why is it bonkers? He's hardly financially destitute, and there's zero doubt that he's going to get paid this offseason regardless of whether he takes the Blues offer or not. There's essentially nothing unique or compelling about the Blues offer beyond the 8th year.

It doesn't really sound like the money being offered is a big problem, so I'm not sure where that is coming from. What it sounds like Pietrangelo is saying is that he values the ability to control where he lives (i.e. he wants an NMC), and that he wants some amount of his salary in the form of a signing bonus (a hedge against a CBA lockout, and potentially also saves him money on escrow depending on when he receives it), more than he values that 8th year. Given that he has a young family that will see kids beginning school during this next deal, and the other financial implications based on what form his money takes, I don't blame him one bit.

You say contracts like this "rarely" pan out, but there are plenty of teams that have won Cups with massive contracts on the books with the players on those contracts being key contributors. Tampa Bay or Dallas will do it this year, the Capitals did in 2018, the Penguins did it in 2017 and 2016, the Kings in 2014, etc.

It's rare that any big contract is a "good" value every single year of the deal, but there's plenty of evidence that you can have one (or often more) such contract on the books and win a championship. I'd say the historical evidence suggests that it's probably harder to win a championship without one or more such contracts on the books.
 
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mike1320

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Why is it bonkers? He's hardly financially destitute, and there's zero doubt that he's going to get paid this offseason regardless of whether he takes the Blues offer or not. There's essentially nothing unique or compelling about the Blues offer beyond the 8th year.

It doesn't really sound like the money being offered is a big problem, so I'm not sure where that is coming from. What it sounds like Pietrangelo is saying is that he values the ability to control where he lives (i.e. he wants an NMC), and that he wants some amount of his salary in the form of a signing bonus (a hedge against a CBA lockout, and potentially also saves him money on escrow depending on when he receives it), more than he values that 8th year. Given that he has a young family that will see kids beginning school during this next deal, and the other financial implications based on what form his money takes, I don't blame him one bit.

You say contracts like this "rarely" pan out, but there are plenty of teams that have won Cups with massive contracts on the books with the players on those contracts being key contributors. Tampa Bay or Dallas will do it this year, the Capitals did in 2018, the Penguins did it in 2017 and 2016, the Kings in 2014, etc.

It's rare that any big contract is a "good" value every single year of the deal, but there's plenty of evidence that you can have one (or often more) such contract on the books and win a championship. I'd say the historical evidence suggests that it's probably harder to win a championship without one or more such contracts on the books.
Once again, everything is just speculation at this point. If the team values his services and truly believes that he is the main cog in delivering another championship, and Petro really has a desire to stay here to raise his family I'm sure they'll work something out.

If they don't offer a NTC/NMC I'm sure he'll have the means to keep his family here while he travels during the season. He wouldn't be the first professional athlete to live and play in separate cities.
 

EastonBlues22

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Once again, everything is just speculation at this point. If the team values his services and truly believes that he is the main cog in delivering another championship, and Petro really has a desire to stay here to raise his family I'm sure they'll work something out.

If they don't offer a NTC/NMC I'm sure he'll have the means to keep his family here while he travels during the season. He wouldn't be the first professional athlete to live and play in separate cities.
Just because others have done it doesn't mean that he wants to do it, or that he should even have to consider it at this point in his career. In my experience, most family men aren't that cavalier about living in a different city from their family, or about uprooting their family and moving them. It's something most would do with hesitation, if at all, and usually only with some significant incentive.

Again, a NMC is far from an unreasonable ask for Pietrangelo. I think it's more unreasonable for the Blues to withhold it, based on historical precedence and what the market would bear, if they actually want to keep him.
 
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mike1320

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Just because others have done it doesn't mean that he wants to do it, or that he should even have to consider it at this point in his career. In my experience, most family men aren't that cavalier about living in a different city from their family, or about uprooting their family and moving them. It's something most would do with hesitation, if at all, and usually only with some significant incentive.

Again, a NMC is far from an unreasonable ask for Pietrangelo. I think it's more unreasonable for the Blues to withhold it, based on historical precedence and what the market would bear, if they actually want to keep him.
Agree to disagree. If they offer him $8+ million a year for 8 years without a NMC I think that's fair enough, considering that we have absolutely no idea what the landscape of professional sports will look like in the future thanks to COVID.
 

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