Should Doug Armstrong get fired if he can't get re-sign Pietrangelo?

Should Doug Armstrong get fired if he can't re-sign Pietrangelo?


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mk80

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I don't think not getting Petro signed is a sole cause for firing Armstrong. Especially while we're already trying to fill an opening for Assistant GM, but even without that.

While we can say and point to instances in the Petro negotiations that could be Armstrong's fault, a negotiation is a 2 way street, and we will never know enough to fully place the blame on him.

Now we should fully and analyze and make a decision based on the how Armstrong builds the team from that moment, he could find ways to continue building a contender, or maybe his magic runs out and the team goes into the toilet. Without Petro we certainly have some gaps to fill, and a bare cupboard of prospects as a result of our success and low draft positions, but right now I'm more confident with Armstrong as an experienced GM who knows our situation addressing those, than bringing in someone from the outside. If he fails in those areas, that's when we should start having a conversation about letting him go.
 
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quityerwhinin

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Feb 9, 2017
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We aren't fine if Pietro walks. Team will become mediocre at defensively. Pietro is top5 RHD in the NHL. Not having that type of player on your team will significantly lowers the default value of our team and result expectation. Ofc we can short sample size perform well, but in bigger picture missing Pietro has significant affect our team success.

I assume Blues will become bubble team and at highest 1st round exit team if Pietro walks, worse case scenario Blues becomes central bottom team for next 10-15 years.

Good grief, save the drama. The team will be fine. Will they take a step back? Possibly/probably, but they aren't going to fall to the bottom of the Central for the next decade. They'll still have a good defense. Parayko will continue to take on the other team's top lines, like he has the last two seasons. If Binnington returns to form, the team will still have success.
 

EastonBlues22

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@EastonBlues22 can you open up your mind about this Pietro walking away and does it have affect on our team? Really like to hear your opinion about this case.
Of course it is devastating for the team if Pietrangelo isn't re-signed. They simply aren't a contender without him, and there's no easy path back to becoming one.

It will take more than that to get Armstrong fired, though.

Personally, I don't get the logic of drawing a hard line in the sand over one contract particular or another, ostensibly to avoid setting a precedent or creating a situation that might potentially handicap the team at some nebulous point in the future, if the end result of making that stand is that you lose a player that immediately and irrevocably handicaps your current team for the foreseeable future.

I also don't get the logic of alienating one of those rare home grown players who is a world class player at his position, who played a huge role in the team finally winning its first championship ever, and who is heavily invested in the community and actively wants to stay here. That's a unicorn in the sports world, and exactly the sort of player that a team should consider making exceptions for to cement a permanent relationship (for better or worse). Driving off that sort of player when they want to stay, because you won't offer on principle what (I believe) he has earned and he could fairly easily get on the open market, is simply not a good look for the franchise. What sort of message does it send to other members of the team, and to other players the team might eventually court, if they can't make things work in a situation like that?
 

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Of course it is devastating for the team if Pietrangelo isn't re-signed. They simply aren't a contender without him, and there's no easy path back to becoming one.

It will take more than that to get Armstrong fired, though.

Personally, I don't get the logic of drawing a hard line in the sand over one contract particular or another, ostensibly to avoid setting a precedent or creating a situation that might potentially handicap the team at some nebulous point in the future, if the end result of making that stand is that you lose a player that immediately and irrevocably handicaps your current team for the foreseeable future.

I also don't get the logic of alienating one of those rare home grown players who is a world class player at his position, who played a huge role in the team finally winning its first championship ever, and who is heavily invested in the community and actively wants to stay here. That's a unicorn in the sports world, and exactly the sort of player that a team should consider making exceptions for to cement a permanent relationship (for better or worse). Driving off that sort of player when they want to stay, because you won't offer on principle what (I believe) he has earned and he could fairly easily get on the open market, is simply not a good look for the franchise. What sort of message does it send to other members of the team, and to other players the team might eventually court, if they can't make things work in a situation like that?
There is a lot of talk out there. Are you assuming that Army drew line in sand on NMC or bonuses? Strick says that ain't true. Petro didn't allege it. Sounds like we offered 8 x 8 but Petro and Newport want more. That is huge money in flat cap era. What would you have us do? Can't just give him blank check, particularly when last few years of an 8-year extension likely to be brutal.
 
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BlueKnight

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Of course it is devastating for the team if Pietrangelo isn't re-signed. They simply aren't a contender without him, and there's no easy path back to becoming one.

It will take more than that to get Armstrong fired, though.

Personally, I don't get the logic of drawing a hard line in the sand over one contract particular or another, ostensibly to avoid setting a precedent or creating a situation that might potentially handicap the team at some nebulous point in the future, if the end result of making that stand is that you lose a player that immediately and irrevocably handicaps your current team for the foreseeable future.

I also don't get the logic of alienating one of those rare home grown players who is a world class player at his position, who played a huge role in the team finally winning its first championship ever, and who is heavily invested in the community and actively wants to stay here. That's a unicorn in the sports world, and exactly the sort of player that a team should consider making exceptions for to cement a permanent relationship (for better or worse). Driving off that sort of player when they want to stay, because you won't offer on principle what (I believe) he has earned and he could fairly easily get on the open market, is simply not a good look for the franchise. What sort of message does it send to other members of the team, and to other players the team might eventually court, if they can't make things work in a situation like that?
Well said. I wish i could like this more than once.
 

EastonBlues22

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There is a lot of talk out there. Are you assuming that Army drew line in sand on NMC or bonuses? Strick says that ain't true. Petro didn't allege it. Sounds like we offered 8 x 8 but Petro and Newport want more. That is huge money in flat cap era. What would you have us do? Can't just give him blank check, particularly when last few years of an 8-year extension likely to be brutal.
I feel like if the number is the only sticking point, then this would be done already...or at the very least, there wouldn't be the sort of impasse that we're getting the feeling that there is. There's clearly some sort of line in the sand right now, whatever it might be.

If that's just posturing from the negotiators involved and there's no real line in the sand, which I tend to doubt, then it's stupid. It's clearly alienating, or at least bewildering, someone that clearly expected negotiation process to be a lot less contentious. If you're just going to cave/compromise eventually, then cut the BS and preserve the good will in the relationship (not to mention with the rest of the team, and the fans, etc.).

I've already said that I'd just hand Pietrangelo whatever number he thinks is fair if given assurances the he's here for good. He isn't being mean spirited about it, but he has the team over a barrel. They need him far more than he needs them, and what's more he's earned it (and then some). There's no one else like him on the market. The only real leverage the Blues have is guilt ("You're throwing away your legacy!"; "Do you really want to uproot your family?"; "Do you really want to walk away from everything we've created together?"; "If you really want to be here, you'll accept this offer because what you want is something that we just can't do."), because someone will give him a contract that makes him happy. The Blues need him to have any real hope of fielding a viable contender next year...and probably for multiple years after that, barring a miracle.

As an aside, leveraging Pietrangelo's desire to be here against him to try to get him to make concessions that he shouldn't have to make is a hostile tactic, but it's really the only card that Armtrong has to play, and I get the feeling that he's playing it...and I think it's making a huge mess out of everything. Using someone's good will as a weapon against them in an attempt to give up something that they're rightfully earned is a pretty ***** thing to do. You don't do something like that to someone that you value and respect, and that you want to continue to have around. Or you shouldn't, at least, if you have any sense at all. You are actively poisoning your own well by using the good will that others have for you against them in such an obviously self-serving way.

Anyway, we know there's nothing beyond their control that is preventing the Blues from making it work. Pietrangelo wants (or at least wanted) to be here. The Blues can make the numbers work. Any other stumbling blocks are completely self-imposed or arbitrary. They just need to suck it up and do it. You make room for him however you need to, enjoy whatever productive years he can give you, hopefully cash in with a few more deep playoff runs, then deal with whatever fallout there is (if any) down the road. Not getting something done because you're worried years 6-8 *might* be a burden for the franchise, thus virtually guaranteeing a massive burden for the franchise immediately, is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Even if the last few years are a burden, you're still getting *some* benefit those years because a guy who would likely be getting his number retired by the Blues in that scenario will retire as a career Blue. People can forgive a few lean years if there is nostalgia to sustain them, and that's the sort of story that drips nostalgia. St. Louis fans would eat that up. They love loyalty and home town heroes (he might not have been born here, but Pietrangelo married into the community). That sort of story has real, tangible, value to the Blues organization.
 
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BlueKnight

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I agree with what Easton said above. I just want to add this.

I remember hearing Elliotte Friedman making a remark about Army not wanting to admit he signs bad deals and making things personal. Imagine having such a beef with an agent because you don't like dealing with them and turn negotiations personal and ruin the professional and personal relationship with your best player and captain.

Army does not like to be aggressively challenged. Hence the move/message to Petro and his agent that started with the Faulk trade and extension through with Scandella. No urgency to sign deals with Newport. He rewarded Schenn for leaving Newport.

Obviously the professional relationship between between Army and Petro is getting strained, Which explains some
some insider reports I've seen that having Petro appeal to Stillman directly.
 

simon IC

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I agree with what Easton said above. I just want to add this.

I remember hearing Elliotte Friedman making a remark about Army not wanting to admit he signs bad deals and making things personal. Imagine having such a beef with an agent because you don't like dealing with them and turn negotiations personal and ruin the professional and personal relationship with your best player and captain.

Army does not like to be aggressively challenged. Hence the move/message to Petro and his agent that started with the Faulk trade and extension through with Scandella. No urgency to sign deals with Newport. He rewarded Schenn for leaving Newport.

Obviously the professional relationship between between Army and Petro is getting strained, Which explains some
some insider reports I've seen that having Petro appeal to Stillman directly.
Lol, the bolded is hilarious in light of the Faulk extension.
 

GoldenSeal

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What is Army’s rationale for not signing his SC winning top 5 Offensive DMAN while signing everyone else and giving out raises knowing he wouldn’t have the money to sign Pie?

Unless Pie wanted to wait it out he should have been signed and paid before ANYONE else unless someone wants to explain why And how Faulk is worth The extension he got.

I’m not on the fire Army side yet because it’s a Blues-as-fk thing to screw up a nobrainer signing like Pie. I want the whole story first before I start trash talking Army.
 
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MU_Beerman

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I think it's pretty clear what strick said today is true. Last summer Newport wanted 10, they've tempered it to 9, a NMC and a bunch of bonus $. The Blues are @ 8, will probably take one more swing @ 8.5, and Petro will have a chance to show his quality. Why would Army's job be in danger?

Petro has played hardball from the first extension, hence the Faulk deal. That never made this any more difficult on the inside, but it sure had to appear to. Tarasenko gave them an easy way out, but the message was sent. If Petro couldn't take hearing, "you're not Roman Josi" then he's not as tough as I thought.
 
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BleedBlue14

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I don’t think you can leverage a managers job based on a UFA contract. Granted this one certainly has taken a muddy turn.

I’m still unsure of the unwillingness to fork out a fairly reasonable ask to Pietro given his history with us and him captaining us to our first franchise cup.

One thing is for certain though, I’m going to really enjoy hearing the excuses come through and what exactly they are if Pietro signs anywhere else for less than 9. Term hasn’t been an issue recently given the Faulk and Schenn extensions, can’t really complain about not wanting to sign a guy to years past his prime.
 
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Frenzy31

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Let me ask everyone here quick question: If prior to winning the cup last year, I asked you if the Blues win the cup would you be willing to have a mediocre team for the next 5-7 years?

I think most fans would have said yes. We won the cup. I am pretty happy still, have some great memories and moments.... I would love to win another and be in contention for the next 5 years, but... I can go into a rebuild.

Does it stink that AP may leave? - yes, but he has earned the right to get paid and set his family up.
 
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Celtic Note

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Let me ask everyone here quick question: If prior to winning the cup last year, I asked you if the Blues win the cup would you be willing to have a mediocre team for the next 5-7 years?

I think most fans would have said yes. We won the cup. I am pretty happy still, have some great memories and moments.... I would love to win another and be in contention for the next 5 years, but... I can go into a rebuild.

Does it stink that AP may leave? - yes, but he has earned the right to get paid and set his family up.
I would rather us do what we need to win another Cup. If that means rebuild? So be it. I too can live off the fond memories of winning the Cup.

Our last rebuild wasn’t so bad for me. I probably watched +95% of the games. It was fun to watch our prospects grow.

But, I think only the diehard fans were there through those times. I doubt ownership would be excited about that direction and I am not sure Army would be either.
 
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BlueKnight

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I posted this in another thread but I'll post it here as it's more relevant here.

I think Armys ego it getting in the way here I think that's why we are at this point, With Petro the window is open for the next 5 years. Petro leaves Blues are toast might as sell and start a rebuild but i doubt Stillman would like that. Army needs to suck it up, Put his ego away give Petro his no movement and a little bonus money and call it a day or what i said above will happen and he should be rightfully fired.
 

MissouriMook

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I posted this in another thread but I'll post it here as it's more relevant here.

I think Armys ego it getting in the way here I think that's why we are at this point, With Petro the window is open for the next 5 years. Petro leaves Blues are toast might as sell and start a rebuild but i doubt Stillman would like that. Army needs to suck it up, Put his ego away give Petro his no movement and a little bonus money and call it a day or what i said above will happen and he should be rightfully fired.
I still believe there is plenty of blame on both sides. I doubt Army gets fired if they can't work out a deal, just as I don't think Petro will fire Meehan over it. I do think, as I mentioned elsewhere, that the time has come for Stillman to step in and see if he can mediate the situation by finding out what Petro really wants.
 
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BlueKnight

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I still believe there is plenty of blame on both sides. I doubt Army gets fired if they can't work out a deal, just as I don't think Petro will fire Meehan over it. I do think, as I mentioned elsewhere, that the time has come for Stillman to step in and see if he can mediate the situation by finding out what Petro really wants.

I've seen some insider reports saying that Petro should go to Stillman to get this resolved.
 

GoldenSeal

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Let me ask everyone here quick question: If prior to winning the cup last year, I asked you if the Blues win the cup would you be willing to have a mediocre team for the next 5-7 years?

I think most fans would have said yes. We won the cup. I am pretty happy still, have some great memories and moments.... I would love to win another and be in contention for the next 5 years, but... I can go into a rebuild.

Does it stink that AP may leave? - yes, but he has earned the right to get paid and set his family up.

Blues would have several Cups by now if they weren’t so mismanaged when they had all the pieces. You pay for quality and Pie is worth 9m. You got a cup and a legit contender now, you don’t sign and give raises to cheap, unproven, lesser pieces, you pay your guns, that’s how dynasties are made.
 
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GoldenSeal

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I've seen some insider reports saying that Petro should go to Stillman to get this resolved.

He should. Put the Cup on the table while wearing your sweater with the C on it and ask why is Faulk worth so much and I ain’t worth what, 2-3m more? Idiocy of the highest level. Keep the damn team together.
 
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Alklha

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I've seen some insider reports saying that Petro should go to Stillman to get this resolved.
If Pietrangelo tried that then I would hope that Stillman shuts it down immediately. Encourage him to contact Armstrong directly, not through his agent, and have a discussion. Otherwise, Stillman should simply be saying this is what we pay Doug Armstrong for.

The extend of the involvement of ownership should be telling Armstrong what the organisation is comfortable with in terms of signing bonuses, and (if it's okay) then they should be offered if they need to be offered.

Ownership shouldn't undermine the GM and the GM shouldn't undermine the coach. Start going down that road and it rarely ends well.
 

tfriede2

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If Pietrangelo tried that then I would hope that Stillman shuts it down immediately. Encourage him to contact Armstrong directly, not through his agent, and have a discussion. Otherwise, Stillman should simply be saying this is what we pay Doug Armstrong for.

The extend of the involvement of ownership should be telling Armstrong what the organisation is comfortable with in terms of signing bonuses, and (if it's okay) then they should be offered if they need to be offered.

Ownership shouldn't undermine the GM and the GM shouldn't undermine the coach. Start going down that road and it rarely ends well.
Exactly. I have to believe that DA has kept Stillman in the loop on these negotiations, and Stillman has let DA know what the team can and cannot afford. Perhaps Stillman might tell DA what he must accept from Newport to get a deal done, but I’ll assume he’s simply letting DA do his job.
 
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Blueston

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Exactly. I have to believe that DA has kept Stillman in the loop on these negotiations, and Stillman has let DA know what the team can and cannot afford. Perhaps Stillman might tell DA what he must accept from Newport to get a deal done, but I’ll assume he’s simply letting DA do his job.
For player who has meant so much to franchise a gm would always keep owner in loop and solicit feedback. DA lays out strategy here but would be naive to think that Stillman ain't on board with his approach.
 

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