Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[Dekes For Days]

Data is only relevant when comparing teams within a division.

Not true at all.

 

[Pookie]

Not true at all.

well all the best with your “numberology.”

you and the guys have fun with that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

well all the best with your “numberology.”

"Numberology" isn't a word, and there's nothing special about utilizing the valuable information, data, and tools available to us. That's just basic common sense.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Saying something like Tampa is better than Boston or Toronto for example is silly when not one of those teams will play each other unless they all get out of their respective divisions in the playoffs. How can you possibly compare them without any head-to-head data?

Can I say TB is better than Vancouver or is that also silly?

 

[IPS]

Can I say TB is better than Vancouver or is that also silly?

No you can't. You can only compare teams within a division, otherwise it's like comparing an NHL team to KHL team.

 

[Gabriel426]

Honestly, can we just be happy that Leafs is leading the division and have one of the better records in the league for now.

Who cares about Vegas or TB or other teams, we might not even face them at all this season.

 

[IPS]

Honestly, can we just be happy that Leafs is leading the division and have one of the better records in the league for now.

Who cares about Vegas or TB or other teams, we might not even face them at all this season.

You certainly can, yes. But if you invested in past opinions that pumped up Lou/Babcock you might be a little bitter about the team's current success and look for ways to discredit it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No you can't. You can only compare teams within a division, otherwise it's like comparing an NHL team to KHL team.

Not sure if you're being serious.

 

[Pookie]

"Numberology" isn't a word, and there's nothing special about utilizing the valuable information, data, and tools available to us. That's just basic common sense.

Gosh. Numberology isn’t a word?

I beg to differ. This nonsense word accurately describes your application of statistics to reach conclusions this year beyond our division.

 

[Pookie]

Honestly, can we just be happy that Leafs is leading the division and have one of the better records in the league for now.

Who cares about Vegas or TB or other teams, we might not even face them at all this season.

That’s exactly what I said. We have demonstrated who is the best regular season team in Canada.

done.

that’s all we can conclude based on the divisional format.

Pretty simple and common sense point. But same old same old

 

[Dekes For Days]

Gosh. Numberology isn’t a word? I beg to differ.

Well, just like with your baseless claims about statistics this season, you "begging to differ" doesn't change the facts.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

well all the best with your “numberology.”

you and the guys have fun with that.

hey didn't you say that Keefe would have no real impact on the 25th place Leafs when he took over? Since this thread is about Keefe, what are your thoughts on that now? Personally I think the team going from 25th to 4th is noticeable improvement

 

[Pookie]

Well, just like with your baseless claims about statistics this season, you "begging to differ" doesn't change the facts.

True. Can’t change facts. I can only help
you try to understand them.

If you can make these empirical comparisons between teams that never play each other..... why are NCAA College Football Rankings determined by a Poll?

 

[Pookie]

hey didn't you say that Keefe would have no real impact on the 25th place Leafs when he took over? Since this thread is about Keefe, what are your thoughts on that now? Personally I think the team going from 25th to 4th is noticeable improvement

I think he has done well to help the team, the talented and healthy roster that it is, achieve expectations for the season.

Coaching has very little impact.

playoffs look assured. If we can’t get beyond the division, that will be a fail. But that will be on Dubas who assembled the roster.

 

[Dekes For Days]

True. Can’t change facts. I can only help you try to understand them.

Is that what you call ignoring them and pretending they don't exist because they showed you to be wrong? Because that's the only thing you've been doing.

 

[Pookie]

Is that what you call ignoring them and pretending they don't exist because they showed you to be wrong? Because that's the only thing you've been doing.

well... ironically... about the NCAA Football question I asked you.

they vote on the national rankings.

is that because they haven’t heard of your numberology common sense revolution?

Or is it because they recognize you can’t compare and rank order teams that don’t play each other?

I’ll wait.

 

[Dekes For Days]

about the NCAA Football question I asked you.

You mean about the deflection that had nothing to do with anything? You're on a hockey forum, in case you weren't aware.

 

[IPS]

I think he has done well to help the team, the talented and healthy roster that it is, achieve expectations for the season.

Coaching has very little impact.

playoffs look assured. If we can’t get beyond the division, that will be a fail. But that will be on Dubas who assembled the roster.

I have to disagree. Coaching can have a very large impact depending on the situation of the team. One of the best examples in recent years is Lou taking over the Isles and hiring one of the world's best coaches in Trotz. Pulock, Pelech and Mayfield all made major improvements in their game under Trotz's tutelage, combine that with the stiff defense first system he's instilled in the Islanders - coaching made a big impact on the Islanders.

 

[Menzinger]

I think the level of structure for most NHL teams would surprise people. It's not as if a line goes out and does whatever they want for their 45 second shift. The amount of systems and structured play they follow is pretty high

 

[ShaneFalco]

A certain poster must be back

 

[zeke]

Hmm I assume these are arguments with Pookie, who I can't see.

But if he's talking about coaching impact, somebody remind him that he drew the exact wrong conclusion from that coaching change study he used to use to argue against coaching impacts.

What that study proved what that there was no such thing as that mythical "new coach boost" where any team that changes coaches gets an automatic temporary improvement in play. His study proved that wasn't true - it showed that coaching changes resulted in worse records just as often or even more often than they resulted in better records.

The study proved that a coaching change in and of itself makes no difference.

So that leads to the opposite conclusion than the one he drew - if your team does show legitimate improvement after a coaching change (if it's not just some drastic goalie or special teams improvdmrnt), then you have likely improved your coaching.

In short the study that pookie used to conclude that coaching doesn't matter actually proved the opposite - that it matters very much.

 

[Pookie]

You mean about the deflection that had nothing to do with anything? You're on a hockey forum, in case you weren't aware.

Focus.

You say we can absolutely rank orders teams that don't play against each other.

Yet the NCAA, an organization with over 5x the revenue that the NHL has and clearly has heard of statistics.... has determined that the they are unable to rank order teams that don't play against other with any degree of accuracy.

Instead, they vote to determine national standings for Football and Basketball.

If you want to say that under Keefe the Leafs have the 4th best Power Play in the league as voted by 65 Sportswriters from across the nation.... have at it.

If you want to say that under Keefe, the Leafs have the 4th best Power Play in the league as shown here in this chart that ranks teams that don't play each other... then unfortunately, one wouldn't be very aware of what they are talking about.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Focus.

It's hilarious that you're in a hockey discussion, deflecting to blind appeals to authority in an entirely different sport, because you don't actually have anything to support any of your claims, and you're telling others to focus.

I've been focused on the discussion the whole time. There isn't any significant difference between this year and other years in terms of variation in opponent quality, and there is still a lot of value that can be gained from league-wide statistics. You don't get to arbitrarily ignore all data just because it overwhelmingly shows pretty much everything you've said in here to be wrong.

 

[Menzinger]

There's also not a major sports league in the world where every team plays every team equally. The notion this somehow means that no statistical cross comparisons can be made in those leagues is absurd.

Even during a normal season in the NHL, teams don't face each other equally. Yet 99.999% of hockey fans and media analysts would have little issue comparing players across divisions and conferences

 

[Pookie]

There's also not a major sports league in the world where every team plays every team equally. The notion this somehow means that no statistical cross comparisons can be made in those leagues is absurd.

Even during a normal season in the NHL, teams don't face each other equally. Yet 99.999% of hockey fans and media analysts would have little issue comparing players across divisions and conferences

surely you recognize a difference between playing a team 3 times, another one 5 times VS not playing any of the 24 teams.

NCAA has a problem comparing them. That’s why they vote.

it is an enjoyable season so far. Best team in Canada.

That should be good enough.