Seth Jones or Patrik Laine

[nobody]

How do you know? No-one has yet seen how 20 yo Laine will play. You are comparing him with a 20+ yo Ovi. You didn’t see Ovi at 18 and 19. It’s the same as saying Dahlin looks worse than a young Karlsson - you can’t know this until you’ve seen them play at the same age.

Or to take your example, let’s say Dahlin had a fair 18 yo season - would you be able to say he looked worse than a 24 yo Kieth? No, because you didn’t see Kieth at 18, nor can you know how Dahlin will look at 24. You can compare them only when Dahlin hits 24, everything else is guesswork. I didn’t think this would be such a hard concept to grasp.

I've watched 17/18/19 and 20 year old Ovi play. And trust me when I say this. Laine just doesn't have the physical attributes to play as electric a game as Ovi. Ovechkin was an absolute monster. He didn't go around players, he went through them. Ovi as a rookie led his team in points with 52 G and 106 points, meanwhile his teams second best scorer had 57 points. Almost half as many. No offense to Laine as he's a fantastic talent. But he couldn't hold Ovechkin's jock strap at age 20. I don't have to wait and see Laine's 20 year old NHL campaign. Laine is an elite finisher and has one of the best shots in the game but that's about as far as his and Ovi's comparisons go. I see Laine turning out to be a similar player to Stamkos than Ovechkin.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

Duncan Keith never made the NHL until he was 24. How do we know that Connor Carrick won't be as good as Duncan Keith if we haven't seen them playing at the same age yet?

As you can tell it isn't a good argument. You can view the tools. Laine is a PP sniper and someone who wins you cups as a depth offensive weapon. If he is your best player you will not win a ton, and his production would take a dive as he doesn't seem to be able to make his own offense very much and more is really good at finding open space made by other players (or on the PP) and getting his shot off.

I don’t think Laine will be as good as Ovechkin but if there is anyone that has a potential breakout season in the midst it’s Laine, his usage was very low, he scored 70 points without playing with his teams other best player(Scheifele) and got to play like 5 games with Wheeler(which didn’t do much because Wheelers performance at Center wasn’t great at all). Laine can make his own Offence in the offensive zone with his vision size and shot potential from any area but every player will score more with better with better linemates and more minutes to prove them self.

 

[Tommigun]

I've watched 17/18/19 and 20 year old Ovi play. And trust me when I say this. Laine just doesn't have the physical attributes to play as electric a game as Ovi. Ovechkin was an absolute monster. He didn't go around players, he went through them. Ovi as a rookie led his team in points with 52 G and 106 points, meanwhile his teams second best scorer had 57 points. Almost half as many. No offense to Laine as he's a fantastic talent. But he couldn't hold Ovechkin's jock strap at age 20. I don't have to wait and see Laine's 20 year old NHL campaign. Laine is an elite finisher and has one of the best shots in the game but that's about as far as his and Ovi's comparisons go. I see Laine turning out to be a similar player to Stamkos than Ovechkin.

Once again, you are comparing an older Ovi at 20. Laine has not played at 20 yo yet so you can’t know how he’ll look next season. I don’t believe he’ll be as good as Ovi either, but you can’t know yet so you can’t make a comparison to a young Ovi until they have played at the same age.

And you are right, Laine couldn’t hold Ovi’s jock strap at 20 because it’s an age at which Laine has not played yet.

 

[nobody]

Once again, you are comparing an older Ovi at 20. Laine has not played at 20 yo yet so you can’t know how he’ll look next season. I don’t believe he’ll be as good as Ovi either, but you can’t know yet so you can’t make a comparison to a young Ovi until they have played at the same age.

Okay. Enjoy discussing hypotheticals.

 

[Tommigun]

Okay. Enjoy discussing hypotheticals.

Are you out of your mind? It is you guys who are discussing hypotheticals - you are guessing how Laine will look at 20 and comparing that to Ovechkin’s rookie season at 20. You are comparing guesswork!

 

[X66]

As I said before he didn’t get a minute with a Scheifele this past season and played with Wheeler at C(which he didn’t play well at) at 5v5.


Also I believe Laine wasn’t even top 50 in PP minutes league wide and the season before he wasn’t even top 100 in PP minutes, so saying he gets a “TON” of PP minutes isn’t even true(especially when it comes to the fact both Voracek and Kessel where both top 10 in PP TOI this past season and the year before). That’s just a misconception because Laines **** makes him the best Power Play option for Goalscoring in the league, please do the research before you make assumptions.

He's top 45 in PP time among forwards, and got 245 minutes on the PP last year.

That IS a ton of time on the PP.

For example, not even a single Leaf got over 190 mins on the PP.

He got more PP time than McDavid.

So yes, he played a ton on the PP, anything 3 minutes average and above is a lot of PP time.

Laine would either be the most played or second most played player on the PP on more than half the teams in the NHL, lol.

Don't give me that he doesn't play a lot of the PP.

 

[Tommigun]

Okay. Enjoy discussing hypotheticals.

Btw “Seth Jones sucks, I saw him play at 16 and he wasn’t as good as rookie Keith at 24”.

That’s the discussion you are leading.

 

[filinski77]

Once again, you are comparing an older Ovi at 20. Laine has not played at 20 yo yet so you can’t know how he’ll look next season. I don’t believe he’ll be as good as Ovi either, but you can’t know yet so you can’t make a comparison to a young Ovi until they have played at the same age.

And you are right, Laine couldn’t hold Ovi’s jock strap at 20 because it’s an age at which Laine has not played yet.

This argument has already been made in other threads. It's only Laine fans that believe the best comparable is Laines' 3rd season.

Assuming the NHL season starts on October 1st every year, Ovechkin was 7,319 days old when he started in 2005.

Laine starting the season in 2017 (Both players respective second years after being draft eligible): 7,105 days old. Under this comparison, Ovechkin as the advantage of being 214 days older, and Laine has the advantage of having an NHL season under his belt.

Laine starting in the season in 2018 (His 3rd year after being draft eligible compared to OV's second year after being draft eligible): 7,470 days old. Under this comparison Laine is 151 days older, and has TWO years of NHL experience on Ovechkin.

Please logically tell me how Laine being 151 days older with 2 extra NHL years of experience is a more fair way of comparing, than Ovi being 214 days older with Laine still having a year of NHL experience over Ovi.

If anything, the D+2 comparison where Ovi is ~7 months older is still in Laine's favour, since Laine has had a NHL season under his belt to help develop him. Arguing otherwise is literally just being anchored by the absolute age (in years), and ignoring the actual timeline, and seeing how close it is.

 

[Tommigun]

This argument has already been made in other threads. It's only Laine fans that believe the best comparable is Laines' 3rd season.

Assuming the NHL season starts on October 1st every year, Ovechkin was 7,319 days old when he started in 2005.

Laine starting the season in 2017 (Both players respective second years after being draft eligible): 7,105 days old. Under this comparison, Ovechkin as the advantage of being 214 days older, and Laine has the advantage of having an NHL season under his belt.

Laine starting in the season in 2018 (His 3rd year after being draft eligible compared to OV's second year after being draft eligible): 7,470 days old. Under this comparison Laine is 151 days older, and has TWO years of NHL experience on Ovechkin.

Please logically tell me how Laine being 151 days older with 2 extra NHL years of experience is a more fair way of comparing, than Ovi being 214 days older with Laine still having a year of NHL experience over Ovi.

If anything, the D+2 comparison where Ovi is ~7 months older is still in Laine's favour, since Laine has had a NHL season under his belt to help develop him.

Fair points, thanks for that! But I’ll pose a question back - if you are comparing two players 20 yo seasons (the earliest age at which both played in the league), why WOULDN’T you compare them at 20 yo? Why would you compare one at 19 yo and the other at 20? That’s some weird logic. Of course you’d compare both players’ 20 yo seasons. And yes, Laine will have two NHL seasons under his belt at that point which will be favorable to him, but it’s the only comparison you can do if you want to compare them at the same age. I’m hard pressed to believe this is a “Laine fan” thing - when comparing seasons at a certain age you tend to pick the same age for both players.

 

[AWSAA]

Laine was a PPG+ player at 18y.o until Paul Maurice inexplicably separated him & Scheifele. Despite leading the team in PP goals he played on the 2nd unit for the majority of the year, receiving less PP minutes than Adam Lowry.

No doubt in my mind he would've been in the 85-90+pts range last season had he been deployed on the top line.

 

[filinski77]

Fair points, thanks for that! But I’ll pose a question back - if you are comparing two players 20 yo seasons (the earliest age at which both played in the league), why WOULDN’T you compare them at 20 yo? Why would you compare one at 19 yo and the other at 20? That’s some weird logic. Of course you’d compare both players’ 20 yo seasons. And yes, Laine will have two NHL seasons under his belt at that point which will be favorable to him, but it’s the only comparison you can do if you want to compare them at the same age. I’m hard pressed to believe this is a “Laine fan” thing - when comparing seasons at a certain age you tend to pick the same age for both players.

Because the D+2 comparison is based on each players second NHL season based on when they were drafted, which is how the NHL sets it up as it is.

It's the same as looking at Matthews and Laine. Both players are going into their 3rd season after the 2016 NHL draft. But as of today, Laine is 20 yrs + 112 days, and Matthews is 20 +326 days.

Starting the 2018-2019 season, Matthews will be 21 and Laine will be 20. Yet no-one in the right mind is saying that Laine's upcoming season should be compared to Matthews 2017-2018 season, why? Because they are both playing in their 3rd season after the NHL started. This would be the same comparison as if Ovi had played the year he was drafted.

It's fairly cut and dry, and the only reason not to look at this is to give Laine an advantage and to put other players at a disadvantage when comparing the two.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I don’t think Laine will be as good as Ovechkin but if there is anyone that has a potential breakout season in the midst it’s Laine, his usage was very low, he scored 70 points without playing with his teams other best player(Scheifele) and got to play like 5 games with Wheeler(which didn’t do much because Wheelers performance at Center wasn’t great at all). Laine can make his own Offence in the offensive zone with his vision size and shot potential from any area but every player will score more with better with better linemates and more minutes to prove them self.

Laine isn't a line driver. He benefits greatly from having quality playmakers feeding him the puck.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

He's top 45 in PP time among forwards, and got 245 minutes on the PP last year.

That IS a ton of time on the PP.

For example, not even a single Leaf got over 190 mins on the PP.

He got more PP time than McDavid.

So yes, he played a ton on the PP, anything 3 minutes average and above is a lot of PP time.

Laine would either be the most played or second most played player on the PP on more than half the teams in the NHL, lol.

Don't give me that he doesn't play a lot of the PP.

Leaf fans coming in here to mention Leafs, this is not a Leafs poll just because Leafs PP structure is a split one, they are irrelevant to this poll and the argument I was having, if you don’t like the way the Jets structure there Power Play take that up with Maurice not me.

You used the fact that Laine had a “TON” of PP minutes when arguing the fact of Laine vs Voracek and Kessel(not even sure if you where counter arguing that or just trying to make another Leafs/Matthews vs Laine argument) when they have been Top 10 in PP minutes league wise for the past 2 season.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

Laine isn't a line driver. He benefits greatly from having quality playmakers feeding him the puck.

Sure he does. That’s why he had the more overall points than any of his linemates this season.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Sure he does. That’s why he had the more overall points than any of his linemates this season.

I didn't say linemates. I said playmakers. Unless you want to pretend that he's not PP dependent.

 

[Psych0dad]

This is a serious question to someone?

Shows how little Laine is known. Seth Jones is a fantastic D for a long time.

Laine beats Gretzkys and Crosbys in teenage scoring with miniscule icetime.

Why are D and FWD compared anyway?

 

[Psych0dad]

Well let's keep the TOI and change Little for Scheifele for next season?

60 or 70 goals?

Not a single person in the NHL has reached 40 goals in such a low ice-time than Laine since TOI has been tracked. You say that his production would not increase with increased ice-time, but I don't find that very plausible. Who knows.

That's the point. You give him the opportunity, he is ready for 60 or even 70 goals.

There isn't a defenseman in the world worth that. Not Karlsson, not Burns, not Subban. Seth Jones is a fantastic young D but this is worlds apart.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

I didn't say linemates. I said playmakers. Unless you want to pretend that he's not PP dependent.

Laine was still 96th percentile in Goalscoring 5v5 while playing with the Jets worst overall Center(Laine scored the exact same amount of ES points with Little as with Stastny, Stastny played with Laine for 27% of the season while Little played with Laine for 50.6% of the season, Little was a major liability to say the least) for a majority of the season, he has more 5v5 shots than 94% of the league.

Also if you want to talk about playmakers on the PP you should realize the fact that there best one Wheeler coincidentally had a career year high in assists(he had more PP Assists than ES just to add and he’s never even came towards having 30% of his Assists on PP compared to his ES) while having the option to feed Laine.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

That's the point. You give him the opportunity, he is ready for 60 or even 70 goals.

There isn't a defenseman in the world worth that. Not Karlsson, not Burns, not Subban. Seth Jones is a fantastic young D but this is worlds apart.

No, Laine is not scoring 70 Goals. Ovechkin is the best Goalscorer of all-time and he couldn’t get there in a time when it was easier to score goals.

60 is definitely possible over the years given luck and better situations but 70 is a no go.

 

[Psych0dad]

No, Laine is not scoring 70 Goals. Ovechkin is the best Goalscorer of all-time and he couldn’t get there in a time when it was easier to score goals.

60 is definitely possible over the years given luck and better situations but 70 is a no go.

Ovechkin WAS the best goalscorer of all time. He reached 65. Today a 60 would be comparable. Laine will beat both of those measures. He scored 44 NHL goals with icetime nobody ever has scored 40 with. At 19. Ovechkin scored like 13 goals in the RSL (probably 5th or 6th best league in tbe world at the time) at the same age. Keep that in mind. Laine has 80 NHL goals before OV had any.

Laine will get there.

 

[filinski77]

Ovechkin WAS the best goalscorer of all time. He reached 65. Today a 60 would be comparable. Laine will beat both of those measures. He scored 44 NHL goals with icetime nobody ever has scored 40 with. At 19. Ovechkin scored like 13 goals in the RSL (probably 5th or 6th best league in tbe world at the time) at the same age. Keep that in mind. Laine has 80 NHL goals before OV had any.

Laine will get there.

Ovi scored 65 when league average goals were 2.78. The last 2 years, it has been 2.77 and 2.97. 60 now =/= or > 65 when Ovi did it.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Ovy > Jones > Laine

That's the discussion right?

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

This is a serious question to someone?

Why are D and FWD compared anyway?

Why do dogs lick their balls?

 

[grieves]

This argument has already been made in other threads. It's only Laine fans that believe the best comparable is Laines' 3rd season.

Assuming the NHL season starts on October 1st every year, Ovechkin was 7,319 days old when he started in 2005.

Laine starting the season in 2017 (Both players respective second years after being draft eligible): 7,105 days old. Under this comparison, Ovechkin as the advantage of being 214 days older, and Laine has the advantage of having an NHL season under his belt.

Laine starting in the season in 2018 (His 3rd year after being draft eligible compared to OV's second year after being draft eligible): 7,470 days old. Under this comparison Laine is 151 days older, and has TWO years of NHL experience on Ovechkin.

Please logically tell me how Laine being 151 days older with 2 extra NHL years of experience is a more fair way of comparing, than Ovi being 214 days older with Laine still having a year of NHL experience over Ovi.

If anything, the D+2 comparison where Ovi is ~7 months older is still in Laine's favour, since Laine has had a NHL season under his belt to help develop him. Arguing otherwise is literally just being anchored by the absolute age (in years), and ignoring the actual timeline, and seeing how close it is.

If NHL experience was the only advantage Laine had, you might have a point, but NHL experience only has very slight significance, whereas physical maturity has all the significance.

Might wanna look at the below post also (Btw, Laine was the only player to reach 20 PP goals last season and they are not even double shifting him [yet]).

Lets compare Laine's 2nd season to Ovi's first:

2017-2018 Winnipeg Jets had 274 pp opportunities
2005-2006 Washington Capitals had 495 pp opportunities

Ovechkin had 6:43 pp, toi 14:05 ev toi, season total: 1,751:22
Laine had 3:00 pp toi, 13:28 ev toi, season total: 1,351:25

hypothetically if Laine had Ovechkin's ev+pp TOI he would have scored 69 goals 108pts

Of course this isn't a fair comparision, but it puts the 05-06 season into context.

So far Laine is ahead of Ovi. You can slice it and dice it any way you want but it won't change this fact. Maybe the situation changes in the future, maybe not. People develop individually anyway so the age comparison is only the best guess we have. But if you want to calculate in something as insignificant as NHL experience, then we should look at all the context.

If we would actually know the stage of physical development for these guys, we could do a more accurate comparison. I suspect Laine would separate himself even more in this case having the larger frame and injury history, but this is pure speculation.

 

[Ippenator]

There's more to Hockey than goals.

82-34-58-92 Kessel
82-20-65-85 Voracek
82-44-26-70 Laine

Uhh.... Laine is fortunate to be considered with those players.

Ok, you choose to go with something else than goals? How about this then?

NHL Player Ratings, NHL Player Rankings

Laine is ranked 16th of all NHL players and 3rd out of all the RW’s while Jones is ranked as 58th out of all players and 12th out of all RD’s .

And players like Kessel and Voracek (whom don’t even belong to this discussion) were much, much worse than Laine after all. Kessel ranked 89th of all players and Voracek’s ranking went way over 100.

Laine is in a different class as a player than Jones, and if we look at the potential the gap is simply absolutely enormous.