Selke finalists - Bergeron, Kopitar, Toews

[izzy]

Absolutely shocking nominees.

 

[Banana Sandwiches]

Is there a reason why wingers never win this? (except Jere Lehtinen)

Do you have to take face-offs to win this or something?

 

[Regal]

This is from a previous Selke discussion thread






Definitely a reputation award.

The problem with these types of arguments is the zone starts are never tied in to the other data, they're just presented to say "well these players had it easier", without showing how much of an effect the zone starts had. And really, it's not nearly as much as people around here like to think.

What I find funny though, is everyone complains that offensive totals are are overused in Selke voting, and then then this thread is filled with people saying Kopitar doesn't deserve it, largely because this has been considered a down year for him due to his goal totals.

 

[phosphene*]

Here comes mtl fans flooding in to support their meme player.

 

[BostonBruins11]

the only reason Hab players had amazing +- is because of PRICE, and not their stellar defensive play

 

[Epsilon]

Is there a reason why wingers never win this? (except Jere Lehtinen)

Do you have to take face-offs to win this or something?

I'd imagine that's a factor that some of the voters consider (especially since it's something tangible they can look at). Also in most systems the center is naturally going to have more defensive responsibilities than the wingers. There are exceptions of course.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I've never thought Toews was really Selke-worthy. Bergeron and Kopitar really should be nominated every year though. It's not reputation, they're just amazing and consistent defensively.

You thought wrong. Toews is an absolute beast. You should pay more attention to him.

 

[Woodrow]

Fancy stat leaders:

 

[alg363636]

Bergeron was better defensively than Toews but Toews will probably win it because his team (which is a better team all around) made the playoffs.

Toews is very good but Bergeron is simply in a league of his own defensively. Has been since last season really.

Kopitar really wasn't that impressive this season.

 

[Woodrow]

 

[OshawaBruin]

The problem with these types of arguments is the zone starts are never tied in to the other data, they're just presented to say "well these players had it easier", without showing how much of an effect the zone starts had. And really, it's not nearly as much as people around here like to think.

That's fine, I didn't just post zone starts though, that post also has CF% and SCF% so when you look at all three together it paints a very impressive picture of how Bergeron is simply in a class of his own.

 

[missingchicklet]

Bergeron deserves it. Unfortunately his team crapped the bed and didn't make the playoffs.

 

[Pietrangelbro]

I seem to remember a bunch of people raving about Barkov's advanced stats and defensive prowess near the midway of this season, saying he had the best defensive stats of anyone in the league since prime Datsyuk or something.

Does anyone else remember this?

 

[member 151739]

Looks like Toews is winning this.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

This is from a previous Selke discussion thread






Definitely a reputation award.

It will be a minor travesty if he doesn't win.

 

[gamer1035]

Selke is a reputation award. At least until the people who give it out learn advanced stats.

 

[Super Cake]

I thought the Calder finalists were going to be announced today. At least that is what i thought i saw on the schedule that was put on nhl.com.

Must have misread something.

 

[Church of Toews*]

I think the guy that led the NHL in +/- should have been nominated.

Your Right Kucherov should be in the running as well its a travesty he wasn't nominated

Lol not serious when Montreal Fans stop with this Price carries the team and everyone else is bad mumbo jumbo maybe then people will pay more attention to him. Hossa is one of the best 2 way wingers in the league and he gets swept under the rug because he plays with Johnny it happens

 

[Taze em]

At the end of the day all SAT%REL shows you is how a player performs compared to his teammates. You can't take that and compare across teams.

For example, should a player be penalized because there are other really good players on his team that put up huge SAT%?

Datsyuk's numbers tell you he was way better than his team, but tells you nothing when you compare Datsyuk to Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar or anyone else.

SAT needs to be put into context of zone starts.

 

[Regal]

That's fine, I didn't just post zone starts though, that post also has CF% and SCF% so when you look at all three together it paints a very impressive picture of how Bergeron is simply in a class of his own.

I know you didn't. But what I was getting at is that zone starts in themselves mean nothing without context of how much they affect the other stats. Not trying to pick on you specifically, but too often they're just thrown out there without that context, and people seem to think they have this massive effect. Realistically, they only really matter when you lose the faceoff in the defensive zone, or win the faceoff in the offensive zone, and even then only for the first ten seconds or so. It would be great though if there was an easy adjustment to see what the numbers "should" look like if everyone had the same usage.

Though I do agree with your conclusion that Bergeron is the best defensive forward in the game.

 

[ToewsForDays]

IMO, This has become more of an all around forward award than just best defensive forward. Now they look for players that play very well defensively and can produce while 10-15 years ago it was mainly for defensive forwards (ex: Draper, Madden)

 

[Regal]

IMO, This has become more of an all around forward award than just best defensive forward. Now they look for players that play very well defensively and can produce while before it was mainly for defensive forwards (ex: Draper)

Part of that is the way the game has gone now though. Just about everyone's expected to play a two-way game and a lot of talented players are using the skills and hockey sense that makes them good offensively on the other side of the puck as well. And coaches go power vs. power a lot more instead of using pure shutdown lines.

 

[ToewsForDays]

Part of that is the way the game has gone now though. Just about everyone's expected to play a two-way game and a lot of talented players are using the skills and hockey sense that makes them good offensively on the other side of the puck as well. And coaches go power vs. power a lot more instead of using pure shutdown lines.

Good point.

 

[Lost Horizons]

Part of that is the way the game has gone now though. Just about everyone's expected to play a two-way game and a lot of talented players are using the skills and hockey sense that makes them good offensively on the other side of the puck as well. And coaches go power vs. power a lot more instead of using pure shutdown lines.

Not the B's. CJ always matches lines and he always matches Bergeron against the other teams top line. It doesn't matter if it's home or away. If your on another line and the opposing team puts out their top line your expected to get to the bench for PB37 line. CJ gets nuts with the line matching. He gets to the point of if the other teams 4th line ices the puck instead of putting out the 1st or 2nd line he'll put out the 4th line for the offensive zone start.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

Remember when Jere Lehtinen used to have this trophy on lock every year? Demz were the dayz, my boys.