Season Officially Suspended -- COVID-19/Coronavirus Talk

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bleedblue1223

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There's criteria virologists have put forward for phasing the restrictions out. There are 5 states that meet those criteria right now. The vast majority of the US doesn't have the testing infrastructure or the contact tracing to begin yet.
Even looking at States as a whole misses quite a bit. Missouri is an example, restrictions in St. Louis should be a bit stricter than they are in KC, there is just a bit more risk in St. Louis than KC.
 

Thallis

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Even looking at States as a whole misses quite a bit. Missouri is an example, restrictions in St. Louis should be a bit stricter than they are in KC, there is just a bit more risk in St. Louis than KC.

The more local you go with reopening, the less practical enforcement becomes, and therefore the more dangerous it is. It takes only 1 person to go into a city with the virus(or vice versa) to bring it back and cause a spike of cases there. There's also the fact that the more local you go, the easier it is for infrastructure to get overwhelmed and the harder it is to collect accurate data.
 

bleedblue1223

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The more local you go with reopening, the less practical enforcement becomes, and therefore the more dangerous it is. It takes only 1 person to go into a city with the virus(or vice versa) to bring it back and cause a spike of cases there. There's also the fact that the more local you go, the easier it is for infrastructure to get overwhelmed and the harder it is to collect accurate data.
This is still flawed logic, it's the same logic that assumed Florida was going to blow up like crazy because of Spring Break. If St. Louis opens up more than KC, I'm not going to drive across the state just to shop at the stores that St. Louis opened vs KC.
 

Thallis

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This is still flawed logic, it's the same logic that assumed Florida was going to blow up like crazy because of Spring Break. If St. Louis opens up more than KC, I'm not going to drive across the state just to shop at the stores that St. Louis opened vs KC.

It only takes 1 person who wants to visit family in an opened area to spread it unknowingly there and cause an outbreak. The data shows the average person who gets covid will spread it to 2.5 people without restrictions in place. This is faster than most diseases and can go through communities extremely quickly without proper tracking, enforcement, and preparation
 

bleedblue1223

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It only takes 1 person who wants to visit family in an opened area to spread it unknowingly there and cause an outbreak. The data shows the average person who gets covid will spread it to 2.5 people without restrictions in place. This is faster than most diseases and can go through communities extremely quickly without proper tracking, enforcement, and preparation
Those people were always able to travel and areas were never completely shutdown. What's the difference between spreading it at Target and spreading it at a business that was recently opened. That risk was always there.
 

Thallis

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Those people were always able to travel and areas were never completely shutdown. What's the difference between spreading it at Target and spreading it at a business that was recently opened. That risk was always there.

When the whole area is opened, more people will be out doing non essential errands and interacting with others. The risk is elevated the more people interact, which is the purpose of reopening.
 

bleedblue1223

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When the whole area is opened, more people will be out doing non essential errands and interacting with others. The risk is elevated the more people interact, which is the purpose of reopening.
Sure, risk goes up, but it's also naive to think that people weren't already doing non-essential errands. I think you'd be surprised how many are out at places like Target, Wal-Mart, Costco, etc. shopping for non-essential items. It's not like people were only going out for food and then returning home and not going out. And the group of people doing that, would still continue to do so when stuff is opened up.

Oh well, we are just going in a circle at this point.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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There's criteria virologists have put forward for phasing the restrictions out. There are 5 states that meet those criteria right now. The vast majority of the US doesn't have the testing infrastructure or the contact tracing to begin yet.
Yet if you look at the experience in every place that has relaxed measures without strictly meeting these criteria, they’ve continued to see decline in disease burden simultaneous with opening their economies. Hospitalizations in Georgia were down 38% three weeks after relaxing measures. The media was ready to pounce on the governors of Georgia, Texas and Florida for “gambling lives”. But it’s been crickets in the weeks after.

Sure, the epidemiologists would like more testing infrastructure in place. But if we choose to extrapolate from the experience around the world, and in parts of the US that have opened, we aren’t seeing any cautionary tales. We are seeing a rapidly growing body of experience telling us that the epidemiologists have been too cautious.

If there were no cost associated with being timid, then fine. But there is a tremendous cost, and it outweighs any realistic benefit we can imagine for the at-risk group who we’ll be targeting for protection under all the scenarios.
 
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bleedblue1223

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I know this isn't really COVID related, but some other stuff in here really isn't COVID either. Man, Minnesota is a dumpster fire right now, and crazy that the first arrest in all this, aren't the cops, aren't the people that set the city on fire, but a CNN team reporting on this, and the cops said they were just following orders. The protesters burned a police precinct to the ground, affordable housing units, locally owned business, etc.
 

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I know this isn't really COVID related, but some other stuff in here really isn't COVID either. Man, Minnesota is a dumpster fire right now, and crazy that the first arrest in all this, aren't the cops, aren't the people that set the city on fire, but a CNN team reporting on this, and the cops said they were just following orders. The protesters burned a police precinct to the ground, affordable housing units, locally owned business, etc.

I have to wonder how much could've been avoided if they would've just arrested the cops (or at the very least, the cop who killed George Floyd) from the jump. It's a shame when these protests result in destruction and get to this point because it makes it easier for people to dig in further rather than confronting the real issues at play.
 
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bleedblue1223

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I have to wonder how much could've been avoided if they would've just arrested the cops (or at the very least, the cop who killed George Floyd) from the jump. It's a shame when these protests result in destruction and get to this point because it makes it easier for people to dig in further rather than confronting the real issues at play.
With that video I think this was always inevitable. Unfortunately, there are always bad actors in these things. You even have blue check marks on twitter saying to burn it all down, just crazy.

I guess they are saying there is evidence that wouldn't support a conviction, but all the cop had to do was just let up on his neck to at a minimum check on him, so even in the most generous scenario, there is guilt there, at a bare minimum it's negligent manslaughter.
 

Celtic Note

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I know this isn't really COVID related, but some other stuff in here really isn't COVID either. Man, Minnesota is a dumpster fire right now, and crazy that the first arrest in all this, aren't the cops, aren't the people that set the city on fire, but a CNN team reporting on this, and the cops said they were just following orders. The protesters burned a police precinct to the ground, affordable housing units, locally owned business, etc.
The video of his death is sickening, saddening and infuriating. Honestly, those words probably don’t do justice to the situation.

Arresting the officers as promptly as possible, in addition to firing them on the spot, is the only acceptable response. This seems about as clear a case as I have ever personally seen of police acting illegally. This coming from someone who is supportive of police and sympathetic to some of the challenging situations they face. But, not all situations require sympathy. This situation is one where being sympathetic should not even be a consideration. It was heinous.

I can almost understand the riot like response ...if you are purely thinking emotionally. But, logically what does looting and arson have to do with justice or proving a point that the a person engaged in what amounts to no less than murder and that his colleague stood by as the offense happened? The only protest that makes sense is a peaceful one. Responding to something illegal with something illegal doesn’t make sense to me at all.

Let’s add another toxic layer to the already bad situation by having the president, all but say that that if you loot, we will shoot. Wasn’t unnecessary killing the thing that kicked this all off in the first place?

I guess my logical and critical thinking brain does not understand why we have to add fuel to a fire that should not have started in the first place.
 

MissouriMook

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I know this isn't really COVID related, but some other stuff in here really isn't COVID either. Man, Minnesota is a dumpster fire right now, and crazy that the first arrest in all this, aren't the cops, aren't the people that set the city on fire, but a CNN team reporting on this, and the cops said they were just following orders. The protesters burned a police precinct to the ground, affordable housing units, locally owned business, etc.
I saw that this morning and, to be fair, even CNN mentioned in their coverage that the crew was behind the police line and were asked to move to the other side of the line. They were only arrested because they refused to comply with police orders on where they could and could not film from. CNN either wants to make this about the fact that the reporter was black or that they were just journalism-ing, but the crew was in the wrong and they were released almost immediately. Shame on CNN for taking away from the real stories in Minneapolis to push this false narrative.
 

bleedblue1223

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I saw that this morning and, to be fair, even CNN mentioned in their coverage that the crew was behind the police line and were asked to move to the other side of the line. They were only arrested because they refused to comply with police orders on where they could and could not film from. CNN either wants to make this about the fact that the reporter was black or that they were just journalism-ing, but the crew was in the wrong and they were released almost immediately. Shame on CNN for taking away from the real stories in Minneapolis to push this false narrative.
Yeah, I'm sure there was somewhat of a valid reasoning, but man the leaders of Minnesota have to understand how that looks. The first arrest in all of this was a reporter, that's just amazing to me. Even if they are staying in a cleared area that they should not be in, you have to do everything you can to move them without arresting them because this just makes it look worse for them.
 

MissouriMook

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The video of his death is sickening, saddening and infuriating. Honestly, those words probably don’t do justice to the situation.

Arresting the officers as promptly as possible, in addition to firing them on the spot, is the only acceptable response. This seems about as clear a case as I have ever personally seen of police acting illegally. This coming from someone who is supportive of police and sympathetic to some of the challenging situations they face. But, not all situations require sympathy. This situation is one where being sympathetic should not even be a consideration. It was heinous.

I can almost understand the riot like response ...if you are purely thinking emotionally. But, logically what does looting and arson have to do with justice or proving a point that the a person engaged in what amounts to no less than murder and that his colleague stood by as the offense happened? The only protest that makes sense is a peaceful one. Responding to something illegal with something illegal doesn’t make sense to me at all.

Let’s add another toxic layer to the already bad situation by having the president, all but say that that if you loot, we will shoot. Wasn’t unnecessary killing the thing that kicked this all off in the first place?

I guess my logical and critical thinking brain does not understand why we have to add fuel to a fire that should not have started in the first place.
I don't think this type of issue ever gets resolved until you get the majority of good cops speaking out about things like this and intervening when possible instead of standing behind the "brotherhood" in blue. I don't care whether you think that good cops make up 9% of the police force, 90% or 99%, until good cops find this type of behavior unacceptable and do something about it we're never going to get past these racially motivated brutality issues. That means beat cops holding their peer accountable all the way up to police administrations (that includes Chiefs of Police) holding their own cops accountable to the same standard of conducts they apply to the general population. Had a civilian done something like this to another civilian, charges would have already been filed, even if they were later reduced. This cop, and the cops at the scene who allowed him to do this, should be in jail right now awaiting a bond hearing. I don't know if it would have stopped any or all of this senseless rioting and looting, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the right thing to do. This was an extra-judicial execution, plain and simple, and nothing that happened prior to what we see in the video footage excuses that.
 

MissouriMook

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Yeah, I'm sure there was somewhat of a valid reasoning, but man the leaders of Minnesota have to understand how that looks. The first arrest in all of this was a reporter, that's just amazing to me. Even if they are staying in a cleared area that they should not be in, you have to do everything you can to move them without arresting them because this just makes it look worse for them.
You're assuming they didn't, and the way CNN is pushing this story I don't know that you can justify that kind of an assumption.
 

bleedblue1223

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Yeah, cops have to speak out, but we also need a non-law enforcement body providing oversight. Something to provide the public with some level of assurance, similar to how businesses get audited to ensure their numbers aren't fraudulent. Clearly a portion of the population does not have faith in our criminal justice system, and we can't continue with that being the case. Have to at least try something new at this point.
 
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bleedblue1223

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You're assuming they didn't, and the way CNN is pushing this story I don't know that you can justify that kind of an assumption.
Yeah, and maybe I'll be wrong with more evidence. I just have a hard time giving them the benefit of the doubt right now. If they made it perfectly clear through live tv, it would've helped. Just a crazy situation.
 
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