News Article: Sather on Mcdonagh "I'd never seen him play"

[hockeyfan2k11]

How the hell can you put it on Timmins..or fully on Gainey for that matter? Especially in a thread that states that Sather never even saw McDonagh..which tells you the pro scouts had a large stake in that deal. Sather has hired good pro scouts through the years and that;s saved his bacon..Gainey hired a poor one in Gauthier, and then worsened the situation by recommending him for the GM post when he stepped down...Gainey bringing Gauthier into the fold set the club back five years to a decade. Gainey's biggest mistake wasn't pulling the trigger on that deal..it was in hiring Gauthier in the first place.

GM's hire scouts to do their jobs....it was Gauthier's job to look at the Gomez's and McDonagh's..it was Timmins job to run the draft. GM's stay around the parent team most of the time..they get out to scout the odd game, but that is down the pecking order in GM duties...that's why they hire pro and amateur scouts. Who you hire is the most important decisions a GM can make. With the odd exception like Burke and Keenan and GM's of that ilk..they let their scouts do their jobs.

I talked to Trevor right after the deal...trust me..he did not endorse dealing McDonagh. I believe his first words were "he's my baby." He was devastated.

Agreed. While people like to bash Gainey. The biggest issue was Gauthier. Too many BAD deals and decisions that we're still paying for till this day. He was only GM for a short while and completely sunk the team.

You're right on the money with this post.

 

[capebretoncanadien]

How many times does this trade need to be rehashed.

If I had a drink for everytime this trade was mentioned in the Habs NYC series I'd be dead.

I'm so past it by now.

Let's all get past it together mon amis.

 

[Bill McNeal]

How many times does this trade need to be rehashed.

If I had a drink for everytime this trade was mentioned in the Habs NYC series I'd be dead.

I'm so past it by now.

Let's all get past it together mon amis.

I honestly think McGuire brought this trade up more often in the final than the fact Gaborik actually used to play for New York.

 

[LastRide]

I didn't want Gomez, and a bunch others on here didn't want him. He was terrible and Sather wanted to unload that atrocious contract and sign a good player, but he ended up getting more than that.

Gainey was the sucker that bit on it. We lost a solid defenceman who not only was a solid D-Man, but could also put up points. Now we only have PK if we don't resign Markov, and he is liability on D with his wonky knee's. Markov has one maybe 2 years left in him.

I wouldn't be surprised if his production next year drops like a rock. We could have had 3 solid scoring defencemen who could rack up points. We have nothing in the organization for scoring defencemen. Tinordi could be a solid plug, thats it. I guess we better resign the Cube.

That is why Bergevin needs to sign and overpay an over the hill D-Man like Markov. We have nothing else behind him. Losing McDo created all this subpar D we have. Not only do the Habs need to look for forwards, but D-Men too. This could turn ugly. I don't see us having the season we had last year. The reason why we went deeper in the playoffs was guys like Weise and the Cube scoring goals for us.

 

[LastRide]

By the way Gainey should have told Sather you can have Fischer or ******* Off. A mid round pick would have been sufficient for a has-been with a crappy contract.

 

[Whitesnake]

Gauthier was not the GM. He was not pulling the shots. Even if he was endorsing getting Gomez, I don't think he's the one that decided every single player involved in that trade. There is zero proof of this. None.
You've never worked in a team where each member had certain tasks to fill and when all was said and done, you didn't really like some of your teammates work or disagreed with them?
Gauthier being Gainey's assistant doesn't mean he saw eye to eye with every decision.

True. Gainey was the main guy there. Never said otherwise. But I will choose to believe that if the main guy in Pro SCOUTING would have been totally against it, as he should have been, there would not have been a trade. Yes, I did have to work in teams like that and be in charge of it too and had to take some decisions. But if certain people were TOTALLY against my ideas and had the brillance to come up with great reasons why not to do a move....I wouldn't do a move. At one point, people can disagree and you still take your own decision. But there's disagreeing by saying that you don't think he's that great player and that we're giving a lot...and TOTALLY disagreeing and just refusing to acknowledge that we're going to make that awful mistake. Anyway, yes, there's no indications about anything.

Just like there are NO indications that the GM should be praised or bashed on the draft picks the team makes. I mean, Gainey's input on Timmins picking Price in 2005 was "Are you sure". So, sorry, I'm not going to praise a GM based on the fact that we all know they probably never see 1 game of a prospect in his draft year. And yet....some will do it. So we go with what we know which is not a lot. All the time. Eventually, the big guy in charge takes the blame. I have no problem with that. But I know I have a part of the blame for Gauthier for that one too. But obviously Gainey takes most of it, don't worry.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

How the hell can you put it on Timmins..or fully on Gainey for that matter? Especially in a thread that states that Sather never even saw McDonagh..which tells you the pro scouts had a large stake in that deal. Sather has hired good pro scouts through the years and that;s saved his bacon..Gainey hired a poor one in Gauthier, and then worsened the situation by recommending him for the GM post when he stepped down...Gainey bringing Gauthier into the fold set the club back five years to a decade. Gainey's biggest mistake wasn't pulling the trigger on that deal..it was in hiring Gauthier in the first place.

GM's hire scouts to do their jobs....it was Gauthier's job to look at the Gomez's and McDonagh's..it was Timmins job to run the draft. GM's stay around the parent team most of the time..they get out to scout the odd game, but that is down the pecking order in GM duties...that's why they hire pro and amateur scouts. Who you hire is the most important decisions a GM can make. With the odd exception like Burke and Keenan and GM's of that ilk..they let their scouts do their jobs.

I talked to Trevor right after the deal...trust me..he did not endorse dealing McDonagh. I believe his first words were "he's my baby." He was devastated.

I don't know if you're talking about me, but I'm not blaming Timmins at all. I was merely entertaining a hypothetical scenario with WS.

And yes, it's 100% Gainey's fault. It's laughable that you'd say that Gauthier's job is to know a player like McDonagh. At the time, McDo was a prospect still and not registering in Gauthier's sphere of influence yet. Hell, I don't think McDo had even signed a deal with the habs yet at that time. It certainly wasn't Gauthier's place to know how much value McDo had. That was up to Timmins, and I fully believe that Timmins knew full well what he had. So obviously, Gainey didn't consult with Timmins.. or he disregarded his opinion if he did.

I suppose Gauthier is behind the decision to let Koivu go at all cost ? Along with half the team ? Having to replace 3-4 players in the top 6 all in one UFA period ?

I suppose it's Gauthier's fault that when Briere didn't want to sign, and when the HORRIBLE Lecavalier deal fell through, we fell back on the 3rd back up plan of overpaying ridiculously for a Gomez.

And I suppose that it was actually Gauthier negotiating with Sather and generously including McDo in the package along with Higgins and Valatenko... in order to help Sather free cap space to sign Gaborik ? Pretty much EVERYONE on this board knew it was Pejorative Slured the moment it happened.. but Gainey couldn't have known that, he had to rely on his pro scouts for that... because.. you know.. it's not his job to have just the bare minimum knowledge of players in his organization and in the league. Jesus..

I guess when GM make trades, it's actually the director of pro scouting actually negotiating ?

Laughable.

 

[Whitesnake]

I guess when GM make trades, it's actually the director of pro scouting actually negotiating ? Laughable.

Well I,d say that it is laughable to think that the GM alone is the sole and only mind in decisions like that. You really think it's only Gainey's mindset that made him do ALL the moves he did? That he's the only responsible for letting 10 guys go for nothing at one point? And going for Gomez and letting go a top prospect like that? Gainey? Come on man. I'm clearly a Gainey hater here as GM, not at the beginning though as we thought he was a saviour but as it progressed, I never liked the guy. So not protecting him at all. But to think that he,s the solo architect of it all and that the team around him kept saying to him to NOT do this and he never listened to them makes me wonder why the heck would he still continuously keep them around if they never agreed with him.....

We KNOW that Timmins was disregarded. But we can safely know that it was because Gainey panicked...and that people close to him either panicked like him.....or didn,t feel to give their input....or weren't smart enough to find things to say to stop that madness....and other stupidities that happened before and after.

When well-known assistant GM's do their job and are known for great results, they become GM (Benning, Nill). When well-known past GM AND assistant-GM are known for...being well known....they are hired as director of player personnel.....But I will agree....Gainey takes the cake. But Gauthier blew the candles.

And how about that article? Why the heck would that guy says that? 'Cause he's a Bob Gainey #1 fan? With what Grant said....isn't it true that the scouting group hated the move? Why would the rest not be any true? Whether the reason (Gainey's daughter death) is too much or not, what if Gainey was indeed giving a whole lot to Gauthier after that incident? What makes the journalist say something as strong as "Gauthier didn't like McDonagh"??? http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busi...ng+case+pick/6573567/story.html#ixzz1u6ZIQle9

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Well I,d say that it is laughable to think that the GM alone is the sole and only mind in decisions like that. You really think it's only Gainey's mindset that made him do ALL the moves he did? That he's the only responsible for letting 10 guys go for nothing? Gainey? Come on man. I'm clearly a Gainey hater here as GM, not at the beginning though as we thought he was a saviour but as it progressed, I never liked the guy. So not protecting him at all. But to think that he,s the solo architect of it all and that the team around him kept saying to him to NOT do this and he never listened to them makes me wonder why the heck would he still continuously keep them around if they never agreed with him.....

We KNOW that Timmins was disregarded. But we can safely know that it was because Gainey panicked...and that people close to him either panicked like him.....or didn,t feel to give their input....or weren't smart enough to find things to say to stop that madness....and other stupidities that happened before and after.

When well-known assistant GM's do their job and are known for great results, they become GM (Benning, Nill). When well-known past GM AND assistant-GM are known for...being well known....they are hired as director of player personnel.....But I will agree....Gainey takes the cake. But Gauthier blew the candles.

No one will convince me it's Gauthier's fault because of this :

If I had been in Gainey's shoes, knowing that the entire world laughed at the rangers for overpaying Drury/Gomez, knowing they were ****ed with these two as their top 2 centers paid as much as they were, knowing that the rangers wanted to pay big money for yet another UFA forward in Gaborik but didn't have the cap room to do it... knowing all this... there was no reason to give up a first round prospect in the deal. No reason. I don't care if he had this guy whispering in his ear to pull the trigger :

Look, if everyone on this board knew it was stupid the moment it happened... why couldn't Gainey ? Regardless of the incompetent he surrounded himself with telling him stupid things.

And even if the whole thing was entirely Gauthier's brainchild, again... Then that means Gainey let Gauthier talk him into jumping off a cliff.. it's still dumb as hell.

And even then, Gainey hired him. So it's still 100% his fault, even then. A GM's job is to get it right in the end. Whether it's by his own knowledge and saavy, or by hiring people who do that for him. If he was too dumb to make the right move, then he had to be smart enough to surround himself with the right people and he couldn't do that so no matter what it's on Gainey.

EDIT:

And how about that article? Why the heck would that guy says that? 'Cause he's a Bob Gainey #1 fan? With what Grant said....isn't it true that the scouting group hated the move? Why would the rest not be any true? Whether the reason (Gainey's daughter death) is too much or not, what if Gainey was indeed giving a whole lot to Gauthier after that incident? What makes the journalist say something as strong as "Gauthier didn't like McDonagh"??? http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...#ixzz1u6ZIQle9

#1. Gainey's daughter was lost at sea in 2006. Truly tragic, but it was 4 years earlier and if he couldn't move on, he had to step down.
#2. If Gauthier didn't like McDonagh, does that mean he told Gainey.. just throw him in the deal to sweeten the pot ? I am trying to understand how Gauthier not liking McDo can lead to McDo being used as a throw-in. Besides, logically, shouldn't the GM trust his amateur scouts more on the value of a prospect than his ass-GM ?
#3. Did Gainey try to negotiate a little bit with Sather... was Sather holding out for a first round prospect, I strongly doubt it. Acquiring Gomez in itself wasn't THAT bad.. he was an "okay" replacement for Koivu... the problem was to give something of value for a negative value asset and help out sather free cap space to sign Gaborik. That speaks of a GM that didn't have his finger on the pulse of the NHL around him. Regardless of how badly surrounded he was.

 

[SAKS AVENUE]

OMG!!!!! How much would you ladies shreeeek if Valentenko turned out to be Heavy shut down guy. He's huge and great defensively. Actually did come back from Russia in 2012 but didn't impress. He still might come back....... Wouldn't that just send some to their graves early.

He actually looks like a Ryan O'byrne type, but man if he put it together it would send this thread into a black hole.

 

[Whitesnake]

If I had been in Gainey's shoes, knowing that the entire world laughed at the rangers for overpaying Drury/Gomez, knowing they were ****ed with these two as their top 2 centers paid as much as they were, knowing that the rangers wanted to pay big money for yet another UFA forward in Gaborik but didn't have the cap room to do it... knowing all this... there was no reason to give up a first round prospect in the deal. No reason. I don't care if he had this guy whispering in his ear to pull the trigger

He did it 'cause he had struck out with Sundin and Lecavalier and wanted to end the Koivu saga. He HAD to find a C and put himself in the worst of position. Question is....why did we have to move from the Koivu saga? And wasn,t there other options than Gomez? And did we ever talk about getting rid of our 1st rounder instead of McDonagh. Tons of other possibilities that I hope was looked at but clearly, it probably never was. So you never win in a position of weakness, and we were. And didn't win.

And then, did you read my last paragraph of the post you replied to? What if that journalist is right about Gauthier's input?

 

[SAKS AVENUE]

and one more thing.....What if Higgins became the HFBoArd and self proclaimed 40/40 guy we all thought he would be???????

When you think about it, it could have been a lot worse man.

 

[Whitesnake]

OMG!!!!! How much would you ladies shreeeek if Valentenko turned out to be Heavy shut down guy. He's huge and great defensively. Actually did come back from Russia in 2012 but didn't impress. He still might come back....... Wouldn't that just send some to their graves early.

He actually looks like a Ryan O'byrne type, but man if he put it together it would send this thread into a black hole.

Actually, at one point, Timmins compared Valentenko to a bigger Emelin. While Emelin is somewhat struggling, though we will see next year where we hope his injury shouldn't bother him as much, Valentenko could have been a regular in the league as well. He looked the part at one point.

 

[Whitesnake]

and one more thing.....What if Higgins became the HFBoArd and self proclaimed 40/40 guy we all thought he would be???????

When you think about it, it could have been a lot worse man.

True. Actually, Higgins is still doing a very good job. But then Rangers transformed Higgins into Prust. Which is not bad. Even Florida got a 3rd rounder out of Vancouver. And Vancouver got the very good Higgins. Everybody kinda did good with him. We still got at least 3 very good seasons. Nucks only had 2 so far.

 

[SAKS AVENUE]

He did it 'cause he had struck out with Sundin and Lecavalier and wanted to end the Koivu saga. He HAD to find a C and put himself in the worst of position. Question is....why did we have to move from the Koivu saga? And wasn,t there other options than Gomez? And did we ever talk about getting rid of our 1st rounder instead of McDonagh. Tons of other possibilities that I hope was looked at but clearly, it probably never was. So you never win in a position of weakness, and we were. And didn't win.

And then, did you read my last paragraph of the post you replied to? What if that journalist is right about Gauthier's input?

Look, Gainey had a plan. If it worked he would have been a genius. But it didn't.

Gainey Plan

1. Clean house to have all contracts expire at the same time.
2. Get Gomez to attract fellow mate that was his right hand man in Gionta.
3. Sign Camalerri
4.Win Cup!!

Wishful thinking but not completely out of space. If it gelled and worked out, it would have been pretty awesome.

 

[Whitesnake]

Look, Gainey had a plan. If it worked he would have been a genius. But it didn't.

Gainey Plan

1. Clean house to have all contracts expire at the same time.
2. Get Gomez to attract fellow mate that was his right hand man in Gionta.
3. Sign Camalerri
4.Win Cup!!

Wishful thinking but not completely out of space. If it gelled and worked out, it would have been pretty awesome.

And yet this great plan of his started with trying to get MUCH bigger as a team and at the center position by trying to get Sundin and Lecavalier. He wanted a BIGGER team that ended up to be.....Gomez, Gionta and Cammy. Great plan.

And sorry, but I will NEVER buy that the Gomez acquisition had ANY relation to acquiring the other 2. People has to stop with that crap. Nobody cared about Gomez. That's like thinking we should acquire Brad Richards right now so that it would attract Martin St.Louis to ask for a trade....Come on. The only think that attracted Gionta and Cammy was MASSIVE OVERPAYMENT. When your boss in Jersey who still wants you, tells you, when he learned about the Habs offer, to stop talking to him, run and sign in 3 copies the offer....you KNOW that it was insanely way too massive to pass. With or without Gomez, people think he would not have come here for that same offer if Gomez would not have been here?

 

[SAKS AVENUE]

True. Actually, Higgins is still doing a very good job. But then Rangers transformed Higgins into Prust. Which is not bad. Even Florida got a 3rd rounder out of Vancouver. And Vancouver got the very good Higgins. Everybody kinda did good with him. We still got at least 3 very good seasons. Nucks only had 2 so far.

I hear you. I liked him. He has some home issue a lot like Nygren now. He's a good hockey player. Gainey was out to lunch, but hey, He lost his daughter in a freak boating incident and who knows where his head was at. It sure wasn't hockey.

Not sure if all this went down before or after but how do you carry on after that?

 

[SAKS AVENUE]

And yet this great plan of his started with trying to get MUCH bigger as a team and at the center position by trying to get Sundin and Lecavalier. He wanted a BIGGER team that ended up to be.....Gomez, Gionta and Cammy. Great plan.

And sorry, but I will NEVER buy that the Gomez acquisition had ANY relation to acquiring the other 2. People has to stop with that crap. Nobody cared about Gomez. That's like thinking we should acquire Brad Richards right now so that it would attract Martin St.Louis to ask for a trade....Come on. The only think that attracted Gionta and Cammy was MASSIVE OVERPAYMENT. When your boss in Jersey who still wants you, tells you, when he learned about the Habs offer, to stop talking to him, run and sign in 3 copies the offer....you KNOW that it was insanely way too massive to pass. With or without Gomez, people think he would not have come here for that same offer if Gomez would not have been here?

You are right, but, the thinking behind getting Gio back with Gomez and it maybe working was a risk worth taking. Add Cammy and the what ifs? It had to be a part of his plan.

Hail marry all the way no doubt!!!!!!

 

[Cole Caulifield]

He did it 'cause he had struck out with Sundin and Lecavalier and wanted to end the Koivu saga. He HAD to find a C and put himself in the worst of position. Question is....why did we have to move from the Koivu saga? And wasn,t there other options than Gomez? And did we ever talk about getting rid of our 1st rounder instead of McDonagh. Tons of other possibilities that I hope was looked at but clearly, it probably never was. So you never win in a position of weakness, and we were. And didn't win.

We so should have signed Koivu to another 1-year deal while continuing to work on improving the center situation. You just don't jump off a plane without a parachute which is what we did that summer.

And then, did you read my last paragraph of the post you replied to? What if that journalist is right about Gauthier's input?

Yep, edited my post. Look up.

 

[NobleSix]

Bad trade. Get over it and move on.

If we hadn't have traded him, Subban most likely doesn't get called up in the playoffs, and stays in Hamilton the next season, and doesn't become the player he is today. Or maybe Subban is traded instead of McDonagh in a different deal. Nobody knows what the effects would have been.

The bottom line is that we can't change what happened, and everyone should just get over it and count our blessings that we potentially have a franchise goaltender, defenseman, and forward all at the same time.

 

[habs03]

Too many unknown factors IMO

If Gauthier was really in charge the whole time, why would he even have drafted McD in the first place?

Gainey daughter was lost in 06, and it's far more believe to say that Gauthier had more power during that when Gainey actually took a leave if absence and Gauthier was an interm GM than to believe that Gauthier was running the show in 09-10 at the time of the Gomez deal when just 2 months before Gainey thought he was good enough to not be only a GM but coach the team after he fired Carbo.

And Gauthier was a head of pro scouting, McD was not even a pro yet at the time if the trade. There is no reason why Gainey shouldn't have asked Timmins for his input.

I really don't even blame the pro scout much for the Gomez deal, other then at the end, I think he played like we all expected him to play like, and the same way he played most of his career, a 50-60 point centre, I while doubt Gauthier went to Gainey and said this guy is now going to be a 80 point centre in his 30's.

I love Gainey, the man loves this team, he did do some good for the team, but sadly got desperate and made a bad move.

How the hell can you put it on Timmins..or fully on Gainey for that matter? Especially in a thread that states that Sather never even saw McDonagh..which tells you the pro scouts had a large stake in that deal. Sather has hired good pro scouts through the years and that;s saved his bacon..Gainey hired a poor one in Gauthier, and then worsened the situation by recommending him for the GM post when he stepped down...Gainey bringing Gauthier into the fold set the club back five years to a decade. Gainey's biggest mistake wasn't pulling the trigger on that deal..it was in hiring Gauthier in the first place.

GM's hire scouts to do their jobs....it was Gauthier's job to look at the Gomez's and McDonagh's..it was Timmins job to run the draft. GM's stay around the parent team most of the time..they get out to scout the odd game, but that is down the pecking order in GM duties...that's why they hire pro and amateur scouts. Who you hire is the most important decisions a GM can make. With the odd exception like Burke and Keenan and GM's of that ilk..they let their scouts do their jobs.

I talked to Trevor right after the deal...trust me..he did not endorse dealing McDonagh. I believe his first words were "he's my baby." He was devastated.

How was it Gauthier job to look at McD, he had yet to turn pro?

It's funny that you mention that a GM job is to hire good scouts, isn't it funny that one of Gauthier first moves after being named GM was to fire a bunch of Gainey scouts, and hire new ones, all of which have been kept on by Bergevin expect for Ryan Jankowski who left to work for Hockey Canada.

I mean for a guy with is much power being Gainey right hand man, odd that he made such a big change only after getting the GM job.

Btw any inside info helps, so by saying that Timmins aid he didn't endorse the deal, does that mean Gainey spoke to him about it before it was done, or was that his reaction to finding out about it.

 

[highstick14*]

We won the Kovalev trade. They won the McDonagh trade. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Deal with it, and move on.

 

[Em Ancien]

People can deflect blame all they want, when Gainey comes out and says pro scouting gave him a good report on Niinimaa, you have to wonder 1) why the hell Gauthier still had a job, 2) why Gainey would ever listen to that guy again and 3) why wouldn't have Gauthier told him Gomez was actually a stud #1, which would make a lot of sense in regards to what transpired.

Overall fail from Gainey and the whole pro scouting staff, namely Gauthier.

 

[dre2112]

I read that Gauthier was unimpressed by McDonagh after his WJC performance and didn't care much for him

 

[DAChampion]

It's time to move on in my opinion.