News Article: Sather on Mcdonagh "I'd never seen him play"

[Cole Caulifield]

That's why GMs hire scouts. Makes me hate Gauthier even more.

The McDo for Gomez trade has nothing to do with scouts.

You don't need your scout to tell you that Gomez is ridiculously overpaid and has negative value. If you do, then you are not fit to be GM. Everyone knows these guys. Especially those who play in the same conference. Did Gainey really need scouting reports on Gomez?

He got fleeced in a trade. You can't lay the blame at the feet of pro scouting on this one.

Where scouting will help you is in the Weaver/Weise type deals.

Hell, I bet that Sather didn't consult anyone when he made the trade and was just ridiculously ecstatic that someone was willing to give him a player drafted in the first round, and former 30 goal scorer on a cheap deal for a guy he wanted to get rid of who had negative value...

It was a trade where Gainey was completely desperate to find a 1st line center after other bad deals fell through. He had previously decided to let about half the team leave via free agency at the same time with zero back up plan and thought it would be a great idea to sign whatever priciest UFAs were available and build a team like that.

This one is 100% ALL on Gainey.

 

[yianik]

I know we can overdo it by torturing ourselves with mega blunder trades like this, but its a good thing to not forget and for the media to have a story on it once in a while.

Its good because I think a guy like MB is well aware of our history of mega blunder trades so that maybe helps him be cautious and be sure he has good people around him.

I also think its good because the fans and media used to give GMs free passes due to our great success rates. So when GMs made stupid moves I think there was a ... he knows what he is doing reaction, or that the move had to be made because of the players attitude, blah , blah, blah. Well, no more. We are watching.

 

[Richiebottles]

People need to look at this another way. If we keep McD it is highly unlikely we get Galchenyuk and we would probably still be stuck with Gauthier or Gainey as GM.

Bad trades happen. So what... I bet Buffalo( or was it SJ ?) would like Gorges and Pacioretty instead of a guy who is retired.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

Can we just forget about Gaineys tenure as GM? Just black out those years of **** and move on.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Hard to tell how the team would have handle his development too , he might have turned out completely different if he'd stayed with us. The Rangers placed him on a fast development curve, let him stay in Wisconsin one more season than signed him to a pro deal in 2010 and gave him 47 games with the big club his very first year. That not the M.O our team had back then with prospects, especially not with defenseman. With us he may very well have had a much slower curve, gotten lost in the shuffle and then seen younger prospect pass him to the finish line, never reaching his potential.
OR things could have been exactly the same with us and he'd be in our top 3 on the blue line as we speak. The only thing we can judge with some certainty is if the trade, at the time, was a smart one or not. To me the answer was and still is clearly no, for a number of factors, mainly Gomez's contract at the time. But that's all water under the bridge now anyway, it's fun to speculate but it's best not to dwell on those things too much . We're in a better place now than we were back then, let's be happy with that

 

[Runner77]

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/21/leiweke-didnt-want-darryl-sutter



or am I out of the loop, and we've moved on from this?

Why aren't you posting this on the Rags' forum? You're no Habs fan.

 

[Whitesnake]

This one is 100% ALL on Gainey.

I will choose to believe that if Gauthier tells Gainey "Are you ****ing mad or are you insanely stupid???" Gainey doesn't do the deal. So yes, I'll blame the GM first....but Gauthier gets a share of it as well. I'm sorry but the day that the rest of the league are able to appoint guys like Jim Benning, Jim Nill and others assistant GM's in a head GM job, it means that those guys do more than just answering the phone. So if an assistant GM's gets recognize for his work, he also has to share the blame at one point.

General managers trust their scouts to make proper identifications. Then they make the deals. Gauthier made the identification that Gomez would be a good acquisition. My BIGGEST question is....I hope that Timmins didn't made the identification that we could get rid of McDonagh...Seems that he didn't and was pissed about it which then means that Gainey and Gauthier didn,t care what Timmins had to say....Even worst mistake there.

 

[Scintillating10]

People need to look at this another way. If we keep McD it is highly unlikely we get Galchenyuk and we would probably still be stuck with Gauthier or Gainey as GM.

Bad trades happen. So what... I bet Buffalo( or was it SJ ?) would like Gorges and Pacioretty instead of a guy who is retired.

We probably would have Teravainen instead though. He may end up better than Galchenyuk.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

I will choose to believe that if Gauthier tells Gainey "Are you ****ing mad or are you insanely stupid???" Gainey doesn't do the deal. So yes, I'll blame the GM first....but Gauthier gets a share of it as well. I'm sorry but the day that the rest of the league are able to appoint guys like Jim Benning, Jim Nill and others assistant GM's in a head GM job, it means that those guys do more than just answering the phone. So if an assistant GM's gets recognize for his work, he also has to share the blame at one point.

General managers trust their scouts to make proper identifications. Then they make the deals. Gauthier made the identification that Gomez would be a good acquisition. My BIGGEST question is....I hope that Timmins didn't made the identification that we could get rid of McDonagh...Seems that he didn't and was pissed about it which then means that Gainey and Gauthier didn,t care what Timmins had to say....Even worst mistake there.

Like he said, if you needed to hire someone to tell you how terrible Gomez was you shouldn't be anywhere near any NHL team. It seems very obvious that Gainey had a "plan" to reunite the midgets and common sense wasn't going to stop him.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I will choose to believe that if Gauthier tells Gainey "Are you ****ing mad or are you insanely stupid???" Gainey doesn't do the deal. So yes, I'll blame the GM first....but Gauthier gets a share of it as well. I'm sorry but the day that the rest of the league are able to appoint guys like Jim Benning, Jim Nill and others assistant GM's in a head GM job, it means that those guys do more than just answering the phone. So if an assistant GM's gets recognize for his work, he also has to share the blame at one point.

General managers trust their scouts to make proper identifications. Then they make the deals. Gauthier made the identification that Gomez would be a good acquisition. My BIGGEST question is....I hope that Timmins didn't made the identification that we could get rid of McDonagh...Seems that he didn't and was pissed about it which then means that Gainey and Gauthier didn,t care what Timmins had to say....Even worst mistake there.

The problem wasn't so much acquiring Gomez... he wasn't very good but he was "okay" even if vastly overpaid. The real problem was giving something of value for him. The GM is the one negotiating... he's the one who set up half his team to be UFA at the same time and chose to let everyone go with zero plan. He's the one who was desperate to replace Koivu with any other center. It's not like Gauthier could turn around and point the finger at Getzlaf, Bergeron, Datsyuk and tell Gainey to go get them. He pointed the finger at the one #1 center who was available. And obviously, he wasn't the first choice, possibly not even the 2nd choice, and he was available for a reason. At this point, it's up to the GM not to get totally fleeced in the deal.

Why are we (you) so inclined to throw the blame at Gauthier's feet but not willing to point the finger at Timmins, when it's exactly the same thing. Couldn't Gainey have done exactly the same with Gauthier's opinion as he did with Timmins (ie disregard it or not even consult?). Why is Timmins getting the benefit of the doubt but Gauthier is blamed ? Blamed for the GM's mistakes at that.

Besides... even if Timmins pointed at McDo, and Gauthier pointed at Gomez, and Gainey was merely an unfortunate victim of incompetence around him... it's still 100% his fault for either hiring or keeping those incompetents in place and relying on their opinions. So ultimately, it's all his fault anyway.

And Gauthier must be valued somehow because he was picked up near instantly by a winning organization like the hawks whom everyone adulates. Gauthier was a freak and a weirdo and just didn't give off the right vibe to the players and the people in the organization. He was not fit to be GM here, or anywhere else. But he seems valued as a pro scout.

 

[Saintpatrick*]

Clearly, neither did Gainey/Gauthier. Timmins was visibly pissed when RDS asked him about trade though which was interesting.

No wonder. Seriously what the **** was Gainey thinking. I'm sure we could have gotten Gomez for a 7th and Higgins. Will never forget or forgive Gainey and Houle for their horrible trades that damaged this franchise.

 

[Scintillating10]

Desperation may had played a role in Gomez trade. Habs tried hard for Sundin, Lecavalier, even threw away a #1 pick for Tanguay in attempt to acquire a #1 center. Gomez had name of being good playoff performer. Montreal finished first in east in 2008, but that lacked that offensive center.

 

[Saintpatrick*]

The problem wasn't so much acquiring Gomez... he wasn't very good but he was "okay" even if vastly overpaid. The real problem was giving something of value for him. The GM is the one negotiating... he's the one who set up half his team to be UFA at the same time and chose to let everyone go with zero plan. He's the one who was desperate to replace Koivu with any other center. It's not like Gauthier could turn around and point the finger at Getzlaf, Bergeron, Datsyuk and tell Gainey to go get them. He pointed the finger at the one #1 center who was available. And obviously, he wasn't the first choice, possibly not even the 2nd choice, and he was available for a reason. At this point, it's up to the GM not to get totally fleeced in the deal.

Why are we (you) so inclined to throw the blame at Gauthier's feet but not willing to point the finger at Timmins, when it's exactly the same thing. Couldn't Gainey have done exactly the same with Gauthier's opinion as he did with Timmins (ie disregard it or not even consult?). Why is Timmins getting the benefit of the doubt but Gauthier is blamed ? Blamed for the GM's mistakes at that.

Besides... even if Timmins pointed at McDo, and Gauthier pointed at Gomez, and Gainey was merely an unfortunate victim of incompetence around him... it's still 100% his fault for either hiring or keeping those incompetents in place and relying on their opinions. So ultimately, it's all his fault anyway.

And Gauthier must be valued somehow because he was picked up near instantly by a winning organization like the hawks whom everyone adulates. Gauthier was a freak and a weirdo and just didn't give off the right vibe to the players and the people in the organization. He was not fit to be GM here, or anywhere else. But he seems valued as a pro scout.

You are too kind I wouldn't even say he was a good Pro scout. Some of the moves during the Gainey regime were lousy. We've had absolutely piss poor pro scouting till now.

 

[Whitesnake]

Like he said, if you needed to hire someone to tell you how terrible Gomez was you shouldn't be anywhere near any NHL team. It seems very obvious that Gainey had a "plan" to reunite the midgets and common sense wasn't going to stop him.

True. Unless someone tells him it's a terrible mistake. If somebody mentions him...."Well I don't care" Or "It could go either way", of course the GM will then go with his own decision. But I don't see how your right hand man should be totally against the decision and yet the GM still goes with it. But that's something we will never know. Even if Gainey comes out and say how he is the only and sole responsible for that terrible trade, as a team player, I would never expect anything else from him. You then only need Gauthier to come out and say that he played also a role. Not sure we'll ever see that.

 

[Whitesnake]

Why are we (you) so inclined to throw the blame at Gauthier's feet but not willing to point the finger at Timmins, when it's exactly the same thing. Couldn't Gainey have done exactly the same with Gauthier's opinion as he did with Timmins (ie disregard it or not even consult?). Why is Timmins getting the benefit of the doubt but Gauthier is blamed ? Blamed for the GM's mistakes at that.

Besides... even if Timmins pointed at McDo, and Gauthier pointed at Gomez, and Gainey was merely an unfortunate victim of incompetence around him... it's still 100% his fault for either hiring or keeping those incompetents in place and relying on their opinions. So ultimately, it's all his fault anyway.

And Gauthier must be valued somehow because he was picked up near instantly by a winning organization like the hawks whom everyone adulates. Gauthier was a freak and a weirdo and just didn't give off the right vibe to the players and the people in the organization. He was not fit to be GM here, or anywhere else. But he seems valued as a pro scout.

Well I will not point the finger towards Timmins for 2 reasons. First....he had just drafted McDonagh 2 years before. He was not going to abandon the idea that he made a mistake or that his player would not be as good as he thought he was, especially when you remember what he said about him at draft day. Yes, I know...they ALL say great things about their draftees...but he went out of his way and EVERYBODY in the scouting community praised the pick. And before you say that everybody ALSO does that....pretty sure the scouting community didn,t praise the McCarron pick.

2nd reason is that from Stéphane Leroux who saw Timmins right when the deal happened, he just stated that Timmins was freakin pissed. Doesn't strike me as the guy who agreed to this. So yes, the decision was higher up and made Gainey and Co who wanted to go in another direction....didn,t matter who it would cost, which was, yes indeed, a terrible mistake. But all this is making me get Timmins the benefit of the doubt.

Now....the PRO decision, well with everything that both men did together, I'm encline to think that Gauthier had a say. Did he...didn't he....we're not going to know that.

As far as praising Gauthier for a job he had with the Hawks...come on man. It's always more about WHO you know than what you know. Even in key positions like coaching or GM'ing. How many of those guys are fired 2 or 3 years after being picked by whoever. And what is Gauthier's job? Director of player's personnel. It does involve some scouting but also plenty of other things....I don't think that in the end he overtakes the Director of Pro Scouting or the Director of Player,s recruitment or the Chief Amateur Scout. Might give some opinions based on his experience. But I'd start thinking he's relevant again the day he occupies a GM job. 'Cause if he's so great, had nothing to do with Gainey,s decisions, and was actually great for the time he was wits us....I really can't believe nobody would think of him for a job. And then based on your kind of evaluation, we'll see what he's now made of.

 

[Grant McCagg]

How the hell can you put it on Timmins..or fully on Gainey for that matter? Especially in a thread that states that Sather never even saw McDonagh..which tells you the pro scouts had a large stake in that deal. Sather has hired good pro scouts through the years and that;s saved his bacon..Gainey hired a poor one in Gauthier, and then worsened the situation by recommending him for the GM post when he stepped down...Gainey bringing Gauthier into the fold set the club back five years to a decade. Gainey's biggest mistake wasn't pulling the trigger on that deal..it was in hiring Gauthier in the first place.

GM's hire scouts to do their jobs....it was Gauthier's job to look at the Gomez's and McDonagh's..it was Timmins job to run the draft. GM's stay around the parent team most of the time..they get out to scout the odd game, but that is down the pecking order in GM duties...that's why they hire pro and amateur scouts. Who you hire is the most important decisions a GM can make. With the odd exception like Burke and Keenan and GM's of that ilk..they let their scouts do their jobs.

I talked to Trevor right after the deal...trust me..he did not endorse dealing McDonagh. I believe his first words were "he's my baby." He was devastated.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

How the hell can you put it on Timmins..or fully on Gainey for that matter? Especially in a thread that states that Sather never even saw McDonagh..which tells you the pro scouts had a large stake in that deal. Sather has hired good pro scouts through the years and that;s saved his bacon..Gainey hired a poor one in Gauthier, and then worsened the situation by recommending him for the GM post when he stepped down...Gainey bringing Gauthier into the fold set the club back five years to a decade. Gainey's biggest mistake wasn't pulling the trigger on that deal..it was in hiring Gauthier in the first place.

GM's hire scouts to do their jobs....it was Gauthier's job to look at the Gomez's and McDonagh's..it was Timmins job to run the draft. GM's stay around the parent team most of the time..they get out to scout the odd game, but that is down the pecking order in GM duties...that's why they hire pro and amateur scouts. Who you hire is the most important decisions a GM can make. With the odd exception like Burke and Keenan and GM's of that ilk..they let their scouts do their jobs.

I talked to Trevor right after the deal...trust me..he did not endorse dealing McDonagh. I believe his first words were "he's my baby." He was devastated.

Seeing as how Gainey had no problem hopping behind the bench to coach I doubt very much such clear lines were drawn as to whose duties were whose. I also don't think Gainey just sat around waiting for people to tell him what to do as you say.

Look at Gaineys tenure and then Gauthiers, they are vastly different. One made decisive trades quickly and drastically, the other made small moves generally if anything and even had trouble signing players on a respectable time frame. This tells me Gauthier was not making the moves.

This thread is really trying hard to rewrite history and "save" gainey from his own ineptitude.

 

[Ice Poutine]

Bad trades can poison your life for a looooong time. I mean i'm still pissed we traded LeClair, along with Éric Desjardins and Gilbert Dionne to the Philadelphia Flyers in exchange for Mark Recchi and Philadelphia's 3rd round choice. I still think about that trade each and every day...

 

[yianik]

Bad trades can poison your life for a looooong time. I mean i'm still pissed we traded LeClair, along with Éric Desjardins and Gilbert Dionne to the Philadelphia Flyers in exchange for Mark Recchi and Philadelphia's 3rd round choice. I still think about that trade each and every day...

My Brother, I hope you are exaggerating greatly. If you are not, you must heal yourself and move forward.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Gainey should've left after that tragedy with his daughter. Still think this one's on Gauthier. Not only do I think he was running the team at that point but he was the freaking pro scout for Pity's sake. No matter what he gets at least some of the blame here.

Either way, it was a terrible trade. The amazing thing was that many here defended it...

Anyways, McD for Gomez, Subban's contract.... its obviously summertime now 'cause there's nothing to talk about. Can't wait for the draft.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How the hell can you put it on Timmins..or fully on Gainey for that matter? Especially in a thread that states that Sather never even saw McDonagh..which tells you the pro scouts had a large stake in that deal. Sather has hired good pro scouts through the years and that;s saved his bacon..Gainey hired a poor one in Gauthier, and then worsened the situation by recommending him for the GM post when he stepped down...Gainey bringing Gauthier into the fold set the club back five years to a decade. Gainey's biggest mistake wasn't pulling the trigger on that deal..it was in hiring Gauthier in the first place.

GM's hire scouts to do their jobs....it was Gauthier's job to look at the Gomez's and McDonagh's..it was Timmins job to run the draft. GM's stay around the parent team most of the time..they get out to scout the odd game, but that is down the pecking order in GM duties...that's why they hire pro and amateur scouts. Who you hire is the most important decisions a GM can make. With the odd exception like Burke and Keenan and GM's of that ilk..they let their scouts do their jobs.

I talked to Trevor right after the deal...trust me..he did not endorse dealing McDonagh. I believe his first words were "he's my baby." He was devastated.

This just makes me want to cry. He knew what we were losing

Did he even know about the trade or did he find out afterwards?

 

[Kriss E]

Well I will not point the finger towards Timmins for 2 reasons. First....he had just drafted McDonagh 2 years before. He was not going to abandon the idea that he made a mistake or that his player would not be as good as he thought he was, especially when you remember what he said about him at draft day. Yes, I know...they ALL say great things about their draftees...but he went out of his way and EVERYBODY in the scouting community praised the pick. And before you say that everybody ALSO does that....pretty sure the scouting community didn,t praise the McCarron pick.

2nd reason is that from Stéphane Leroux who saw Timmins right when the deal happened, he just stated that Timmins was freakin pissed. Doesn't strike me as the guy who agreed to this. So yes, the decision was higher up and made Gainey and Co who wanted to go in another direction....didn,t matter who it would cost, which was, yes indeed, a terrible mistake. But all this is making me get Timmins the benefit of the doubt.

Now....the PRO decision, well with everything that both men did together, I'm encline to think that Gauthier had a say. Did he...didn't he....we're not going to know that.

As far as praising Gauthier for a job he had with the Hawks...come on man. It's always more about WHO you know than what you know. Even in key positions like coaching or GM'ing. How many of those guys are fired 2 or 3 years after being picked by whoever. And what is Gauthier's job? Director of player's personnel. It does involve some scouting but also plenty of other things....I don't think that in the end he overtakes the Director of Pro Scouting or the Director of Player,s recruitment or the Chief Amateur Scout. Might give some opinions based on his experience. But I'd start thinking he's relevant again the day he occupies a GM job. 'Cause if he's so great, had nothing to do with Gainey,s decisions, and was actually great for the time he was wits us....I really can't believe nobody would think of him for a job. And then based on your kind of evaluation, we'll see what he's now made of.

Gauthier was not the GM. He was not pulling the shots. Even if he was endorsing getting Gomez, I don't think he's the one that decided every single player involved in that trade. There is zero proof of this. None.
You've never worked in a team where each member had certain tasks to fill and when all was said and done, you didn't really like some of your teammates work or disagreed with them?
Gauthier being Gainey's assistant doesn't mean he saw eye to eye with every decision.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

Could be worse for us we lost a very young promising prospect but look at Sathers track record:

Gomez, Redden, Rosivwal, Holik, Gaborik, Richards, Drury and I am sure there are some I have missed and now that waived Richards they will sign their next flop for big money.

Just bad signings. They didn't lose much with that. We made bad trades and lost guys we desperately needed.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

The McDo for Gomez trade has nothing to do with scouts.

You don't need your scout to tell you that Gomez is ridiculously overpaid and has negative value. If you do, then you are not fit to be GM. Everyone knows these guys. Especially those who play in the same conference. Did Gainey really need scouting reports on Gomez?

He got fleeced in a trade. You can't lay the blame at the feet of pro scouting on this one.

Where scouting will help you is in the Weaver/Weise type deals.

Hell, I bet that Sather didn't consult anyone when he made the trade and was just ridiculously ecstatic that someone was willing to give him a player drafted in the first round, and former 30 goal scorer on a cheap deal for a guy he wanted to get rid of who had negative value...

It was a trade where Gainey was completely desperate to find a 1st line center after other bad deals fell through. He had previously decided to let about half the team leave via free agency at the same time with zero back up plan and thought it would be a great idea to sign whatever priciest UFAs were available and build a team like that.

This one is 100% ALL on Gainey.

I blame both him and Gauthier.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

I will choose to believe that if Gauthier tells Gainey "Are you ****ing mad or are you insanely stupid???" Gainey doesn't do the deal. So yes, I'll blame the GM first....but Gauthier gets a share of it as well. I'm sorry but the day that the rest of the league are able to appoint guys like Jim Benning, Jim Nill and others assistant GM's in a head GM job, it means that those guys do more than just answering the phone. So if an assistant GM's gets recognize for his work, he also has to share the blame at one point.

General managers trust their scouts to make proper identifications. Then they make the deals. Gauthier made the identification that Gomez would be a good acquisition. My BIGGEST question is....I hope that Timmins didn't made the identification that we could get rid of McDonagh...Seems that he didn't and was pissed about it which then means that Gainey and Gauthier didn,t care what Timmins had to say....Even worst mistake there.

This. How many times do we hear/see assistant GMs work on deals? Look at Gauthier after he took over GM duties. He was atrocious.