Sandin Better Stay

[KuleminFan41]

I'm not saying it's Babcock's fault he only developed 2 passable top-4 D in 20 years, I'm saying he doesn't have much experience developing young D.

Other teams do. Teams successful at developing young D take almost the same approach without fail: let the guy play real minutes and send him down if it's clear he isn't ready.

It's insane to suggest that the guy with minimal experience developing D is smarter than the rest of the league and forcing guys like Dermott and Sandin to play hilariously sheltered low minutes is better than what successful teams do.

If the priority is trying to win games in October, send Sandin down and bring up someone safe and physical to play those easy 10 minutes. If the priority is to develop Sandin, play him in real minutes or send him down.

You are saying its Babcock's fault, or else you wouldn't be criticizing him for not developing defensemen despite Detroit not having a great track record of drafting and developing defensemen before ,during and after him. That's why I said your post is entirely irrational because you're blatantly ignoring that management is the one who not only draft these players, but also sign and trade for players. Sure, he may give his input, but the fact remains, he can only ice the players he's given to work with. My point stands, Detroit hardly drafted great defensemen apart from Kronwall in 2000 and Lidstrom in 89, which is 10 years apart. That's on Detroit, not Babcock so stop with the ridiculous complaints about not developing top 4 defensemen.

Oh, another thing I forgot to mention. Morgan Rielly was 5th in ice time in the 13-14 season with 17:37 and 14-15 season with 20:20 average ice time . Under Babcock in the 15-16 season, Rielly jumped to 23:14, nearly 3 full minute increase making him the #1 defensemen on the Leafs and he has been #1 during all but 1 season under Babcock . But yes, he has little to no barring on Rielly's development clearly....

 

[Martin Skoula]

You are saying its Babcock's fault, or else you wouldn't be criticizing him for not developing defensemen despite Detroit not having a great track record of drafting and developing defensemen before ,during and after him. That's why I said your post is entirely irrational because you're blatantly ignoring that management is the one who not only draft these players, but also sign and trade for players. Sure, he may give his input, but the fact remains, he can only ice the players he's given to work with. My point stands, Detroit hardly drafted great defensemen apart from Kronwall in 2000 and Lidstrom in 89, which is 10 years apart. That's on Detroit, not Babcock so stop with the ridiculous complaints about not developing top 4 defensemen.

Oh, another thing I forgot to mention. Morgan Rielly was 5th in ice time in the 13-14 season with 17:37 and 14-15 season with 20:20 average ice time . Under Babcock in the 15-16 season, Rielly jumped to 23:14, nearly 3 full minute increase making him the #1 defensemen on the Leafs and he has been #1 during all but 1 season under Babcock . But yes, he has little to no barring on Rielly's development clearly....

He has little experience doing it =\= it's his fault he didn't develop any.

Why is Rielly relevant in this discussion? He was already an established top-4 D. I am talking about the way Babcock deals with guys like Dermott and Sandin that no one else seems to do. 10-12 minutes a night of extremely sheltered usage isn't helping the team and it isn't helping their development. You're better off playing some gritty journeyman PK specialist in those minutes and letting Sandin dominate the AHL instead of playing scared of making a single mistake.

Teams that develop their own top D do not do what Babcock does with rookie D. There's no reason to think Babcock's way is better, there is 0 evidence to support that.

I look forward to your next straw man argument that no one actually made.

 

[Future]

Sandin needs to earn his minutes. So far hes been dog**** therefore his minutes are limited.

What games are you people watching?

The state of this fanbase. The team has been fairly easily handling our opponents with limited struggles to this point yet you’re calling guys dogshit?

Why are people so critical? What we’ve been doing so far has been working, what’s with all the complaining? Kid is 19, he’s adjusting to the NHL game playing sheltered minutes. That’ll change as he grows more comfortable and he builds trust with the coaching staff.

 

[Faltorvo]

This has nothing to do with Babcock having 0 track record of developing rookie defensemen. We should not be taking his approach as gospel and being ok with playing Sandin 10 minutes a night when there are mountains of evidence on other teams that it's not the right way to develop young D.

Rielly and Gardiner entering their primes and being surrounded with talent when Babcock came in is not evidence to the contrary.

In almost 20 years in the NHL, Babcock has not developed a single rookie defenseman into a legitimate top-4 option, he has only helped some established top-4 D polish and improve their games.

 

[Gallagbi]

What games are you people watching?

The state of this fanbase. The team has been fairly easily handling our opponents with limited struggles to this point yet you’re calling guys dog****?

Why are people so critical? What we’ve been doing so far has been working, what’s with all the complaining? Kid is 19, he’s adjusting to the NHL game playing sheltered minutes. That’ll change as he grows more comfortable and he builds trust with the coaching staff.

Teams been solid, he hasn't though. Lots of potential and I'm sure he'll get there sooner than later, but let's not pretend he's been good early this regular season.

 

[thewave]

He's just not ready

 

[biotk]

I'm not saying it's Babcock's fault he only developed 2 passable top-4 D in 20 years, I'm saying he doesn't have much experience developing young D.

The two mentioned are Kronwall and Ericsson. Kronwall was absolutely a top-4 D before Babcock was the coach, just as Zaitsev was. Yes, Kronwall had played limited minutes in 2003/04 with the Wings as he adjusted to North America, but he followed that up with being AHL D of the year during the strike year (when there were a lot of young NHL players in the A) and everyone knew that he was a top-4 D the minute he returned from injury - and he was. Babs had nothing to do with it.

Ericsson is an example. If what you want for your team's development is D who are almost 26 years old when they finally make the NHL full-time and 28/29 when they move into the top-4 (while other young D who immediately became top-4 elsewhere are lost of waivers because Babs wouldn't play them, because he preferred a 47 year old Chelios) then you really can't go wrong with Babcock. The team had Lidstrom, Dats and Zets and yet won a single cup under Babcock.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Muzzin 23:40 | 40 cf%
Barrie: 21:30 | 46 cf%
Ceci: 16:45 | 39 cf%
Rielly: 15:07 | 39 cf%

Sandin: 10:01 | 55 cf%
Marincin: 8:01 | 30 cf%

Considering Marincin was awful and our top 4 was struggling, why not move Sandin up and get him some real minutes? 10 minutes in a game (all 5v5) is not good development and it didn't help the team win

 

[IPS]

The two mentioned are Kronwall and Ericsson. Kronwall was absolutely a top-4 D before Babcock was the coach, just as Zaitsev was. Yes, Kronwall had played limited minutes in 2003/04 with the Wings as he adjusted to North America, but he followed that up with being AHL D of the year during the strike year (when there were a lot of young NHL players in the A) and everyone knew that he was a top-4 D the minute he returned from injury - and he was. Babs had nothing to do with it.

Ericsson is an example. If what you want for your team's development is D who are almost 26 years old when they finally make the NHL full-time and 28/29 when they move into the top-4 (while other young D who immediately became top-4 elsewhere are lost of waivers because Babs wouldn't play them, because he preferred a 47 year old Chelios) then you really can't go wrong with Babcock. The team had Lidstrom, Dats and Zets and yet won a single cup under Babcock.

MVP and best defender at Worlds in 2006 too.

I'm just too used to people twisting narratives and rewriting history to defend Babcock at this point.

As soon as Kronwall adjusted to NA hockey he was good to go.

 

[Lauro]

I think it's perfectly fine to ease him in. He'll get more minutes when Dermott is back.

 

[Orfieus]

Muzzin 23:40 | 40 cf%
Barrie: 21:30 | 46 cf%
Ceci: 16:45 | 39 cf%
Rielly: 15:07 | 39 cf%

Sandin: 10:01 | 55 cf%
Marincin: 8:01 | 30 cf%

Considering Marincin was awful and our top 4 was struggling, why not move Sandin up and get him some real minutes? 10 minutes in a game (all 5v5) is not good development and it didn't help the team win

If Sandin ice time doesn't increase by the end of October Sandin will 100% be sent down. I would rather him playing with Liljegren in the AHL for 30min/night then playing 10min/night on the Leafs

 

[jaric1862]

I think once Dermott is back their minutes will probably increase to about 15ish. Babs is relying heavily on the top 4 right now, not sure how sustainable that is.

EDIT:
Or maybe they send him down and bring him back up at the deadline? Im starting to think this is what they do. They'll keep Holl up and then they can bring up sandin without dropping anyone off the roster. Allows Sandin to log in 25+ minutes in the AHL, and absolutely dominate, then be brought up while he's in a groove

 

[DarkKnight]

All part of the process.

 

[hector morrison]

Muzzin 23:40 | 40 cf%
Barrie: 21:30 | 46 cf%
Ceci: 16:45 | 39 cf%
Rielly: 15:07 | 39 cf%

Sandin: 10:01 | 55 cf%
Marincin: 8:01 | 30 cf%

Considering Marincin was awful and our top 4 was struggling, why not move Sandin up and get him some real minutes? 10 minutes in a game (all 5v5) is not good development and it didn't help the team win

Cuz ...got expensive guys in the top 4...can't think of any other reason,except maybe Babs...Sandin looks confident beyond his years...I would see just what he can handle personally...play the shyte out of him,until he falters .

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

If Sandin ice time doesn't increase by the end of October Sandin will 100% be sent down. I would rather him playing with Liljegren in the AHL for 30min/night then playing 10min/night on the Leafs

Yea if we burn a year of his ELC and continue to only play him 10 minutes a night this would be the worst asset management in recent memory. We could potentially have 3 full years at an extremely cheap price (no bonuses in his contract) for him to play in our top 4 starting next season if we slide his ELC. Would offset him and Liljegren by a year as well.

He needs to play. If not send him down and have him and Lily play 30 minutes a night together and run Marincin-Holl out there until Dermott gets back.

 

[Stephen]

The two mentioned are Kronwall and Ericsson. Kronwall was absolutely a top-4 D before Babcock was the coach, just as Zaitsev was. Yes, Kronwall had played limited minutes in 2003/04 with the Wings as he adjusted to North America, but he followed that up with being AHL D of the year during the strike year (when there were a lot of young NHL players in the A) and everyone knew that he was a top-4 D the minute he returned from injury - and he was. Babs had nothing to do with it.

Ericsson is an example. If what you want for your team's development is D who are almost 26 years old when they finally make the NHL full-time and 28/29 when they move into the top-4 (while other young D who immediately became top-4 elsewhere are lost of waivers because Babs wouldn't play them, because he preferred a 47 year old Chelios) then you really can't go wrong with Babcock. The team had Lidstrom, Dats and Zets and yet won a single cup under Babcock.

To be fair to Mike Babcock, Detroit wasn't stockpiling youth during their contending years.

He got to Detroit in 2005-06. He left in 2014-15. In those seasons, the Red Wings only drafted Jakub Kindl and Brendan Smith.

A couple of other journeymen defensemen he brought along were Nick Jensen, Danny DeKeyser, Kyle Quincey. A couple of fairly highly rated defensemen like Sproul and Ouellett didn't really make it.

 

[Critical13]

Teams been solid, he hasn't though. Lots of potential and I'm sure he'll get there sooner than later, but let's not pretend he's been good early this regular season.

Stats say otherwise but cool

 

[Orfieus]

Yea if we burn a year of his ELC and continue to only play him 10 minutes a night this would be the worst asset management in recent memory. We could potentially have 3 full years at an extremely cheap price (no bonuses in his contract) for him to play in our top 4 starting next season if we slide his ELC. Would offset him and Liljegren by a year as well.

He needs to play. If not send him down and have him and Lily play 30 minutes a night together and run Marincin-Holl out there until Dermott gets back.

Pretty sure since he plays in the AHL it will count towards that since he is a pro

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Vaakanainen was sent down by Boston after two games. Valimaki was sent down by Calgary after 22 games, but he should have been sent down earlier. Yet another example of Boston developing their young Ds responsibly.

Valimaki wasn’t sent down, he picked up a high ankle sprain in the NHL. The Flames wanted to keep him in the lineup to keep learning the Sandin way until he picked up an injury that kept him off the ice for two months.

Vaakanainen wasn’t sent down either, he was concussed in his second NHL game and missed two months of hockey.

 

[Its not your fault]

He has little experience doing it =\= it's his fault he didn't develop any.

Why is Rielly relevant in this discussion? He was already an established top-4 D. I am talking about the way Babcock deals with guys like Dermott and Sandin that no one else seems to do. 10-12 minutes a night of extremely sheltered usage isn't helping the team and it isn't helping their development. You're better off playing some gritty journeyman PK specialist in those minutes and letting Sandin dominate the AHL instead of playing scared of making a single mistake.

Teams that develop their own top D do not do what Babcock does with rookie D. There's no reason to think Babcock's way is better, there is 0 evidence to support that.

I look forward to your next straw man argument that no one actually made.

Why worry about such things! Babcock is here for only one more year if he flops. So.

 

[kb]

Pretty sure since he plays in the AHL it will count towards that since he is a pro

Not if Sandin doesn't play 10 NHL games, His contract will slide.

 

[biotk]

Valimaki wasn’t sent down, he picked up a high ankle sprain in the NHL. The Flames wanted to keep him in the lineup to keep learning the Sandin way until he picked up an injury that kept him off the ice for two months.

Vaakanainen wasn’t sent down either, he was concussed in his second NHL game and missed two months of hockey.

Perhaps Sandin can suffer an injury so he can spend the rest of the season in the AHL (and into the next season in the case to Vaakanainen) without being sent down.

 

[thewave]

Not if Sandin doesn't play 10 NHL games, His contract will slide.

I am thinking the next two games pretty much decides his fate this year. If he can't handle contender type competition, he just isn't ready. Probably comes down to strength due to age. I think he is getting 9 as a taste.

 

[biotk]

To be fair to Mike Babcock, Detroit wasn't stockpiling youth during their contending years.

Amazing considering for years all we heard about was the over-cooking of Detroit prospects.

A couple of other journeymen defensemen he brought along were Nick Jensen, Danny DeKeyser, Kyle Quincey.

Babs didn't "bring along" Quincey. Babs played him in 13 games over a period of more than 3 years (averaging 12 minutes a game) and then he was lost on waivers because Babs still wouldn't play him and it is better to keep a 47 year old Chelios who can barely play than a young guy who immediately became a 21 minute a night 38 point D. He would have never been given the chance under Babcock.

Nick Jensen was 25 when Babcock left for Toronto. He had not played a single NHL game at that time.

DeKeyser, yes. He was 4 years older than Sandin is when he became a full-time NHLer. A great example of Babcock breaking young D into the lineup.

 

[Stephen]

Amazing considering for years all we heard about was the over-cooking of Detroit prospects.

Babs didn't "bring along" Quincey. Babs played him in 13 games over a period of more than 3 years (averaging 12 minutes a game) and then he was lost on waivers because Babs still wouldn't play him and it is better to keep a 47 year old Chelios who can barely play than a young guy who immediately became a 21 minute a night 38 point D. He would have never been given the chance under Babcock.

I've actually long maintained that Detroit's prospect pipeline was overrated. The reason they had to overcook them is because they had to allow smaller skilled players to mature (something we did successfully with Connor Brown and Andreas Johnsson).

As far as Kyle Quincey, they brought him back for a second tour and he played 5 years for Babcock.