Sandin Better Stay

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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As far as Kyle Quincey, they brought him back for a second tour and he played 5 years for Babcock.

Great. So all the Leafs' need to do is have Sandin play for another NHL team for a number of years and then he can come back and Babs will give him some ice time. I'm sold.
 

Martin Skoula

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Oct 18, 2017
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It doesn't matter who's fault it is that Detroit didn't have any young D, the point is that Babcock has no experience bringing them into the NHL successfully.

If every mechanic in the world fixes engines one way, and you have a guy who's never fixed a car in his life telling you that his completely different way is smarter, why would you listen to him?
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Great. So all the Leafs' need to do is have Sandin play for another NHL team for a number of years and then he can come back and Babs will give him some ice time. I'm sold.

No man.

The whole point is that Babcock's supposed inability to develop defensemen in Detroit is due to the fact that they didn't have a lot of quality prospects in the system to begin with, hence the necessity to overcook them.

Do you really believe that they've ruined Sandin after 6 days of regular season play?
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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It doesn't matter who's fault it is that Detroit didn't have any young D, the point is that Babcock has no experience bringing them into the NHL successfully.

That would be like blaming Randy Carlyle for his inability to develop first line centermen in Toronto even though the only prospect brought up in the system during his time was Joe Colborne.

He did successfully develop Danny DeKeyser into a workhorse defenseman. Kindl and Smith turned into low end NHL defensemen.
 
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kb

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Aug 28, 2009
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I've actually long maintained that Detroit's prospect pipeline was overrated. The reason they had to overcook them is because they had to allow smaller skilled players to mature (something we did successfully with Connor Brown and Andreas Johnsson).

As far as Kyle Quincey, they brought him back for a second tour and he played 5 years for Babcock.

Agreed with the highlighted. I cringe hearing "Detroit model". That was borne out of necessity, not because of a conscious decision. In a 20 year stretch ending around 2012 (I believe), they traded away their first round pick 10 times, and in some of those years, their second round pick as well. Their teams during a lot of that time were very strong. So they were drafting late in the first (if at all), and as a result of the strong team, it took years for those players to get to a point where they were good enough to crack the lineup.

The "Detroit model" was a myth borne out of this situation..
 
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Jeffrey Pedler

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Mar 21, 2018
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That would be like blaming Randy Carlyle for his inability to develop first line centermen in Toronto even though the only prospect brought up in the system during his time was Joe Colborne.

He did successfully develop Danny DeKeyser into a workhorse defenseman. Kindl and Smith turned into low end NHL defensemen.

Exactly, the coach can't be blamed for transactions made by a GM. I'm sure they have some input, but the GM has the final say. It's hard to tell if Babcock would played a Sandin like prospect in Detroit, because he never had one. Plus Mike Babcock was a defenseman in juniors, which probably makes him a better candidate for developing them rather than forwards.
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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No man.

The whole point is that Babcock's supposed inability to develop defensemen in Detroit is due to the fact that they didn't have a lot of quality prospects in the system to begin with, hence the necessity to overcook them.

Detroit didn't overcook D. Did they have great prospects? Not many. But they did have a good system in place to go out and find Europeans and they stepped into the lineup. But when it came to young D, Babcock either wouldn't play them until they left on waivers or Babcock wouldn't play them until he had no other options and they were old enough that Babcock was remotely comfortable playing them.

Do you really believe that they've ruined Sandin after 6 days of regular season play?

He is not ruined yet, and I doubt the Leafs' organization is purposefully doing all they can to ruin him, but gross incompetence results in the same thing. Game one was gross incompetence to the extreme. What has transpired since is only slightly less so. Lots of times players have a really bad season back in the AHL after a stint in the NHL wipes out their confidence. If the Leafs keep him up for another couple weeks with the same usage, I think it is at least somewhat likely that it takes until the end of the season in the AHL to recover to where he was before this season began. And for what? To play 10 sheltered minutes a game, when anyone else could do it? It's a waste.

My position is simple. We know how young top-4 D are produced. There are several ways of doing it. But playing a young top-4 for 10 minutes a game is not a way that works. Ultra-sheltering a young D is not a way that works. Sitting a young D on the bench for 10+ minutes at a time is not a way that works.

Everything about Bab's history shows that he is not the type who trusts young Ds or wants to integrate them into the lineup. I have no doubt that Babs likes Sandin. I have no doubt that Babs thinks Sandin is going to be a great D. But once the game has started Babs has to deal with the current situation on the ice, and no matter what the current situation is on the ice Babs wants the Ds he trusts the most out on the ice. Everyone knows this. It creates a terrible situation for the development of a young D. Perhaps he says in his own head now is not a good time. A minute from now things will probably be better. But once that minute passes Babs says to himself now is not a good time.
 
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Martin Skoula

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Oct 18, 2017
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That would be like blaming Randy Carlyle for his inability to develop first line centermen in Toronto even though the only prospect brought up in the system during his time was Joe Colborne.

He did successfully develop Danny DeKeyser into a workhorse defenseman. Kindl and Smith turned into low end NHL defensemen.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I don't care at all who's fault it is. I don't care how many were drafted.

Babcock does not have experience successfully developing top-4 defensemen. It does not matter who's fault it is, he does not have the experience doing it. That's just a fact.

He should be doing it the way teams who successfully develop NHL defensemen do it, because they have proven experience doing it.
 
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MLSE

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Jan 30, 2004
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I disagree that he should go to the Marlies.

He is one of the better defensemen, top 6 for sure. Earned a spot and IMO as the season goes on, his time should increase.
 

kb

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Aug 28, 2009
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Rielly turned out alright under babcock. Not a rookie but a 21 year old.
With 2 full seasons as a top-4 D under his belt by the time Babcock was hired..
 
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LeafsOHLRangers98

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Jun 13, 2017
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Pretty sure since he plays in the AHL it will count towards that since he is a pro
Nope. He was technically drafted out of Sweden and on loan with the Greyhounds so he can play in the AHL at age 18 and 19 and his ELC slides both years as long as he doesn't play 10 games in the NHL in each of those years.
 

kb

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Aug 28, 2009
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I disagree that he should go to the Marlies.

He is one of the better defensemen, top 6 for sure. Earned a spot and IMO as the season goes on, his time should increase.
How can his ice time increase if he doesn't get a chance to show anything but limited, sheltered minutes against 4th liners?

Did Charlie McAvoy start out that way?

He needs to play some minutes now, if only to take the burden off the top-4, which was gassed by the last few minutes of the 2nd against the Habs.
 
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KuleminFan41

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Jan 5, 2009
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I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I don't care at all who's fault it is. I don't care how many were drafted.

Babcock does not have experience successfully developing top-4 defensemen. It does not matter who's fault it is, he does not have the experience doing it. That's just a fact.

He should be doing it the way teams who successfully develop NHL defensemen do it, because they have proven experience doing it.
Why do you ignore stuff that you don't like? Babcock absolutely deserves credit for developing Rielly, especially seeing as this is his 5th season coaching him . The 2 seasons before him, is hardly enough development time to give zero credit to the coach, Rielly didn't become a stud in spite of the coach. Like i mentioned before, it was Babcock who played him as a #1 defensemen immediately upon arrival and he's only gotten better every season under his guidance. I'm not even a big fan of the guy, but to completely ignore his influence on Rielly because you dislike the coach, is incredibly ignorant . Just because you say the same thing over and over again, doesn't actually make it true.
 

Welsh Maple Leaf

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Jan 9, 2017
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I feel sorry for young/new players here.

3 games in and you're fecked if you haven't performed.

Big yikes.
 

Martin Skoula

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Oct 18, 2017
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Why do you ignore stuff that you don't like? Babcock absolutely deserves credit for developing Rielly, especially seeing as this is his 5th season coaching him . The 2 seasons before him, is hardly enough development time to give zero credit to the coach, Rielly didn't become a stud in spite of the coach. Like i mentioned before, it was Babcock who played him as a #1 defensemen immediately upon arrival and he's only gotten better every season under his guidance. I'm not even a big fan of the guy, but to completely ignore his influence on Rielly because you dislike the coach, is incredibly ignorant . Just because you say the same thing over and over again, doesn't actually make it true.

I don't know how you have replied 3 or 4 times now and are still missing the entire argument lol. I'll see if I can help you read:

Rielly was an ESTABLISHED TOP 4 DEFENSEMAN FOR 2 YEARS STRAIGHT when Babcock arrived. Babcock helped him polish his game, no arguments there.

Babcock does not know what to do with ROOKIE DEFENSEMEN (read: NOT AN ESTABLISHED TOP-4 DEFENSEMAN). He's too afraid to play them in real minutes and they end up stagnating playing 10 minutes a night on the 3rd pairing afraid to make mistakes. Dermott has not gotten any better under Babcock over the 3 years he's been ready to play NHL minutes. He went from being an elite all-situations AHL #1D to being the most sheltered defenseman in the league for 2 years straight. He has hardly had any opportunity to grow his game because he is not being challenged playing easy minutes against 4th liners. When he comes back healthy this year, what do you think is going to happen? Babcock isn't going to give him any of Rielly or Muzzin's minutes on the left side since he doesn't trust Dermott yet. He doesn't trust Dermott because he doesn't have experience playing against top competition. He doesn't have experience playing against top competition because Babcock doesn't trust him.

Some of us don't want this to happen to Sandin during his critical development years. He's better off in the AHL than getting a shift once every 10 minutes.

No top defenseman has ever developed from playing a full season of the type of usage Sandin and Dermott have gotten as rookies. Not one. They need to be allowed to play their game, try to dominate, and be allowed to make mistakes without getting benched over them.
 

MapleLeafs9

Registered User
Sep 22, 2011
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It sucks that he has to be stapled to 2 anchors in Marincin and Holl whenever he plays. He has looked good so far as a 19 year old even with those 2 next to him. Hoping Dermott goes to the right as his partner when he returns
 

IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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I don't know how you have replied 3 or 4 times now and are still missing the entire argument lol. I'll see if I can help you read:

Rielly was an ESTABLISHED TOP 4 DEFENSEMAN FOR 2 YEARS STRAIGHT when Babcock arrived. Babcock helped him polish his game, no arguments there.

Babcock does not know what to do with ROOKIE DEFENSEMEN (read: NOT AN ESTABLISHED TOP-4 DEFENSEMAN). He's too afraid to play them in real minutes and they end up stagnating playing 10 minutes a night on the 3rd pairing afraid to make mistakes. Dermott has not gotten any better under Babcock over the 3 years he's been ready to play NHL minutes. He went from being an elite all-situations AHL #1D to being the most sheltered defenseman in the league for 2 years straight. He has hardly had any opportunity to grow his game because he is not being challenged playing easy minutes against 4th liners. When he comes back healthy this year, what do you think is going to happen? Babcock isn't going to give him any of Rielly or Muzzin's minutes on the left side since he doesn't trust Dermott yet. He doesn't trust Dermott because he doesn't have experience playing against top competition. He doesn't have experience playing against top competition because Babcock doesn't trust him.

Some of us don't want this to happen to Sandin during his critical development years. He's better off in the AHL than getting a shift once every 10 minutes.

No top defenseman has ever developed from playing a full season of the type of usage Sandin and Dermott have gotten as rookies. Not one. They need to be allowed to play their game, try to dominate, and be allowed to make mistakes without getting benched over them.

Babcock is a safety first coach in all aspects and it is not a conducive type of coach for developing young defensemen.

It's the same line of reasoning that leads to him NEVER changing lines up, PP formations or anything. Matthews is killing it on the right side of the PP this year and our PP was stagnant for an extremely long time last year. Why the f*** did Babcock never make this change? Because he's too wrapped up in his own ideology and the status quo.

It's so infuriating watch people continuously rewrite history and narratives to defend Babcock's obvious weaknesses.
 
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sxvnert

Registered User
Nov 23, 2015
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He'll stay on as Dermotts partner.

Rielly Ceci
Muzzin Barrie
Sandin Dermott
 

sxvnert

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Nov 23, 2015
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Matthews is killing it on the right side of the PP this year and our PP was stagnant for an extremely long time last year.

PP was also on fire last October. I do agree that the current set up is optimal compared to last years but lets wait until nov/dec to see how the new pp coach adjusts.
 

IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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PP was also on fire last October. I do agree that the current set up is optimal compared to last years but lets wait until nov/dec to see how the new pp coach adjusts.
my bets are 100% on it continuing to produce at an elite rate. (though I could be wrong)

We're finally doing things the time tested and proven way: best shooter in the best spot to shoot the puck, best net front presence in the bumper spot, and not relying on 2 or 3 set plays all the time, etc...
 

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