ToDavid
Registered User
- Dec 13, 2018
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Korshkov looked good at camp and should have a strong AHL season. In his defense he dealt with some pretty serious injuries soon after being drafted.
Sandin Better Stay
- Thread starter Beyonder91
- Start date
Korshkov looked good at camp and should have a strong AHL season. In his defense he dealt with some pretty serious injuries soon after being drafted.
For more than a year Sandin has been among the most confident guys in the world it took one NHL game under Babcock to ruin that.
His role over the two games could be filled by anyone and should never be the role of a promising young D (Marincin, Gravel, Harpur, Schmaltz, Holl etc are all good candidates). He should be sent down immediately so he can play in the Marlies opener tomorrow. There is a reason that after 17 years of coaching in the NHL Babcock has coached a whole lot of great D - but none that were developed under his coaching.
His role over the two games could be filled by anyone and should never be the role of a promising young D (Marincin, Gravel, Harpur, Schmaltz, Holl etc are all good candidates). He should be sent down immediately so he can play in the Marlies opener tomorrow. There is a reason that after 17 years of coaching in the NHL Babcock has coached a whole lot of great D - but none that were developed under his coaching.
What are you on about? Sandin over the 2 games has been getting the sheltered minutes ever young defenseman should get. If Sandin can't handle those minutes well then he clearly wasn't ready for the NHL and will hopefully get sent down if he continues to play the way he did tonight and Wednesday for that matter. He had a few blunders during the opener too.
Jimmy Firecracker
Fire Sheldon.
Has Rielly not emerged as a #1 defenseman under Babcock? Has Dermott not developed into a top four guy?
Sandin did struggle against the Jackets cycle tonight, particularly against the bigger guys. But he will adjust and learn to position better. Hell yea, I wish he was 6'4, but not what we are getting. His poise with the puck, while limited has been excellent.
Man Bear Pig
Registered User
Strength didn't seem like an issue in the preseason but it did last night. Columbus challenged Sandin with physical battles. I think it's especially noticeable because Sandin doesn't avoid contact. Self-preservation just isn't a high priority for Sandin. He may need to choose to avoid contact more often in order to be more effective against certain teams.
GoonieFace
Registered User
DarkKnight
Professional Amateur
- Jan 17, 2017
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therealkoho
Him/Leaf/fan
He stays as long as he doesn't do dumb stuff like he did last night, total mental breakdown, Bobby Orr could pull that off, but Rasmus you ain't no Bobby Orr
he made mistakes out there, more than any game as a leaf in his career, but he still looked solid on a lot of other plays throughout the game
he skates well, has good iq and skills and actually plays pretty tough...i cant wait till he gets faster and stronger and better
he skates well, has good iq and skills and actually plays pretty tough...i cant wait till he gets faster and stronger and better
dangomon
Registered User
As others have said, I'd argue that the most important aspects of Reilly's development have happened under Babcock. He's not a perfect coach, he irks me often, but this is hyperbolic at best.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 79,262
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If Sandin has some adjustment issues moving forward, he's not going to be the first kid who shone in pre-season and then hit a wall at Game 10, 25, 41, 82, playoffs or whenever.
It's just the nature of pre-season vs regular season that the competition gets stronger. It's always amusing when people yell and scream about how a kid should absolutely be on the roster.
Rielly was a top-4 D with lots of experience before Babcock arrived (an extremely dedicated D improved between the age of 21 and 25. Oh my has that ever happened before?). Dermott is a young D who entered the league in an extremely sheltered 3rd pairing role and 21 months later has not progressed past an extremely sheltered 3rd pairing role. The few times where circumstances have resulted in him being moved up the lineup it has not been successful. This is Babcock’s 18th year in the NHL. During that time his top-4 Ds were either inherited (such as Lidstrom, Rielly) or acquired (Zaitsev, Barrie etc). That is astounding, and not in a good way.
No young D should ever be brought into the NHL sheltered like this.
Top-4 D in the league basically entered the league in a couple different ways:
They played low minutes in their debut year (but by low we are talking 14 – 17 minutes a game – usually as call ups during the second half of their debut season) and eventually became top-4 D. This has rarely happened and these D were older and had lots of big minute experience (ie hundreds of games playing against men in the SHL, KHL, AHL, college etc) and in some situations were not expected to become top-4 D, but circumstances changed that. Kempny, Greene, Gustafsson, Gudas (all 22 – 26 years old their first NHL game).
They were sheltered because they play on a team with a really strong top-end D and it was difficult to crack the lineup. Anaheim had been an example of that. They were shuffled between the AHL and NHL and played fewer than 30 NHL games in their debut season. But even still – in these examples that people claim that this sheltering of the D was extremely beneficial – they played when they were in the NHL lineup. Manson played more than 18 minutes a game for his 28 games. Montour played more than 17 minutes a game for his 27 games. Theodore more than 19 minutes a game for his 19 games.
They played very low minutes (usually under 12) because either they were not ready or the coach didn’t trust them so they were sent down for a year or more until they could play a top-4 role in the NHL. This usually happened after a game or two. Chabot, Gostisbehere, Ekholm, Letang, Giordano.
They played big minutes right off the bat (this is the case for probably 80% of top-4 D). If they became #1 D they usually played top pairing minutes right from the start. If they became #2 D they usually played second pairing minutes right from the start. If they became 2nd pairing D they usually played at least 16 or 17 minutes a game. Doughty, Keith, Heiskanen, Brodin, Faulk, Trouba, MEV, McAvoy, Fowler, Provorov, Sererson, Klingberg, Ekblad, Gardiner, Hamonic, Schultz, Johnson, Dahlin, Slavin, Werenski, Hedman, Carlo, Larsson, Niskanen, Petry, Yandle, Karlsson, Subban, Bouwmeester and Seabrook among others all played at least 20 minutes a game during their debut season.
They played very few minutes in a super sheltered role but they stuck in the lineup and eventually after a year or two they became top-4 D. Examples of this are – none. Of course there are none. It is a completely moronic idea that everyone knows is completely moronic, until they start using motivated reasoning to convince themselves of nonsense because they want to believe that their coach and team are acting intelligently instead of extremely stupidly.
Having a 19 year old D in the lineup playing 11 minutes a game makes zero sense. Any journeyman D can capably fill that role.
Being hung up about mistakes made a young D is beyond idiotic and completely counterproductive. The best way for a young D with top-4 potential to enter the NHL and actually reach their potential is to be thrown in – big minutes, PP and/or PK – encourage them to play their game, make mistakes and then learn from those mistakes. Either adjust to the speed, size and intensity of the NHL over the first dozen games or so, or not (and get sent down).
The absolute worst way for a young D with top-4 potential to enter the NHL is to be in a low minute, lengthy stretches on the bench, paranoid about making mistakes and the consequences that will come from the coach for those, not playing the game the same way they have always played, lose their creativity and stop testing their limits on the ice. You don't learn and improve playing 11 minutes a game. The Leafs organization knows this, but they have Babcock as the coach. Everyone else knows this when it comes to young D being deployed this way on any other team.
The quicker Sandin is sent down the better. Hopefully he can then move back to the AHL and carry on what he accomplished last season without missing a beat. The longer Sandin stays before being sent down, the more likely the chances are that he has a wasted season in the AHL as well.
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Martin Skoula
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2017
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I wouldn't bother, people here seem to think you learn to defend 24 minutes against McDavid by practicing defending against Matt Martin 9 minutes a night.
Problem is they can't seem to find me an example of that approach ever developing a top pairing D.
I agree 100%. People are way too much under the impression that you need to treat very young D like delicate little flowers and micromanage their minutes into oblivion.
People should take a look at how the Bruins develop their defensemen (what do they know, right?
). They threw McAvoy straight in, kid was playing sizeable minutes straight out of the gate, 20+ minutes even in the first couple months of his rookie year (and progressively more as the year went on).Shit even a young undrafted kid like Torey Krug was getting trusted with decent minutes and he had much more defensive concerns than Sandin.
That 14-17 minute range your referenced is dead bang on. Sandin should be playing that bare-minimum.
lmao jesus christ. People are so used to this organization being inept at developing defensemen they don't have a clue what it actually looks like.
Oh I know that. I am used to getting attacked on here.
Like when I said back on March 16th that Sandin would be in the opening night lineup (but would be sent down soon after because Babcock wouldn't play him enough minutes) and in the same post said that Liljegren wouldn't play a game in the NHL this year. Or at the start of training camp when I said that pairings indicated that Liljegren was not making the team. Or now when I say that there is only one way that you could develop a D worse than what the Leafs' are doing with Sandin (and that would be putting him in the pressbox as many fans thought the Leafs should do with Liljegren).
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I agree 100%. People are way too much under the impression that you need to treat very young D like delicate little flowers and micromanage their minutes into oblivion.
People should take a look at how the Bruins develop their defensemen (what do they know, right?
**** even a young undrafted kid like Torey Krug was getting trusted with decent minutes and he had much more defensive concerns than Sandin.
That 14-17 minute range your referenced is dead bang on. Sandin should be playing that bare-minimum.
Yup. Carlo too. 20+ minutes a game at 19 years old (despite being a 2nd round draft pick).
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lmao like I said, I don't know why people think the way they do when a rival organization like the Bruins is constantly pumping out good defensemen year after year. Jesus turn off the Mike Babcock post game interview and take a look at how it's actually f***ing done.
CantLoseWithMatthews
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2015
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@biotk is completely correct. Babcock has a horrendous track record at developing young defensemen. I think Hakstol is also really bad at it going by what Flyers fans have said. I really want Sandin on the team because he's easily one of the best defensemen in the organization, but his development still comes first. The situation he is currently in is clearly not conducive for proper development, and his previous game is the worst I've seen him look.
The benefit of the NHL over the AHL for developing a player like Sandin is the structure and flow of games are much easier for Sandin to read and react to than the chaos of lesser players. If he can't find proper rhythm in games, it's pretty pointless
The benefit of the NHL over the AHL for developing a player like Sandin is the structure and flow of games are much easier for Sandin to read and react to than the chaos of lesser players. If he can't find proper rhythm in games, it's pretty pointless
I'm 100% on board with sending him down if he's just gonna get f***ed around with extremely low minutes in the NHL. Mike Babcock will wreck a young player's confidence on the drop of a hat. Not only that, but his insane micromanagement just puts undue stress on the top guys too.
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