Speculation: Sam or Kane?

[Aladyyn]

Part of the problem with Reinhart is we are grading him based on things he doesn't do well.

When the new coach comes in, he needs to find another net front presence. It's not that hard to find a bigger body to play in front of the net.

Reinhart needs to play in Eichel's spot along the half wall on PP2. Let him QB the second PP unit. It'd feature what he does best, and he'd add teeth to the second unit.

Then we can grade him compared to Scheifele.

It's not like Matt Moulson had success on the 1st unit early in the season...

 

[Der Jaeger]

It's not like Matt Moulson had success on the 1st unit early in the season...

And.....

 

[Buffaloed]

Kane is a fantastic third liner on a contender.
IMO, he is not Top-6 material because he doesn't compliment top-6 play makers well by making them better. The play generally dies on his stick, for better and worse. He will want to be paid Top-6 money, therefore he would not be part of my plans.

Sam is almost the exact opposite on every one of those points. He also is still developing, where as Kane has peaked.

It's Sam, and its not even close.

Kane brings the Afinogenov quality. With Reinhart you get the no look pass. With Kane you get the no pass look.

 

[Sabretooth]

arguing that someone is better at something even though it won't produce more actual value to the team serves no purpose... it's just a big circle jerk

Your point is clear. I just disagree. I can see why you would say that, but to me ability to score goals only matters when putting it in the context of helping a hockey team win. Not going to beat a dead horse. This should just end at this point.

I think you guys are being a little unfair here. Your points are valid but you're only looking at the regular season. GPG has a bit more merit in the context of effectiveness over a 7 game playoff series.

That said, IMO we need Reinhart or a player like him for regular season success, and scoring wingers can be had at any trade deadline for 2nd rd picks it seams. I want Reinhart at 3C used as a scoring line. If all he ends up as is a better nick bonino idc if he was a #2 pick thats still a player and role we need centering a 3rd line that can win possession and create offense.

 

[Chainshot]

I care. I've been hammering that message all year. While everyone was coocoo for his ES goals.... we were still losing at ES while he was on the ice.

Even at Kane's absolute best scoring stretch of his entire career... we lost the ES matchups with him on the ice.

Even at his best, he was still a net negative player... that should've ended the conversation on re-signing Kane, or Kane's value, or anything positive about him going forward.

And he's one of the few players, who the system actually FIT....

Yep, I agree. I'm down with net-positive plug-and-play wingers. It isn't as entertaining in the short-term gratification of counting stats, but it's way, way ****ing more entertaining to win games.

Here's something for the "what if"-niks. What if Kane is replaced by a net even player. Not positive nor negative in his GF/GA at 5-on-5? That's a 28(!) goal differencial or .4 GA per game he played. It's mind blowing that people want THAT. Not surprising WHO wants it, but still... head shakes and finger wags are clearly not enough.

 

[Sabre the Win]

I think you guys are being a little unfair here. Your points are valid but you're only looking at the regular season. GPG has a bit more merit in the context of effectiveness over a 7 game playoff series.

That said, IMO we need Reinhart or a player like him for regular season success, and scoring wingers can be had at any trade deadline for 2nd rd picks it seams. I want Reinhart at 3C used as a scoring line. If all he ends up as is a better nick bonino idc if he was a #2 pick thats still a player and role we need centering a 3rd line that can win possession and create offense.

I think this is where Reinhart will really shine, everytime hes put in the spotlight in Tournaments or Playoffs he has played his best hockey.

 

[Chainshot]

Kane brings the Afinogenov quality. With Reinhart you get the no look pass. With Kane you get the no pass look.

I just snorted the last of my afternoon coffee. Well played.

 

[Samsonite23]

I think you guys are being a little unfair here. Your points are valid but you're only looking at the regular season. GPG has a bit more merit in the context of effectiveness over a 7 game playoff series.

That said, IMO we need Reinhart or a player like him for regular season success, and scoring wingers can be had at any trade deadline for 2nd rd picks it seams. I want Reinhart at 3C used as a scoring line. If all he ends up as is a better nick bonino idc if he was a #2 pick thats still a player and role we need centering a 3rd line that can win possession and create offense.

...Until he gets hurt in the middle of that playoff series. But seriously, I said I understand his point, I just disagree. Not trying to bash him.

Playoff scoring is something completely different to me anyway. Players can elevate their game/be more effective in the playoffs vs. regular season.

 

[Samsonite23]

I think this is where Reinhart will really shine, everytime hes put in the spotlight in Tournaments or Playoffs he has played his best hockey.

Ironically, I think both of them are players who could excel in the playoffs.

 

[stokes84]

Yep, I agree. I'm down with net-positive plug-and-play wingers. It isn't as entertaining in the short-term gratification of counting stats, but it's way, way ****ing more entertaining to win games.

Here's something for the "what if"-niks. What if Kane is replaced by a net even player. Not positive nor negative in his GF/GA at 5-on-5? That's a 28(!) goal differencial or .4 GA per game he played. It's mind blowing that people want THAT. Not surprising WHO wants it, but still... head shakes and finger wags are clearly not enough.

Soooo, Kane is bad because of +/-?

 

[Aladyyn]

Soooo, Kane is bad because of +/-?

No, he's just terrible defensively.

 

[sabrebuild]

Team control, cap cost, potential. This is a ridiculous thread.

On a side note, I think Kane would do well in the playoffs, but does anyone else think his body will break down in the next couple years? I bet Kane is a shadow of himself by thirty and on the downslope by 27-28.

 

[Butt Ox]

Soooo, Kane is bad because of +/-?

Kane is a pr nightmare for a club looking to regain credibility. Time to walk away. We have seen him become the player TM believed in. Cool beans. Perfect timing to part.

 

[Chainshot]

Soooo, Kane is bad because of +/-?

Kane is bad because of net negative at 5-on-5, which is nothing new for him. He's a ****** defensive player. That isn't +/-, sunshine.

 

[Montag DP]

I picked out the total goals reason, to argue... still waiting on the several others...

The citations I gave to support my opinion that he is a better goal scorer now:

• Career goals/game (significant difference, by the way)
• Goals/game with the Sabres (significant difference, by the way)
• Total goals with the Sabres

The reasons I gave for why I think he's a better goal scorer:

• He's a faster skater
• He has a better shot

And your rebuttal is: he's not as good a goal scorer because he's injured more often. That's a completely different question.

By the way, I fully expect someone to take this out of context and go on to tell me all the other reasons for why Reinhart is better than Kane. And I totally agree that he is, so please, no one do that.

 

[stokes84]

No, he's just terrible defensively.

Seems like we are using +/- as the justification for this statement. GF/GA is +/- disguised because nobody takes +/- seriously.

 

[SabreBlood]

On a slow team, Kane has the speed. He also has the scoring, the bite and the heavier game.

Reinhart seems like he was poisoned by Bylsma, so I'd like to see more from Samson, but we may not have that luxury if one has to move for a D sooner than later.

Fix the blue line and allow Eichel to set up Kane for 40 goals next season.

 

[Aladyyn]

Seems like we are using +/- as the justification for this statement. GF/GA is +/- disguised because nobody takes +/- seriously.

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/0...-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

Kane is terrible in basically any defensive metric you want to look at btw.

 

[sabrebuild]

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/0...-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

Kane is terrible in basically any defensive metric you want to look at btw.

Waste of time

 

[JOHNBOY]

What if trading both netted Blo a bonfide #2 Defenseman? Would you do it?

 

[YYCSabresFan]

Part of the problem with Reinhart is we are grading him based on things he doesn't do well.

When the new coach comes in, he needs to find another net front presence. It's not that hard to find a bigger body to play in front of the net.

Reinhart needs to play in Eichel's spot along the half wall on PP2. Let him QB the second PP unit. It'd feature what he does best, and he'd add teeth to the second unit.

Then we can grade him compared to Scheifele.

Agreed. Which is why I say that the verdict isn't out until this year when he's playing under a new offensive system and coaching structure as a whole.

 

[Reddawg]

What if trading both netted Blo a bonfide #2 Defenseman? Would you do it?

What does a bonafide #2 look like these days? I'm assuming you basically mean a top pairing guy for the left side, something like a McDonagh or a Nick Leddy, if we're talking about guys that could feasibly be attained (not including OEL, Keith, guys like that who are pretty much untouchable). Reinhart and Kane seems like too much to pay for a McDonagh or a Leddy, and not enough to deliver OEL. I can't see Duncan Keith ever being available at any price.

 

[sabrebuild]

What if trading both netted Blo a bonfide #2 Defenseman? Would you do it?

Both this summer? If it got me a legit #1 I would, maybe add. But then we are talking someone like josi or oel.

 

[yahhockey]

With all of the bickering that occurs on this board it is great to see general agreement for once. We need more of these softball polls to bring us together!

 

[darcyRegier]

What does a bonafide #2 look like these days? I'm assuming you basically mean a top pairing guy for the left side, something like a McDonagh or a Nick Leddy, if we're talking about guys that could feasibly be attained (not including OEL, Keith, guys like that who are pretty much untouchable). Reinhart and Kane seems like too much to pay for a McDonagh or a Leddy, and not enough to deliver OEL. I can't see Duncan Keith ever being available at any price.

Not sure about McDonaugh being a #2, I have him more in the #1b tier of dmen (#1 on most teams besides those with Doughty, Weber, Hedman, etc.). Also wouldnt trade for Keith unless all he cost was someone as valuable as Girgensons or less. He'll be 34 and is making almost $6 mil until he's 39. Just doesn't make sense moving forward. Also a lot of playoff miles on his body, just look at how bad Seabrook looks now. Chicago would obviously value him around a top 6 F value and I'm hoping the new GM doesn't think that's a good idea.

Sam doesn't move unless we're getting someone under 22-23 who's already a top 4 guy with #1-1b/2a projection. Hanifin/Ekblad/Risto/Rielly/Lindholm all fit that bill, with Hanifin and maybe Lindholm being the only realistic scenarios. Bear in mind trading Reinhart absolutely ruins this team's forward core until Asplund is ready to fill his spot, which isn't happening until 2-3 more seasons.

Stop with the trade Reinhart talk for anything less than Hanifin. Doesn't work with the window Eich/Sam/Risto/possibly Nylander core gives us for any shot at a cup.

Yes the D is bad. Tim f'd us on that. What about moving Zemgus for a guy who could play #4 minutes (a higher end #5 D) and sort of heals the wound until Guhle and hopefully Heskainen/Makar can take that. I wonder what MDZ/Dumolin would cost? Rags only traded a 2nd + 3rd for B. Smith and he's really helped that backend a lot. De Haan? Lovejoy? I'd be interested in Schlemko, had a couple mistakes against EDM but he looked pretty skilled for a bottom pairing D.

Not saying any of the above are/aren't top 4 guys, they all would just fit great into our 2nd pair as a band-aid at a much cheaper price than someone like Tanev. At least until we get some talent back there.

I would love to see Bogo rebound. He is a great skater and had great hands for someone who's 6'4. And he's young and has few miles. Don't like him at $5.2 AAV tho.

Also anyone know what Chychrun would cost? Yotes need older scorers like Kane and have so much cap space. If Chychrun is worth more than Kane maybe throw in Moulson/Ennis to that? Losing Kane is a big ES scoring hole though, that would have to be addressed in the upcoming draft most likely.