Speculation: Sam or Kane?

[Aladyyn]

Sabres gave up 53(!) 5on5 goals against with Kane on the ice. He only played 70 games...

 

[Jame]

Your argument makes no sense. I used his actual numbers, not imaginary "would've" goals.

ok sure:

Goals per season (which you brought up before) makes even less sense when Kane's average games per season is only 62 and Reinhart's is 79. On a goals per game basis, Kane is at 0.32 for his career, and Reinhart is 0.24. Kane is a better goal scorer any reasonable way you look at it.

Not when the discussion is about who is the better goal scorer.

yes, when that is discussion.

 

[Samsonite23]

I did no such thing. But perhaps you can explain why goals per season is a better measure of goal scoring ability than goals per game.

It's a similar concept that you disagreed with before. You mentioned Kane scores more goals from farther away from the net, so he's a better goalscorer. I don't care about that. A goal is a goal.

Now you want to count the amount of goals that Kane could have scored had he not been injured. Considering we know Kane gets hurt pretty much every season, I don't care about that either. A goal is a goal. Kane scores around 20 a season. So does Reinhart. It's tangible.

 

[YYCSabresFan]

I believe Sam could turn into Scheifele still. I think he's got way more potential than Kane has. He's cost controlled and will be cheaper on his 2nd contract than Kanes 3rd.

With that said we shouldn't be building around Kane, O'Reilly or Okposo, we should keep building around Reinhart, Eichel and Risto. If you think like that than you won't feel our window is nearing. Murray tried to excellerate the rebuild and this has posters getting antsy.

Did you watch Scheifele play before he broke out? I did. His lethal shot and ability to QB the PP from the half-wall were in evidence even before his breakout campaign two years ago. The year the Jets made the playoffs, he was snakebitten for the first 2-3 months but then amped it up to the point where he was their best forward during the stretch run.

Another thing to keep in mind is the difference in gradients of talent in Buffalo and Winnipeg. The Jets have 3 other real top-end forwards and 2-3 very good offensive defensemen. Reinhart literally has just Eichel and Ristolainen in that caliber.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I did no such thing. But perhaps you can explain why goals per season is a better measure of goal scoring ability than goals per game.

Anyway, I think we've beaten this point about goal scoring ability to death, and I have actual work to do. So at this point, I'm going to just disagree with you guys and move on.

Already been done..Because Kane is a shoe-in to get injured every year (and has the track record to prove it). It's inevitable with the way he plays the game. The goals he might've scored if he were capable of staying healthy don't help the team win games.

 

[Aladyyn]

If we're counting goals that Kane would score if he wasn't injured, can we count goals that Reinhart would have scored if he didn't shoot 5% at even strength this season?

 

[Jame]

Sabres gave up 53(!) 5on5 goals against with Kane on the ice. He only played 70 games...

Kane is the worst 2 way forward on the team. he has no hockey sense what so ever.

And the myth that he has a good shot... no he doesnt. His shot has zero accuracy.

He's a volume shooter,

His shooting % is not that of a pure goal scorer, and he shouldn't be referred to in those terms.

 

[Chainshot]

Sabres gave up 53(!) 5on5 goals against with Kane on the ice. He only played 70 games...

That's the biggest knock on him - he's a net negative 5-on-5 player AINEC.

 

[Jame]

That's the biggest knock on him - he's a net negative 5-on-5 player AINEC.

I care. I've been hammering that message all year. While everyone was coocoo for his ES goals.... we were still losing at ES while he was on the ice.

Even at Kane's absolute best scoring stretch of his entire career... we lost the ES matchups with him on the ice.

Even at his best, he was still a net negative player... that should've ended the conversation on re-signing Kane, or Kane's value, or anything positive about him going forward.

And he's one of the few players, who the system actually FIT....

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Trade Kane ainec.

That said I am one of the very few who has never regarded Sam as untouchable. If the right deal is there you make it... I'd likely trade Kane even if I traded Reinhart anyway.

 

[Montag DP]

Now you want to count the amount of goals that Kane could have scored had he not been injured.

Let me be clear, since both you and Jame are taking this tack. Evaluating goal scoring ability on a goals / game basis is not the same thing as counting imaginary goals. It only is if you use it to claim Kane would be expected to score more goals each season, which I never did.

Considering we know Kane gets hurt pretty much every season, I don't care about that either. A goal is a goal. Kane scores around 20 a season. So does Reinhart. It's tangible.

And that is a fair point, but the original post I replied to was talking about abilities, not total numbers per season. Goal scoring ability has been my focus throughout this discussion. You were the one who brought up goals per season. Saying Kane is a better goal scorer is not the same as saying I expect him to consistently score more goals than Reinhart each season.

 

[Jim Carr's Rug]

Kane is the worst 2 way forward on the team. he has no hockey sense what so ever.

And the myth that he has a good shot... no he doesnt. His shot has zero accuracy.

He's a volume shooter,

His shooting % is not that of a pure goal scorer, and he shouldn't be referred to in those terms.

This.
And this doesn't even speak to his bad shot selections, which often become turnovers essentially.

 

[Jame]

Let me be clear, since both you and Jame are taking this tack. Evaluating goal scoring ability on a goals / game basis is not the same thing as counting imaginary goals. It only is if you use it to claim Kane would be expected to score more goals each season, which I never did.

And that is a fair point, but the original post I replied to was talking about abilities, not total numbers per season. Saying Kane is a better goal scorer is not the same as saying I expect him to consistently score more goals than Reinhart each season.

arguing that someone is better at something even though it won't produce more actual value to the team serves no purpose... it's just a big circle jerk

 

[Samsonite23]

Let me be clear, since both you and Jame are taking this tack. Evaluating goal scoring ability on a goals / game basis is not the same thing as counting imaginary goals. It only is if you use it to claim Kane would be expected to score more goals each season, which I never did.

And that is a fair point, but the original post I replied to was talking about abilities, not total numbers per season. Saying Kane is a better goal scorer is not the same as saying I expect him to consistently score more goals than Reinhart each season.

Your point is clear. I just disagree. I can see why you would say that, but to me ability to score goals only matters when putting it in the context of helping a hockey team win. Not going to beat a dead horse. This should just end at this point.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

I was writing stuff, I'm not huge on either (I dislike Kane immensely)

I'd lose no sleep losing either, if we lost Sam and not Kane I'd be mildly annoyed

hopefully both go for D

 

[Montag DP]

Your point is clear. I just disagree. I can see why you would say that, but to me ability to score goals only matters when putting it in the context of helping a hockey team win. Not going to beat a dead horse. This should just end at this point.

I agree, it should have ended about a page ago when you and Jame started arguing with me about a point I never made.

 

[Jame]

I agree, it should have ended about a page ago when you and Jame started arguing with me about a point I never made.

back when you sited "several" reasons?

 

[Montag DP]

back when you sited "several" reasons?

Cited. And I did. Go back and read if you care and stop with the sarcasm.

 

[Jame]

Cited. And I did. Go back and read if you care and stop with the sarcasm.

ok, but only because I care...

You're underselling Kane a little bit. He's a also a better skater and goal scorer than Reinhart.

Ok... the reasons are coming right?

Sam definitely has that ability to score a lot of "garbage goals" and tip-ins, but I meant Kane is more of a pure goal scorer. He has the better shot and foot speed, and his season high goal numbers attest to that. That's not to say that Reinhart may not eventually eclipse Kane's number, but moving forward with a sane coach I see him as more of a playmaking center. He'll hopefully be putting up 20 goals and ~70 points.

To be clear, I voted Reinhart, but some people aren't giving Kane enough credit, or maybe they still have '15-'16 in their minds too much. He was a much better player this year.

Ok... so we're going to rephrase the same thing... I'll just wait.... the reasons are coming, right?

The sample size is too small to just throw out seasons that don't support your view. Kane is a better goal scorer than Reinhart right now, type of goal notwithstanding. That is a fact. It doesn't make someone a Reinhart hater to admit that.

still just repeating the same thing....

Last 2 years:
Reinhart: 167 GP, 40 G, 0.24 G/GP
Kane: 135 GP, 48 G, 0.36 G/GP

This isn't rocket science, guys. Jame, I'm not sure why you are bringing up number of points when this discussion about goals.

ok, first reason. total goals the last 2 years... im preparing for the several to follow...

It's not my fault if you failed to read the context of my posts.

To recap, someone mentioned a bunch of pros and cons between the two, but left out some things that I felt should have been listed as pros for Kane. Goal scoring ability was one of them. Currently, Kane is the better goal scorer.

hmmmm we're back here already?

Make a poll then. I expressed my opinion and gave several reasons for it, besides the one you're picking out. I certainly didn't expect you of all people to share my opinion, nor do I really care.

I picked out the total goals reason, to argue... still waiting on the several others...

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Why?

 

[Samsonite23]

Why?

He's on a rampage.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

He's on a rampage.

I meant "why" even ask the dumb question, to choose between Kane and Reinhart? To even think of choosing Kane over Reinhart is insane.

 

[Samsonite23]

I meant "why" even ask the dumb question, to choose between Kane and Reinhart? To even think of choosing Kane over Reinhart is insane.

Good point.

 

[Jim Bob]

I meant "why" even ask the dumb question, to choose between Kane and Reinhart? To even think of choosing Kane over Reinhart is insane.

Cuz of ES goalz, duh.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Did you watch Scheifele play before he broke out? I did. His lethal shot and ability to QB the PP from the half-wall were in evidence even before his breakout campaign two years ago.

Part of the problem with Reinhart is we are grading him based on things he doesn't do well.

When the new coach comes in, he needs to find another net front presence. It's not that hard to find a bigger body to play in front of the net.

Reinhart needs to play in Eichel's spot along the half wall on PP2. Let him QB the second PP unit. It'd feature what he does best, and he'd add teeth to the second unit.

Then we can grade him compared to Scheifele.