Salary Cap: Salary Cap/Roster Thread - As we look forward

[Honour Over Glory]

Rust+Simon still isn't a good deal for them. Simon doesn't hold much value and Rusty is too injury prone.
As for Sheary and Simon package, did JR get this idea from this board?

Why do you think Sheary is such a bad player? The notion that Sheary isn't valuable IS from this board and this board alone.

 

[The Greatest 101]

Why do you think Sheary is such a bad player? The notion that Sheary isn't valuable IS from this board and this board alone.

Probably because I watch the game?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Probably because I watch the game?

No, it's quite clear you don't.

He carries the puck well. He scored 18 goals on a bad year while playing RW/LW on Lines 1-4, doesn't get much powerplay time, was 5th for Pens goal scorers, was something like 3rd for ES Goals on the team, is not remotely as bad defensively as people think he is. He's a 3m/yr cap hit that scored 18 goals, you should look around the league for what teams pay for similar depth players.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Sheary's disappeared entirely for 3 straight playoffs, and he's looked really bad while doing it. He's not a guy that brings anything to the table when he's not producing. I get that he skates pretty well and has put up some numbers in the regular season, but he's not a particularly good player, or valuable asset at all.

 

[canadianguy77]

How many of those players had an 8 team list to trade too? Phil has a lot of say on anything that happens. Then it’s how much effect does that have on his value. JR will still want a good deal. He doesn’t have to “win” the deal but it still has to be really good.

Doesn't make a lick of difference if the HC and one of the 3 star players don't get along.

JR belongs to Mario and Ron. Sully belongs to JR.

Phil belongs to no one but himself. If Phil doesn't like coach, you either fire Phil, or you fire coach........or JR.

What would Mario or Ron do?

They're making boatloads of money...but was is because of Phil or the coaching? That's the question.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Doesn't make a lick of difference if the HC and one of the 3 star players don't get along.

JR belongs to Mario and Ron. Sully belongs to JR.

Phil belongs to no one but himself. If Phil doesn't like coach, you either fire Phil, or you fire coach........or JR.

What would Mario or Ron do?

They're making boatloads of money...but was is because of Phil or the coaching? That's the question.

You do not have those back 2 back cups without the kind of production Phil put up.

That same back 2 back cups is what has made Sullivan basically a god around these parts, something that is all too familiar with me with this team's history and the way it goes with fans.

If I am JR, I sit them both down in a room and tell them to just shut the f*** up, figure it out and then walk out and let them sort it out.

 

[Pens x]

Why do you feel like he's lost significant value?

I don’t think he’s lost value, he’s never had a lot of value.

Look at recent goalie trades:

Bishop was traded for a 4th round pick
Jones was traded for a first and prospect
Andersen was traded for the 30th overall and second round pick
Malcolm Subban was waived
Dubnyk traded for a third round pick
Mzarek was traded for a third and fourth round pick (conditional)

Jarry has played in 27 NHL games, and not 1 single playoff game. I think the fact that they like DeSmith better speaks volumes about Jarry’s value.

Plus, the following goalies are UFA’s
Hutton
Kuhdobin

A completely unknown goalie has very little value in my opinion. There just isn’t a strong market for goalies anymore.

I’d like to know how much Halak wants, and if it’s reasonable, I’d go after him. Murray is just so injury prone, and I don’t trust Jarry or DeSmith for any long stretches or playoff games.

 

[EightyOne]

Sheary is just a talented midpack player. Dime a dozen in the league.

What is attractive about trading him, is it costs you little in the risk category...precisely because he's run of the mill.

You hope the next run of the mill guy you trade for sparks some intense chemistry or is slightly better at some aspect of the game and therefore you make a net positive on the trade. Top sixish players are needed on teams but easily swappable when you're experimenting with roster build.

That's all.

To say he has NO value is wrong. But he does have flippable value that might end up better.

A player like Kuhn has NO value. He can be replaced at any time by anybody. Trading him gets you the same low-level return. But he won't be because it isn't worth the effort (only moves if part of a package that evens payroll).

 

[Riptide]

He looked like garbage pretty much all playoffs long until he was put on a line with Malkin for a few periods. There might be something to all of this.

IDK, the first time he was put with Sheahan away from Brassard/Malkin, was probably his best game of the POs.

 

[Pens x]

Source: Penguins Surprised, Made Strong Offer for Max Domi

Sheary or Rust plus Simon according to this. Rust and Simon would have been a good deal for Arizona. They got a fantastic deal though.

If we had of got Domi with Sheary involved that could have been a typical JR steal.

Wow, can you imagine if the Yotes would have done Sheary + Simon for Domi?

Montreal did make the better offer. Rust must want a lot of money....

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think, realistically, Sheary's probably a secondary or tertiary piece in a package. Certainly not the premier piece in a deal, but not entirely worthless whatsoever. If he's the secondary piece, the centerpiece is probably significantly more valuable though.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don’t think he’s lost value, he’s never had a lot of value.

Look at recent goalie trades:

Bishop was traded for a 4th round pick

Bishop asked to be traded in a goalie log jam, at that time, Bishop was just a really good AHL goalie. It took Bishop his 3rd team to really turn into the goalie people know him for today.

He was also 28-29 when he finally "broke out as a #1"

Jones was traded for a first and prospect

LA knew they were never going to afford to keep him and Jones wanted more than to be a back-up, likely behind the move in the first place.

Moved when he was 26yrs old.

Andersen was traded for the 30th overall and second round pick

He was a back-up on some of the best Ducks teams in the last few years, they finished 1st in their division and were at the top of the league in his first 3yrs, he was moved because well, the Ducks were smart to move him, since then Andersen is a polarizing goalie. His 2015-16 playoff numbers seem more like a fluke than what he's capable of.

Also, moved at 27yrs old.

Malcolm Subban was waived

Considering virtually every goalie that played for VGK did well and Subban sort of stunk in Boston, seems more like he's just not good and it's laughable he was even mentioned.

Dubnyk traded for a third round pick

He was also terrible for a few teams. Oilers, forgettable in Nashville, wasn't great in Arizona, then he found his way to Minnesota at the tender age of 29 and found a home.

Mzarek was traded for a third and fourth round pick (conditional)

Mrazek apparently had attitude issues and he stunk, he backed that up in spades for his "stinkiness" in Philly. I bet Philly regrets even wasting assets on him right now.

Jarry has played in 27 NHL games, and not 1 single playoff game. I think the fact that they like DeSmith better speaks volumes about Jarry’s value.

Plus, the following goalies are UFA’s
Hutton
Kuhdobin

A completely unknown goalie has very little value in my opinion. There just isn’t a strong market for goalies anymore.

I’d like to know how much Halak wants, and if it’s reasonable, I’d go after him. Murray is just so injury prone, and I don’t trust Jarry or DeSmith for any long stretches or playoff games.

If Khudobin was ever going to be a starter, he would have been one right now, he doesn't have the endurance to play the amount of games a start can and really hasn't been consistent in that regard, which is why he's a decent back-up at best and forever will be, his size doesn't help either. Which is why it's laughable when people think Saros is going to be the goalie of the future, he's good when he's a back-up, but in a starters role, he'll fail too.

Hutton, if Hutton was ever going to be a starter, he had his chances in St.Louis when Allen was having a mental break down. Hutton is 33yrs old and a product of the Blues style/system, he's not a guy any team with half a brain in management would sign thinking he's a #1 goalie, he's who you bring in to back up a guy like Jarry if he's the guy you want to groom as your #1 in a couple of years.

Jarry, meanwhile, is a 23yr old goalie with a high pedigree of winning and compete level. You know what he's done that those guys you rattled off, hilariously might I add, that they didn't?

Play NHL games at 22yrs old. He put up 14-6-2 record on a struggling team (yes, Pens were a struggling team for basically most of the last season) and showed that he's a guy with a bright future, but he needs to work on his conditioning to be able to handle the work load.

DeSmith is older than Jarry and played half the games Jarry did, the problem wasn't that Jarry was less preferred, it was more so that Jarry shouldn't have been playing as much as he did that early, if his games were cut to 14 as well, his numbers would be better as well. But he needed to play that to know what he needs to work on. Jarry is going to be a fantastic goalie, our problem is that Murray is 24yrs old, Jarry is 23, DeSmith is 26, anyone that thinks DeSmith is someone the team sees as a future back-up is kidding themselves. JR, if/when he moves Jarry, his next move will be to sign a veteran back-up which he will anyway.

And you're kidding yourself if you think Jarry doesn't hold decent value in a trade.

 

[Andy99]

Doesn't make a lick of difference if the HC and one of the 3 star players don't get along.

JR belongs to Mario and Ron. Sully belongs to JR.

Phil belongs to no one but himself. If Phil doesn't like coach, you either fire Phil, or you fire coach........or JR.

What would Mario or Ron do?

They're making boatloads of money...but was is because of Phil or the coaching? That's the question.

Well Mario knows and values elite talent and he also knows that you need a coach in the POs who can make adjustments like Sully has shown and DB couldn’t...I don’t know if the shine is off Sully from this past POs or not, but that question is not simple. I’m sure he’d like to keep both and mend that relationship...I can’t believe it’s to the point that Phil has to demand a trade essentially....

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Wow, can you imagine if the Yotes would have done Sheary + Simon for Domi?

Montreal did make the better offer. Rust must want a lot of money....

It's clear Arizona wanted a player that had played C before, they were trying Domi at C and he wasn't good there, meanwhile Montreal wouldn't develop Galchenyuk as a C when he was better there than as a winger, Pens had nothing that they were willing to give up or even had that would make getting Domi, worth while.

That trade made no sense now that we know what Arizona really was looking for.

The only funny part in all of this is that....


1. Montreal is in desperate need of a center.
2. Montreal went and got another winger instead.
3. Arizona flipped a guy that wasn't good at C, for a guy that is better suited at being a C.

Montreal is such a cluster f***.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Well Mario knows and values elite talent and he also knows that you need a coach in the POs who can make adjustments like Sully has shown and DB couldn’t...I don’t know if the shine is off Sully from this past POs or not, but that question is not simple. I’m sure he’d like to keep both and mend that relationship...I can’t believe it’s to the point that Phil has to demand a trade essentially....

The problem is that if this was just an isolated incident, it'd be easier for Mario to get the people he and Burkle have there to sort it out.

But first it was Cole, now there's Kessel.

Sullivan might be a problem, but he's a problem that can be kept in check, you also don't want to give your coach way too much power that he dictates losing great talent because he can't get over himself. Another issue is that there's a bad mix on the bench that is his supporting cast as coaches. Not identifying that is also an epic failure by the team if Camp rolls around and the same assistants are behind the bench.

 

[Doogle]

The more I think about it, the more I think a Martinez and Pearson for Kessel and Hunwick (with some retained) deal makes good sense. Some may find it underwhelming, which I get. But it does a few things:
-Balances L and R wings
-Pearson is a strong 5 on 5 player, and has excellent possession stats. He might not score nearly as much as Kessel, but like Rust, I think his game is well rounded. Maybe our PP suffers a bit but our ability to roll lines and score 5 on 5 improves.
-Gives us a left handed d who likes playing right; Martinez can lessen minutes for everyone else, including lightening Letang's load as well as minimizing Schultz's defensive zone starts. Letang playing 23 instead of 27 minutes should cut down on mental errors. Ruhwedel is a solid fill in but his inability to play closer to 20 minutes hurt the guys ahead of him.
-Gets rid of most of Hunwick's contract.

For LA, they can improve upon their low scoring and lack of speed.

Guentzel Sid Sprong
Hagelin Malkin Hornqvist
Pearson Brassard Rust
Sheary Sheahan ZAR
/Simon

Dumoulin Letang
Maata Schultz
Oleksiak Martinez
/Ruhwedel

Thoughts?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

There's no chance the Pens are going to retain in that deal. Getting a 92pt winger at 6.8m is already a bargain and a half.

Also, JR has mentioned he wants a RHD for balance. Martinez isn't RH.

I'd look at a team that has a RD that is being moved or movable and start there.

 

[WayneSid9987]

There's no chance the Pens are going to retain in that deal. Getting a 92pt winger at 6.8m is already a bargain and a half.

Also, JR has mentioned he wants a RHD for balance. Martinez isn't RH.

I'd look at a team that has a RD that is being moved or movable and start there.

With Phil specifically, i'd narrow the teams down(speculating) to ARI, LA, MIN, NSH, SJ, FLA.
I don't see him signing off on CGY or any Canadian team and TOR wouldn't want him back. MTL, mayyybe.

I don't think JR would require a RD out of a Phil trade, tho.
At the moment, i'd put it at 2 nice F's or a nice F and a nice D-Man(doesn't matter the side they play. Maybe a guy with a history of playing both).

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Another thing to consider with Phil is that now that this is all out in the open, the media/public scrutiny on him just gets worse and worse. This isn't a "Ah let's just forget about it" situation, I don't think. This feels like a Pandora's Box. Maybe that's too dramatic, but you're outta your mind if you don't think the microscope is gonna be on his every move/action/interaction with Sully from here on out. The Toronto media is a nightmarish Hellscape, but the Pittsburgh media ain't far behind once they turn on a guy.

 

[GhostofMikeJohnson]

I think Domi's closer to Rust + Simon in value than Galchenyuk, to be fair. Arizona was right to take Montreal's silly offer, but without Bergevin being a dummy, I think Arizona thinks about Rust + Simon.

Yup. All you have to do is look at the analytics... if you think Rust or Sheary + Simon is way off it is not. Look at Own the Puck, etc. Sheary pretty much outproduces with less icetime and shotsup.

 

[Peat]

Can anyone you trade Kessel for be the driving force on his own line?

Can Kessel be the driving force most of the time? Because he's never been the highest ES scorer on his line in play-offs and never formed consistent season to season chemistry with any set of players.

Not to mention Hagelin and Bonino weren’t that far off from Kessel’s EV production.

4 and 3 points higher respectively that post season.

Interesting thought that someone else has probably had, but I haven't seen it posted here. How do people feel about targeting JG Pageau from Ottawa and playing Brassard on LW? I actually like that idea, you get your long term 3C who can play heavy minute with Pageau and you also get a pretty clear LW upgrade with Brassard. I don't know what it would cost for Pageau, but I can't imagine it would be too crazy expensive. Rust for Pageau may make a good amount of sense.

If that doesn't float your boat, Rust for Bjugstad may also be an option that works. Bjugstad had a really good season last year, I'm surprised to see he finished with 49 points and really good possession stats while getting more Dzone starts last season.

Can't see Ottawa selling more than they have - they need to pretend they have a future at least - and he's cheap, committed and local. I'd do it if they would, but I doubt they would.

And I'm iffy on Bjugstad as anything other than a RW, which solves nuffink.

I don't know much about Clague (which surprises me), but Muzzin when he's on his game is a legit top pairing D. When he's off his game, he's still a top 4D with size. Given the window we have, I'd probably want him over a prospect where we don't know when he'll be ready, or what he'll be once he is ready.

Quick, calm, clever and put up a boatload of points in the WHL last season. Will be in the AHL next season.

I like Muzzin, but getting some cheap young high-end depth out of the Kessel move would be a priority to me. We're losing ours. There's some risk there but I think the reward is worth the risk. He's old enough to be contributing throughout the window.

I'd love a top-5 pick. But this team needs guys who can come in and be impact players immediately, without any real question like those that come with rookies right after they're drafted.

The window is still open for this team. I know a top-5 pick potentially extends it and keeps this team competitive years down the road when Sid/Geno decline, but if we're moving significant assets like Letang or Kessel, we're gonna need significant players in return who can step in and be effective/productive players immediately. Way too big a risk to bank on a kid to do that months after he's drafted--guys like McDavid, Matthews, Laine aside.

I think we all know there's going to be a guy available at 5 who will be a big contributor in a year, if not right away. Problem is, as you say, the risk.

I'd like to take it, but the rest of the return needs to keep us strong enough now that losing the gamble doesn't really hurt us.

Question for you guys on a Kessel to Arizona suggestion: how would people feel about a deal around Perlini and Goligoski for Kessel? I originally thought the Yotes trading Domi was a death blow for Kessel going to Arizona, but I realized that Perlini is also a pretty attractive LW to be a piece of a Kessel trade. Goligoski is obviously a top pair defenseman and Perlini is a good young LWer.

Not too giddy about taking on an expensive contract going straight into decline years. Part of the appeal of moving Kessel is reducing our risk in that area.

I’d think Jarry stays unless it’s an overpayment type of trade. Unless they think we need a more experienced back up.

Although restructuring the D helps out the goalies quite a bit. Maybe some game plan tweaks too depending on what our roster becomes.

The goaltenders were posting worst stats than the D. Restructuring the defence doesn't help unless they get better. They should, but put blame where it should be.

I can see them moving Jarry for a similar young prospect. Maybe better to take the money now and run rather than gamble on him becoming an established guy with more value, particularly if that prospect is going to see more ice time than Jarry this year (which they will if Jarry loses the battle to DeSmith).

 

[jay caufield forhead]

Phil Kessel has two Stanley Cup rings as a member of the Pittsburgh Penguins, and he's only been rocking black and yellow for three seasons.
However, Kessel would consider a trade out of Pittsburgh, as The Athletic's Josh Yohereports.
Furthermore, Kessel would even be willing to play for his former assistant coach Rick Tocchet, who is now the head coach of the Arizona Coyotes, per Yohe. Although, Kessel's $6.8-million price tag is likely too juicy for the Desert Dogs to take on.
Regardless, Kessel is coming off a career season in which he netted 34 goals and 58 assists for a career-high 92 points, so if he were to be made available, multiple teams would be lined up in an attempt to acquire his super-sniper services.
The rumblings about Kessel's potential departure come less than a month after a reported beef between he and head coach Mike Sullivan. Kessel was apparently furious about not playing regularly with Evgeni Malkin during Pittsburgh's 2018 playoff run.
Kessel played most of the postseason on the Penguins' third line, registering only one goal in 12 games. He is under contract in Pittsburgh for the next four seasons.

i dont know if any one posted this yet but its a part of an article.

Flip Livingstone

 

[Turin]

Rewatched a bunch of this last years playoffs this evening in my free time to see if I was insane.

Conclusion: Kessel clearly didn’t quit on the team, Murray f***ing sucked, Ruh isn’t very good as a regular, everybody was injured, Letang sucked in game 5. Just like I remember.

Murray should be better next year, third pairing is easy to shore up, hopefully people don’t get injured next year. If they trade Kessel so be it, but let it be known that it’s not because he quit on the team. Can’t belive that was even entertained.

 

[sovietsanta87]

Trying to do the math on how it is perfectly reasonable that Kessel be traded for muzzin/Martinez + Pearson/toffoli OR gogo/hjalmersson + perlini

Like in what world are those remotely close to the same thing? And really? Gogo making over 5 mil to play on the bottom pairing when we already complain about how expensive the defense is? We should absolutely be looking to trade Phil if we get an offer we cannot turn down. Otherwise he’s staying here. Arizona just doesn’t seem like a good fit unless they’re willing to part with serious assets, which they don’t have a lot of, and probably shouldn’t do if they truly want to build a young core.

Make minor moves to free up cap space and tweak the roster. We’re filling a pothole. Not repaving 28 North

 

[Peat]

Trying to do the math on how it is perfectly reasonable that Kessel be traded for muzzin/Martinez + Pearson/toffoli OR gogo/hjalmersson + perlini

Like in what world are those remotely close to the same thing? And really? Gogo making over 5 mil to play on the bottom pairing when we already complain about how expensive the defense is? We should absolutely be looking to trade Phil if we get an offer we cannot turn down. Otherwise he’s staying here. Arizona just doesn’t seem like a good fit unless they’re willing to part with serious assets, which they don’t have a lot of, and probably shouldn’t do if they truly want to build a young core.

Make minor moves to free up cap space and tweak the roster. We’re filling a pothole. Not repaving 28 North

The Muzzin/Martinez + Pearson/Toffoli deal doesn't seem too far off what other elite forwards getting moved got in 1 piece for multiple pieces deals. It would probably make us better at ES. I'm not sure that it's a deal I'd do, but it's mostly fair.

And we're doing whatever makes the team better. Minor moves aren't superior to major moves or vice versa.