Salary Cap: Salary Cap/Roster Thread - As we look forward

[Jag68Sid87]

Well Mario knows and values elite talent and he also knows that you need a coach in the POs who can make adjustments like Sully has shown and DB couldn’t...I don’t know if the shine is off Sully from this past POs or not, but that question is not simple. I’m sure he’d like to keep both and mend that relationship...I can’t believe it’s to the point that Phil has to demand a trade essentially....

Mario hated playing for Bowman, and he is only the greatest coach of all time. I seriously doubt he would side with Sullivan over Kessel on this issue.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I don't think Mario needs to, or should side with anyone. Let his GM do his job. If JR thinks the situation is beyond repair and thinks he can get value for Kessel, make the trade. If he thinks he can find some new coach who is as good a coach as Sully in all the areas this team requires of a coach, and that guy can also be a Kessel Whisperer who keeps Phil's head on straight and keeps him composed, replace Sully.

I just think it's way, way more realistic the former plays out than the latter. The odds of finding a coach who brings a system that fits our personnel to a T, has a voice guys will listen to, keeps guys in check as far as dumb penalties/barking at refs goes, and has command of the lockerroom is next to nil. The odds of that same guy being able to, well, let's face it, coddle Phil--actual nil. The odds of finding a taker for Kessel who will return a significant package? Might not be sky-high, or I think Phil might already be gone, but certainly immeasurably more realistic than the alternative.

 

[Andy99]

Mario hated playing for Bowman, and he is only the greatest coach of all time. I seriously doubt he would side with Sullivan over Kessel on this issue.

He might have hated playing for Bowman and he probably sympathizes with Phil but he sure as **** repeated that he wanted DB gone mainly because the Pens needed a coach who could make adjustments....he really appreciated as an owner having Sully there in 2015-16....

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Frankly, these Kessel proposals stink. If that's the best we can do and there isn't a big UFA fish we're zeroing in on, keep the elite talent for God's sake.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Frankly, these Kessel proposals stink. If that's the best we can do and there isn't a big UFA fish we're zeroing in on, keep the elite talent for God's sake.

Amen. The issue with a lot of the proposals (and surely most of the real offers) is that they're replacement level players. Is Tanner Pearson that much better than Blake Comeau that we'd give up Phil Kessel to make that switch? Muzzin and Toffoli are better than replacement level guys, but we're not getting both, and neither moves the needle like Phil.

 

[Shady Machine]

Quit on his teammates? No, I don't think it got that far. But he absolutely had repeated near-meltdowns on the bench and it was plain as day that his emotions had him mentally checked out of winning hockey games at that point. To argue otherwise is just silly.

I love Phil, and don't want him moved at all costs, but I don't know if Sully and Phil are going to get along any better as time goes on. Sully's a "buy in, play your game and keep your mouth shut" coach, and Phil's got some serious problems keeping his emotions/temper/frustrations in check. I don't think they're at each other's throats like rumors imply, but I am entirely certain that they annoy the absolute **** out of each other.

To argue otherwise is not silly. I saw nothing different in Phil's demeanor than any other time he was struggling to fill the net. Until those frustrations come out on the ice, I'm not ready to say they materially impacted his performance.

Hell, during the Cup runs there were plenty of heated talks on the bench between players including Phil and himself, Sid vs Horny, Phil vs Geno, Geno vs Sully, etc. I just think people make WAY too much sometimes of what they see on camera. Phil is an emotional guy on the bench and always has been.

 

[Shady Machine]

You guys think Kessel is going to quit in the playoffs chasing a three-peat coming off his best season? He couldn’t even hold his stick right.

Anything for the narrative. Let’s get Steve Simmons in here.

Exactly. This is absurd.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Amen. The issue with a lot of the proposals (and surely most of the real offers) is that they're replacement level players. Is Tanner Pearson that much better than Blake Comeau that we'd give up Phil Kessel to make that switch? Muzzin and Toffoli are better than replacement level guys, but we're not getting both, and neither moves the needle like Phil.

I mean, we have great forward depth. If that's people's argument for moving Kessel, it's a shitty argument because we already have that. If Kessel, Malkin, and Brassard are all injured in any year we're gonna have trouble, particularly if the bench boss decides it's a better idea to continue playing the likes of Sheary and Kuhnhackl (with 2 assists in 24 games between them) over Sprong when we're struggling to generate offense outside of Sid and Jake.

We had forward depth. We didn't use all of it.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think that’s being awfully generous

Nah that's probably what it is, but Pens have zero reason to trade him for that.

 

[JackFr]

That Mackey article is maybe the most reassuring thing I've read all summer. 3rd pairing RD, sign some depth, move Hunwick and Sheary. Thats what I'd be doing. If a Letang trade popped up where I'm getting a high end RD then go for it, but otherwise stay the course.

Hoping for Petrovic or Pysyk personally but we'll see.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don’t think he’s lost value, he’s never had a lot of value.

Look at recent goalie trades:

Bishop was traded for a 4th round pick
Jones was traded for a first and prospect
Andersen was traded for the 30th overall and second round pick
Malcolm Subban was waived
Dubnyk traded for a third round pick
Mzarek was traded for a third and fourth round pick (conditional)

Jarry has played in 27 NHL games, and not 1 single playoff game. I think the fact that they like DeSmith better speaks volumes about Jarry’s value.

Plus, the following goalies are UFA’s
Hutton
Kuhdobin

A completely unknown goalie has very little value in my opinion. There just isn’t a strong market for goalies anymore.

I’d like to know how much Halak wants, and if it’s reasonable, I’d go after him. Murray is just so injury prone, and I don’t trust Jarry or DeSmith for any long stretches or playoff games.

You are comparing goalies that don't have anything to do with Jarry. Anyone trading for Jarry sees him as a potential starter. Of that list, Jones and Subban are the only relevant ones and Subban had to be waived because he wasn't eligible to be sent down otherwise.

You excluded goalies like Raanta, Darling, and Talbot for some reason, probably because it didn't fit your narrative. Having said that, until Jarry proves he's an NHL caliber back up with potential for more, you are right that he won't have a ton of value. I'd say 2nd round pick is probably fair and I have no idea why the Pens would move him for that.

 

[Peat]

Amen. The issue with a lot of the proposals (and surely most of the real offers) is that they're replacement level players. Is Tanner Pearson that much better than Blake Comeau that we'd give up Phil Kessel to make that switch? Muzzin and Toffoli are better than replacement level guys, but we're not getting both, and neither moves the needle like Phil.

Pearson does what Comeau did last season (Comeau's career ES season no less) better, more consistently, and against opposition best. His underlying stats read better than Toffoli and they had equal ES production this year.

 

[Shady Machine]

Another thing to consider with Phil is that now that this is all out in the open, the media/public scrutiny on him just gets worse and worse. This isn't a "Ah let's just forget about it" situation, I don't think. This feels like a Pandora's Box. Maybe that's too dramatic, but you're outta your mind if you don't think the microscope is gonna be on his every move/action/interaction with Sully from here on out. The Toronto media is a nightmarish Hellscape, but the Pittsburgh media ain't far behind once they turn on a guy.

Honestly, I think Phil is fishing somewhere and doesn't give a shit what is going on in the Pittsburgh media. He will come back and do one press conference, laugh a little, and then not do another one for a month. Sully will say nice things, JR will too, and things will move on. That is what happens if he isn't traded.

 

[Peat]

Honestly, I think Phil is fishing somewhere and doesn't give a **** what is going on in the Pittsburgh media. He will come back and do one press conference, laugh a little, and then not do another one for a month. Sully will say nice things, JR will to, and things will move on. That is what happens if he isn't traded.

If Phil was bothered by getting media flak, he wouldn't have set up his NTC to make it as difficult as possible to trade him from Toronto.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Frankly, these Kessel proposals stink. If that's the best we can do and there isn't a big UFA fish we're zeroing in on, keep the elite talent for God's sake.

Not only, but IF JR did have his sights on a big fish, Kessel should not be the first name on the list of players to move out to create cap space.

That should be 58.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Phil is pretty notorious for hating the forced media interaction aspect of being a pro player. I'm not sure how anyone could think this summer wouldn't worsen that, particularly with the sorta personal nature Pittsburgh media guys seem to shift their work after this kinda stuff (Sully/Phil, Phil dodging the exit interviews, etc) occurs.

And I don't think Phil's gonna be traded, for the record. But I think if he is, it's not because he's anything less than a great player. It'll be because of the issues with Sully, and age creeping up on him. Wheels are the first to go, and when Phil's skating falls off, it's gonna be real ugly. So it might make sense to move him a season earlier than you'd like in order to avoid that potential mess. Not saying it's imminent or anything, but it's coming and if JR thinks he can get a great return this season and doesn't want to risk an unmovable $7M winger next season, I think he'll explore it--especially when that factor is coupled with the Sully situation.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Not only, but IF JR did have his sights on a big fish, Kessel should not be the first name on the list of players to move out to create cap space.

That should be 58.

This we agree on wholeheartedly.

 

[Shady Machine]

Phil is pretty notorious for hating the forced media interaction aspect of being a pro player. I'm not sure how anyone could think this summer wouldn't worsen that, particularly with the sorta personal nature Pittsburgh media guys seem to shift their work after this kinda stuff (Sully/Phil, Phil dodging the exit interviews, etc) occurs.

And I don't think Phil's gonna be traded, for the record. But I think if he is, it's not because he's anything less than a great player. It'll be because of the issues with Sully, and age creeping up on him. Wheels are the first to go, and when Phil's skating falls off, it's gonna be real ugly. So it might make sense to move him a season earlier than you'd like in order to avoid that potential mess. Not saying it's imminent or anything, but it's coming and if JR thinks he can get a great return this season and doesn't want to risk an unmovable $7M winger next season, I think he'll explore it--especially when that factor is coupled with the Sully situation.

It might decrease his desire and willingness to speak to the media. I'll give you that, but what does that have to do with him getting traded? You are making it seem like this will create some type of toxic environment where Phil will want to leave Pittsburgh. That isn't the case and was never the case in Toronto. He wanted to stay despite the absurdity of the media.

 

[xIronLore]

If Zadina is there at 5th overall I would consider a Kessel trade. I know the Pens have a "window" with Sid and Malkin, but young high end talent isn't available every day. Plus, I think that window is more than the next two years.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Not only, but IF JR did have his sights on a big fish, Kessel should not be the first name on the list of players to move out to create cap space.

That should be 58.

Common sense but do you know how many tears there would be? Then didn't even trade Flower. There was nothing they could do and people are still crying about that. Fans run this team. We have two of the best players in the world. Kessel putting up 200 points in 2 years. Guentzel playing at an elite level on a rookie contract. This team should be a dynasty but sadly we have to hold onto dead weight to appease fans. These fans that love players over the logo on the front are the only reason this team isn't a dynasty and the Capitals have a Championship right now.

 

[Shockmaster]

Common sense but do you know how many tears there would be? Then didn't even trade Flower. There was nothing they could do and people are still crying about that. Fans run this team. We have two of the best players in the world. Kessel putting up 200 points in 2 years. Guentzel playing at an elite level on a rookie contract. This team should be a dynasty but sadly we have to hold onto dead weight to appease fans. These fans that love players over the logo on the front are the only reason this team isn't a dynasty and the Capitals have a Championship right now.

Yup, fans are the reason nobody outside of 87, 72, & 59 scored in the 2nd round!

 

[Ogrezilla]

What have I missed? Why did we turn on Kessel?

 

[Jacob]

I really like Christian Dvorak. Maybe him + 5OA

 

[Shockmaster]

What have I missed? Why did we turn on Kessel?

We prefer Simon.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Yup, fans are the reason nobody outside of 87, 72, & 59 scored in the 2nd round!

Nobody else needed to score. We just needed defense... Crosby/Guentz - 42 points in 12 games. Ovi/Kuzy - 59 points in 24 games.