Salary Cap: Salary Cap/Roster Thread - As we look forward

[Shady Machine]

It could.

Or it could not.

Which is the only point I've been making in response to the rotisserie league doomsayers who have pre-determined the outcome.

I was responding to a post that said Pearson + Muzzin/Martinez made us a much better team and I was questioning that.

I get your point but it’s damn risky moving a player of Kessels caliber for lesser pieces.

 

[justafan22]

what the hell do the coyotes offer outside of 5OA for kessel?

They aren't trading keller.

Strome??

 

[canadianguy77]

Do you ever just ask yourself "man this lie is stupid, I shouldn't post it."

Because you really should.

I'll say again, Kessel only looked like himself in these playoffs when he spent a few periods/period and-a-half with Geno. It actually makes sense when you look at the evidence. I don't think it's a lie. And I really like Phil. But I remember commenting in the GDT of whatever game Phil and Geno were re-united, that Phil actually looked like himself for the first time in the many weeks. I know that correlation/=causation and all that, but it really stood out to me.

Phil's a heck of a hockey player, but maybe his reputation, at least partly, precedes him.

 

[ChaosAgent]

1) We have a below-average group of defensemen, and limited resources to upgrade. We have a talented-but-disaster-prone-#1, a decent #2, a decent-but-overpaid second pairing defenseman, and 2 bottom-pairing defensemen.
2) We also have a poor overall commitment to defense, including from our forwards. Our team defense is poor and leads to getting hemmed in/having poor breakouts.
3) We have a really accomplished and talented offensive forward, our 3rd most offensively-gifted (and would be the most gifted on 6-10 teams in the league). This player is also our worst defensive forward and one of our worst in board play.
4) The player in #3 had a career year last regular season, putting up (as people are sure to tell you), 92 points including 42 on the powerplay. He averaged 65 across his previous 2 seasons with us. Over his last 10 seasons, he has averaged 73 points-per-82 games played. He has produced 80 points twice before, in an organization that moved on from him.
5) Our coach reportedly does not like this player, and is unwilling to play him alongside either of our best two offensive players as he thinks they will be too poor defensively as a line.

Seems as though this is a really good offensive player, but we have a badly unbalanced team and need better defensemen and more willing 2-way forwards. If the right return is out there, we should trade this player, sacrificing a little bit of our offense to become a more effective 2-way team.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'll say again, Kessel only looked like himself in these playoffs when he spent a few periods/period and-a-half with Geno. It actually makes sense when you look at the evidence. I don't think it's a lie. And I really like Phil. But I remember commenting in the GDT of whatever game Phil and Geno were re-united, that Phil actually looked like himself for the first time in the many weeks. I know that correlation/=causation and all that, but it really stood out to me.

Phil's a heck of a hockey player, but maybe his reputation, at least partly, precedes him.

There's really no argument to be had. The rumor is that he was furious he wasn't being played with Geno and you could see it on the bench after damn-near every single shift he took. The fact that he looked like a totally different player when moved to Geno's wing could be a coincidence of seeing the guy have a good few shifts, but I think there's much more to it.

That's the only reason this is really being discussed. There's a reason Kessel's name is out there in talks regarding trades, and it's not because of the quality of player on the ice. It's because his emotions are wholly unchecked way too often and he annoys the f*** out of Sully (and vice versa).

And Kessel being emotional/fiery isn't like Hornqvist or Geno being emotional/fiery. Kessel becomes unhinged, at least with Horny or Geno there's a good chance their anger and frustration fuels them in a positive way--not all the time, but often. Kessel? He just unravels.

 

[canadianguy77]

Scuderi out, Daley in is/was really underrated around here.

No it wasn't. There were posters in here (myself included) wishing for Scuderi to be injured. I'm sure there were probably infractions for it. It was pretty well agreed on that Rob Scuderi wasn't an AHL player at that point.

 

[Jacob]

Maatta’s better-skating trade counterpart is going to have some warts of his own, like being a midget or something.

 

[Pens1566]

No it wasn't. There were posters in here (myself included) wishing for Scuderi to be injured. I'm sure there were probably infractions for it. It was pretty well agreed on that Rob Scuderi wasn't an AHL player at that point.

I'm not saying it wasn't well liked, that would be ridiculous. I'm saying that it's not pointed to enough in terms of turning that roster around and giving it a new identity.

 

[Gurglesons]

No it wasn't. There were posters in here (myself included) wishing for Scuderi to be injured. I'm sure there were probably infractions for it. It was pretty well agreed on that Rob Scuderi wasn't an AHL player at that point.

I think he was more referring to Daley being as good as he was in 2016. At least I hope.

I’d argue Daley was just as good in 2016 as Letang in the playoffs and certainly thought we were done when he went down.

 

[Shady Machine]

Really we are going with the “Phil had a temper tantrum and quit on his teammates” thing?

 

[Tom Hanks]

Really we are going with the “Phil had a temper tantrum and quit on his teammates” thing?

Yeah. He was injured and the guy we brought in to be our 3C to play with him was injured and Riley didn’t match that well with him. Hags and Malkin got injured, Rust was a bit disappointing so it all added up (the list could go on) and Phil couldn’t overcome that.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Quit on his teammates? No, I don't think it got that far. But he absolutely had repeated near-meltdowns on the bench and it was plain as day that his emotions had him mentally checked out of winning hockey games at that point. To argue otherwise is just silly.

I love Phil, and don't want him moved at all costs, but I don't know if Sully and Phil are going to get along any better as time goes on. Sully's a "buy in, play your game and keep your mouth shut" coach, and Phil's got some serious problems keeping his emotions/temper/frustrations in check. I don't think they're at each other's throats like rumors imply, but I am entirely certain that they annoy the absolute shit out of each other.

 

[canadianguy77]

Really we are going with the “Phil had a temper tantrum and quit on his teammates” thing?

He may have quit on his coach. It wouldn't be the first or last time that a superstar has done that. In late 2015, our captain may have done just that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Honestly, seeing how Kessel quit on the Leafs in 2015, I really can't put it beyond him to quit on any of his teams. Do I think he quit on the Penguins this year? No, but Kessel has a history that makes me not dismiss the possibility.

 

[SEALBound]

But it's not exactly Kessel or Kovy.

It's Kessel OR Kovy + the pieces LA would have to give for Kessel.

A lot depends on what Kovy is signed for as well.

Ew... Kessel completed year 3 of his 6 in Pittsburgh. 2 Cups with one CS worthy playoff and one really really bad one (and he wasn't the only one). Rust was brutal. Sheary was brutal. Mur was okay. The defense was brutal.

Just keep Kessel. For all 6 years. Keep 'em.

Nice part is, I do believe that JR will only trade him if he truly believes it will make us a better team. We trade him, we get quality pieces that the org think helps. Win. We don't trade him, we keep Phil Kessel. Win.

 

[Turin]

You guys think Kessel is going to quit in the playoffs chasing a three-peat coming off his best season? He couldn’t even hold his stick right.

Anything for the narrative. Let’s get Steve Simmons in here.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I want no part of Kovalchuk. Dude's back was in tatters half a decade ago, and he's been toiling around in an AHL-quality league on an essentially gov't mandated All-Star squad that was a thinly veiled Olympic training team because he just up and bailed on NJ after they handed him the world.

Give me any number of players before Kovy.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Question for you guys on a Kessel to Arizona suggestion: how would people feel about a deal around Perlini and Goligoski for Kessel? I originally thought the Yotes trading Domi was a death blow for Kessel going to Arizona, but I realized that Perlini is also a pretty attractive LW to be a piece of a Kessel trade. Goligoski is obviously a top pair defenseman and Perlini is a good young LWer.

 

[The Greatest 101]

If we get 5th OA, my concern will be if Sully can get along with Zadina or Tkachuk.lol.

Seriously, both are late birthdate year kids. Geno will be fine with one of them. Tkachuk's goal scoring ability is a bit concerning though based on his stats.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I have said this before, but Kessel is more valuable than Sullivan. Kessel is not a guy we don't know if we can win with. We won twice with him. To try to win without him now would be putting too much on Crosby and Malkin again. We should be trying to lighten their scoring load as they get older, not take away the third wheel of this great offense.

It really annoys me how Kessel never gets the benefit of the doubt. When Jonathan Toews melts down, it's because he cares. When Kessel does it he is a coach killer.

We can win again with another head coach if it had to come to that.

I keep Phil unless Arizona knocks JR's socks off.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

If we get 5th OA, my concern will be if Sully can get along with Zadina or Tkachuk.lol.

Seriously, both are late birthdate year kids. Geno will be fine with one of them. Tkachuk's goal scoring ability is a bit concerning though based on his stats.

I'd love a top-5 pick. But this team needs guys who can come in and be impact players immediately, without any real question like those that come with rookies right after they're drafted.

The window is still open for this team. I know a top-5 pick potentially extends it and keeps this team competitive years down the road when Sid/Geno decline, but if we're moving significant assets like Letang or Kessel, we're gonna need significant players in return who can step in and be effective/productive players immediately. Way too big a risk to bank on a kid to do that months after he's drafted--guys like McDavid, Matthews, Laine aside.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's the only reason this is really being discussed. There's a reason Kessel's name is out there in talks regarding trades, and it's not because of the quality of player on the ice. It's because his emotions are wholly unchecked way too often and he annoys the **** out of Sully (and vice versa).

And Kessel being emotional/fiery isn't like Hornqvist or Geno being emotional/fiery. Kessel becomes unhinged, at least with Horny or Geno there's a good chance their anger and frustration fuels them in a positive way--not all the time, but often. Kessel? He just unravels.

Has that actually proven to be the case with Kessel outside of these playoffs when he was injured and playing with Sheahan or injured Brassard though? Seems to me he's torn opponents a new one much more often than not, and on the biggest stage in the world, despite looking like he just sat on a porcupine roughly 90% of the time.

And it wasn't the biggest one, because the Penguins don't win the cup if their forward depth doesn't become as strong as it became in 2016. That was the transformation of the Penguins, not adding Kessel. Kessel added a player that they needed, the WBS group coming up took them to a championship caliber team.

Teams who win the cup most of the time win based on depth, not based on top end talent. This year is a perfect example of that concept. Guentzel and Crosby scoring like 2 points a game wasn't enough to get them beyond the 2nd round, because their depth just couldn't cut it. Kessel filled the biggest need the Penguins have had since losing Hossa, but the young depth is what made that team elite.

There were a lot of factors, but the "weighting" of them here isn't based on anything, and mostly seems to be in service of the idea of moving Kessel in order to help our depth now, which as I mentioned is already better than the present Cup champs.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Question for you guys on a Kessel to Arizona suggestion: how would people feel about a deal around Perlini and Goligoski for Kessel? I originally thought the Yotes trading Domi was a death blow for Kessel going to Arizona, but I realized that Perlini is also a pretty attractive LW to be a piece of a Kessel trade. Goligoski is obviously a top pair defenseman and Perlini is a good young LWer.

Not sure if I’ve missed a bunch of talk but with Phil’s 8 trade list (of where he’ll go) he gets to have a big say of where he goes. Is there a reason he’d approve that trade?

Definitely two type of players we’d want though.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I have said this before, but Kessel is more valuable than Sullivan. Kessel is not a guy we don't know if we can win with. We won twice with him. To try to win without him now would be putting too much on Crosby and Malkin again. We should be trying to lighten their scoring load as they get older, not take away the third wheel of this great offense.

It really annoys me how Kessel never gets the benefit of the doubt. When Jonathan Toews melts down, it's because he cares. When Kessel does it he is a coach killer.

We can win again with another head coach if it had to come to that.

I keep Phil unless Arizona knocks JR's socks off.

I mean, I just vehemently disagree. No player outside of a generational talent is worth potentially toiling through mediocre or inept coaches for. We struggled to be legit for years with Bylsma, Johnston was an unmitigated disaster, and we finally found Sully who embodies everything this team has been looking for for a decade.

Kessel's great but you can replace players. The thought of having to struggle through seasons with a dummy behind the bench is a whole lot worse than seeing a relative drop off from Kessel to Toffoli/Pearson+.

No coach is perfect. Sully's got his warts. But any coach you find is going to be a dramatic downgrade, and there's no reason to imagine he'd be able to control Kessel's emotions any better than Sully anyway. Kessel goes before Sully 100% of the time imo, and I agree NHL coaches have a finite shelf life, but Sully is much more important to this team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Not sure if I’ve missed a bunch of talk but with Phil’s 8 trade list (of where he’ll go) he gets to have a big say of where he goes. Is there a reason he’d approve that trade?

Definitely two type of players we’d want though.

There was a Yohe article today that said that Kessel would like to go to Arizona, they're just hesitant with Kessel because of salary implications. He'd like to play under Tocchet.