Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - XXX

[Empoleon8771]

Rust works well with Sid? I'm not sure what the analytics say, but Rust is booty with Sid.
Sure there are brief stretches where they look ok but it's more about Sid vs whatever Rust is doing...he's "Just there" half the time. That's my avocation for rotating RW's for Sid

The analytics say they're fantastic together and I'm willing to bet the team doesn't agree with your stance on Rust with Crosby. Either way, that point extends beyond Rust. Kessel is like the Penguins 5th or 6th option for Crosby's RW, after Rust, Simon, Guentzel (with McCann on LW), Hornqvist and probably Bjugstad. Why are we forcing the 5th or 6th option for Crosby on Crosby's line, instead of just moving him out and bringing in either a fit for Crosby or a fit for someone else?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kessel can play with Malkin when they have an LW who can provide what Hags does. We have 2 such wings.

No they don't.

A cherry-picked 32 game sample size for Kessel's so-called decline is pretty flimsy, to say the least.

No it isn't.

That addresses all 4, I'd say.

No it doesn't.

 

[Peat]

Maybe some of that comes from natural growth from within as well.

Kinda independent and tangential, but I think people are overlooking just how much room for improvement we have within the ranks from improvement and bounce backs. Blueger could be a better 4C for us than Cullen; Bjugstad could be a 40 point 3C; any of Simon, McCann and ZAR could get close to the 40 point mark at ES with a push forwards if they stick in the top 6. Schultz could stay fit and hit it. The power play could not give up a ton of SH goals, the OT units could avoid sucking.

Obviously most of this stuff isn't happening but we do now have a lot of unestablished guys who've been trending up and we don't know what they are to go with a few guys like Schultz and Horny who can be better.

Having the coaches coax that extra 10-20% out of the names I've mentioned would be bigger than any trade.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think Zucker is Hagelin with goal scoring talents, so I definitely think he'd be something that gives Malkin what he needs. But yeah, is that giving Malkin what he needs when the top line ends up Guentzel-Crosby-Zucker? Because we can't pretend that's not a possibility.

I'd rather give them the ability to get Malkin the help he needs over keeping something that doesn't work anymore because you're afraid they won't get Malkin what he needs. To me, moving Kessel is a must because he just doesn't work here anymore. The risk of getting another crappy fit with Malkin (or getting no one) is either low enough or not as bad as having Kessel for another year.

I dunno man. I feel like I've seen the whole "here's some scraps bub... make do" thing with Malkin far too much to not assume it's the non-plan plan. Then, of course, lay it all at his feet next year when it inevitably doesn't work when they have him matched up with like... Hornqvist and Comeau 2.0.

Oh and JJ/Maatta/roadcone.

Guess we'll see. Absolutely not optimistic. I recognize all of Kessel's faults. I know he has to be moved, now. Damage is done. But I really, really think the damage will be much worse than people understand. Especially as far as Malkin is concerned.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I never said Kessel quit on the team. That is something you typed. I said he doesn’t care what Sullivan has to say. Which is exactly what has been reported.

See I wish you would have answered initially because that wasn't clear.

And I'm not sure what is worse:
1. Attempting to read body language in media interviews to gauge a players' compete level OR
2. Believing whatever the Pittsburgh media leaks as it relates to the Pens. I mean there's a whole nother thread regarding how the team has it's propoganda writers. Again if you want to take what they (the media) say at face value, I'm not going to change your mind about your stereotyping of Phil

Note that I'm not Phil's #1 fan or anything, but man has he ever been tagged as the black sheep/cancer/etc that needs to be removed and a TON of people are buying it hook, line and sinker.

Well done Pittsburgh Media...well done!

 

[Jules Winnfield]

So what happened with Phil and another 3C like Bjug? I can understand Brass and Phil’s preference to play with Sid and G but was he throwing a fit about playing with other 3C options like Bjug, McCann or Blueger? Would he be open to returning if we improved or had different options to play with on L3?

Malkin was already pissed off at Hagelin being traded and the injury bug hitting the team. Kessel and Malkin hitched themselves to each other last season over lots of emotional frustration for various reasons. They were tired of playing with the Brassard's and ZAR's of the world. If you took Kessel off Malkin's line, you were going to piss off Malkin last season. If you put Kessel back at the 3rd line you were going to piss him off. It was a no win situation. JR f***ed up on the Hagelin deal. He should've made the Florida deal first and kept Hagelin. The defense was shit most of the year due to injuries but really impacted the 2nd line the most.

 

[Gurglesons]

Fair point and I agree no coach staples 2 players or more for an entire season. Sometimes guys need split up and time apart. So what's wrong with going to Sid and say "hey you're gonna have different RW's during the season, and that includes Kessel"?
Why is that so hard to convey as a coach? If it's a disaster then you can at least check it off to say it didn't work.

What blows my mind is that it's such an absolute NO NO in Sully's mind to barely try Sid/Kessel

See my previous post: "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"

They played 91 minutes together this year at 5v5..

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

The analytics say they're fantastic together and I'm willing to bet the team doesn't agree with your stance on Rust with Crosby. Either way, that point extends beyond Rust. Kessel is like the Penguins 5th or 6th option for Crosby's RW, after Rust, Simon, Guentzel (with McCann on LW), Hornqvist and probably Bjugstad. Why are we forcing the 5th or 6th option for Crosby on Crosby's line, instead of just moving him out and bringing in either a fit for Crosby or a fit for someone else?

That's the premise of this thread isn't it?

On 1 end of the spectrum there are people like you who believe he needs to go at whatever cost
On the other end there are others who believe that whatever comes back is gonna be such minimal value it's just best to keep Phil and whatever limitations he has

 

[Gurglesons]

See I wish you would have answered initially because that wasn't clear.

And I'm not sure what is worse:
1. Attempting to read body language in media interviews to gauge a players' compete level OR
2. Believing whatever the Pittsburgh media leaks as it relates to the Pens. I mean there's a whole nother thread regarding how the team has it's propoganda writers. Again if you want to take what they (the media) say at face value, I'm not going to change your mind about your stereotyping of Phil

Note that I'm not Phil's #1 fan or anything, but man has he ever been tagged as the black sheep/cancer/etc that needs to be removed and a TON of people are buying it hook, line and sinker.

Well done Pittsburgh Media...well done!

Normally I’d agree. But Phil is a totally different case and this has followed him since he was a teenager.

He literally chose a healthy game record over this team a year ago?

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's honestly mind boggling to be reading the stuff in here. Kessel had an absolutely atrocious season last year. Even beyond the analytics, even beyond the +/-, he blatantly failed the eye test and looked downright dreadful for a majority of last year. Do I need to quote the GDTs that were just full of people complaining about him?

He's not a fit here anymore because the Penguins don't have the pieces to make him work here anymore. That has always been the requirement for Kessel working for a team, for that team to have the complementary pieces to Kessel to negate out his weaknesses. They don't have that, because they don't have a Hagelin anymore. Rust and McCann either are not similar to Hagelin or do not have the impact of Hagelin, not even close. They don't have the puck movers to compensate for Kessel doing literally nothing for your transition game. They don't have the center that Kessel wants to play with that can have a hands-off style as Kessel carries the puck. It just doesn't work here anymore, and people are just clinging to the past and refusing to admit it.

Are we going to have this discussion again next year, when Kessel inevitably has another bad year on a team he's a bad fit on? Or are the Penguins just going to keep him for the entire contract and deal with potentially 3 more years of what last year was? It's just crazy talk, I don't know what else to put it.

That's the premise of this thread isn't it?

On 1 end of the spectrum there are people like you who believe he needs to go at whatever cost
On the other end there are others who believe that whatever comes back is gonna be such minimal value it's just best to keep Phil and whatever limitations he has

That doesn't answer my question. For a guy that isn't a fit here anymore, why are we insisting on keeping him instead of moving him out for a better fit? How good Kessel is doesn't matter if he's a terrible fit here.

 

[Beauner]

Kessel can play with Malkin when they have an LW who can provide what Hags does. We have 2 such wings.

This was true 2-3 years ago. I don't believe it's true now. A Hagelin-like LW isn't going to make Kessel make better decisions with the puck, turn the puck over less or play less stupid.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

They played 91 minutes together this year at 5v5..

Thanks for supporting my point

A whooping 4 and one half games is apparently enough sample size to conclude this didn't and won't EVER work. (91 divided by 20 mins TOI)

Fantastic use of resources, Sully.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

He literally chose a healthy game record over this team a year ago?

Is that what Kessel said or do you have verified sources?

Again, there's a TON of conjecture going on about Phil. I'm not saying I have all the facts, but what is being bandied about isn't necessarily verifiable

 

[Tom Hanks]

Thanks for supporting my point

A whooping 4 and one half games is apparently enough sample size to conclude this didn't and won't EVER work. (91 divided by 20 mins TOI)

Fantastic use of resources, Sully.

Sid had arguably his best season or at least one of his best seasons at worst. Why mess with that to accomodate Phil Kessel?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well done Pittsburgh Media...well done!

They really have done a number this offseason. Lets not forget they gleefully went after Malkin, too. A lot of that even seemed to take hold in the fanbase. Even though it was rumored that Crosby was not pleased about it (sorry forget the source or validity of source... not hard to imagine, though).

I mean... I really, really do get a lot of the reasons Phil needs to go. I never thought he was a permanent solution, anyway. But all this character stuff is just so predictable.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I dunno man. I feel like I've seen the whole "here's some scraps bub... make do" thing with Malkin far too much to not assume it's the non-plan plan. Then, of course, lay it all at his feet next year when it inevitably doesn't work when they have him matched up with like... Hornqvist and Comeau 2.0.

Oh and JJ/Maatta/roadcone.

Guess we'll see. Absolutely not optimistic. I recognize all of Kessel's faults. I know he has to be moved, now. Damage is done. But I really, really think the damage will be much worse than people understand. Especially as far as Malkin is concerned.

Isn't putting Kessel with Malkin kinda the same thing as this? I don't mean this as in "Kessel is a scrap", but putting Kessel with Malkin is kinda just giving Malkin the leftovers of Crosby's line and making a 3rd line Sullivan likes. It's not like Sullivan defaults to Malkin with Kessel, he just gets him because he doesn't have anywhere else to put him.

Like I said though, I'd much rather gamble on the Penguins possibly giving Malkin more scraps going forward over keeping Kessel and hoping that gets back to where it once was.

 

[Gurglesons]

Thanks for supporting my point

A whooping 4 and one half games is apparently enough sample size to conclude this didn't and won't EVER work. (91 divided by 20 mins TOI)

Fantastic use of resources, Sully.

Sid actually averages 16 minutes at 5v5 but I get your point.

Still, Sullivan wasn’t afraid to go to it. I think that indicates much like Hornqvist it wasn’t Sully’s issue.

That being I said, I posted Sullivan’s quote from Behind the Benches. He prefers Sid, Geno, and Phil to be on separate lines.

 

[Peat]

Thanks for supporting my point

A whooping 4 and one half games is apparently enough sample size to conclude this didn't and won't EVER work. (91 divided by 20 mins TOI)

Fantastic use of resources, Sully.

If with Sid is the only place Phil works here, then he doesn't have a place here.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Isn't putting Kessel with Malkin kinda the same thing as this? I don't mean this as in "Kessel is a scrap", but putting Kessel with Malkin is kinda just giving Malkin the leftovers of Crosby's line and making a 3rd line Sullivan likes. It's not like Sullivan defaults to Malkin with Kessel, he just gets him because he doesn't have anywhere else to put him.

Like I said though, I'd much rather gamble on the Penguins possibly giving Malkin more scraps going forward over keeping Kessel and hoping that gets back to where it once was.

I just... don't know how much sense that makes.

The devil you know and all that. People are making the same arguments about the coach and everyone nods their head solemnly.

 

[Gurglesons]

Is that what Kessel said or do you have verified sources?

Again, there's a TON of conjecture going on about Phil. I'm not saying I have all the facts, but what is being bandied about isn't necessarily verifiable

I mean, what exactly do you think happened in 17-18?

If that is healthy Kessel why is that not a concern? At least Hornqvist actually looks like he is playing hockey.

 

[Andy99]

It's honestly mind boggling to be reading the stuff in here. Kessel had an absolutely atrocious season last year. Even beyond the analytics, even beyond the +/-, he blatantly failed the eye test and looked downright dreadful for a majority of last year. Do I need to quote the GDTs that were just full of people complaining about him?

He's not a fit here anymore because the Penguins don't have the pieces to make him work here anymore. That has always been the requirement for Kessel working for a team, for that team to have the complementary pieces to Kessel to negate out his weaknesses. They don't have that, because they don't have a Hagelin anymore. Rust and McCann either are not similar to Hagelin or do not have the impact of Hagelin, not even close. They don't have the puck movers to compensate for Kessel doing literally nothing for your transition game. They don't have the center that Kessel wants to play with that can have a hands-off style as Kessel carries the puck. It just doesn't work here anymore, and people are just clinging to the past and refusing to admit it.

Are we going to have this discussion again next year, when Kessel inevitably has another bad year on a team he's a bad fit on? Or are the Penguins just going to keep him for the entire contract and deal with potentially 3 more years of what last year was? It's just crazy talk, I don't know what else to put it.



That doesn't answer my question. For a guy that isn't a fit here anymore, why are we insisting on keeping him instead of moving him out for a better fit? How good Kessel is doesn't matter if he's a terrible fit here.

No one is insisting we keep him...who are you directing this at? People are just realistic that we may get no return for him. He’s got a NTC, the only rumored deal he nixed, and the FO won’t consider a futures deal...no one wants him dumped without an OK return...the options are poor to nil...some people would rather have him back than, say, dump him for Phaneuf...we have lots of equally poor fit players we can give up for cap space, like JJ, Maatta, Horny, Rust, Bjug etc...he might have to return

 

[Pancakes]

Ha... good points all.

I was mostly just making a point in my signature not-at-all asinine and super sarcastic manner.

I know I just thought it important to point out the distinction because a lot of people are mocking the analytics community for saying Dom is a good defensive player. I think it is possible to be a good defensive player and excel at 5v5 defense because of positioning, puck skills, and all that, but maybe be inferior on the pk due to lacking quickness/speed and reach, or even pking instincts. I think Dom getting a Selke vote is a joke of course but I also think he is a strong 5v5 two-way hockey player.

Think of how Dumoulin can move the puck very well 5v5 for example but you'd never want him on the PP. Or how Tyler Kennedy was a key cog on the Staal line and probably had excellent shot rates but I don't recall him being used a ton on the pk. I think it's possible to be strong defensively in one area but be unable to necessarily apply that skill set to excel in another.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

If with Sid is the only place Phil works here, then he doesn't have a place here.

Maybe.
How do we know Phil wouldn't make Sid's production go completely bananas to have 2 actual scoring wingers for the first time EVER in his career?

Again, the good is the enemy of the great.

Such a line could also crash and burn, but it'd be nice to like actually know that.

But everyone agrees that Sully is supreme coach commander and has never ever made a mistake in terms of line concoctions. He's infallible

 

[Andy99]

Not to change the subject that never dies, but this person seems to think we can get a 3rd or 4th for Jarry...is this right? I’m not sure we can get that much...

Tristan Jarry should be a trade chip for the Pittsburgh Penguins

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think Phil knows he's out, and he doesn't mind. He'll either relent and go to Minnesota, or he'll see his iron man streak snapped. It's a crappy angle to play, but it is what it is.