Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - XXX

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Because he’s basically come out and said it multiple times throughout his career?

Kessel said he's quit on his team multiple times through is career? I'm not following

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hey if you can trade Phil and make the team better, sign me up. I just have my doubts.

Would you say we "won" the Neal-Hornqvist deal when we made it? I think it's very similar to that situation. A complimentary winger who is problematic, and has essentially played himself out of town because of his flaws.

I don't think you "win" a Phil trade immediately, just like we didn't "win" when we traded a 40g, 80pt Neal for a 50pt Hornqvist. It's about the process, and Phil is the first domino to fall.

It's got its fair share of risks, for sure, but it needs to be done and staying the course is certainly going to sink this already badly leaking ship.

 

[Gurglesons]

Kessel said he's quit on his team multiple times through is career? I'm not following

If you want to act like Phil doesn’t have I could give a shit what anyone says to me attitude in every interview feel free.

I’ll be over here in reality.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Who do you suggest we replace him with?

I think Zucker would've been fine, and still might be if Phil circles back and accepts the deal when he realizes nobody else wants to deal with him.

I think this team needs a ton of work, to be fair. I wouldn't be surprised if we missed the playoffs this year, with or without Phil. It's going to be ugly until we make the half-dozen moves or so that we need in order to fix the issues.

The Pandora's Box has been opened and there's no closing it, especially with Phil, imo. He knows he's gone, and I don't think he really cares all too much. He just doesn't want to go to a bottom feeder.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Who do you suggest we replace him with?

I see Tyler Kennedy around once in a while

 

[Andy99]

The current Penguins roster could be used in an examination of logic on a job application or SAT or something:

Assuming the following are true, construct a roster that leaves no player upset or under-performing:

- Hornqvist can play on all four lines
- Sid does not like to play with Hornqvist
- Kessel can only play on lines 1 or 2
- Kessel requires an offset defensively
- Sid does not like to play with Kessel
- Sid can have success with anyone, until he can't
- ZAR must play
- Guentzel plays well with Sid
- McCann plays well with Sid, but can also play on the third line
- Rust can play on any line
- Bjugstad can play wing or center
- Wilson must play

Once the roster is assembled, defend your roster decisions to armchair-commandos who think they know better. Include at least 3 supporting statements:

Lol....the LSAT dude, analytic section

 

[Riptide]

My question is: where are the parents in this scenario? Why does this organization (and it goes all the way back to Mario) cater soooo much to it's superstars' wants and not what is best for the team?

Again if Sully would grow a pair and dictate lines appropriately we may not even be talking about this stuff. I still have yet to hear why Sid/Horny are suddenly ok as a pair in a must win playoff game but God forbid they skate during the regular season together.

Because parents want happy kids. The season is long enough that they do not need Crosby at Kessel's throat because he won't do anything if he doesn't have the puck. Like wise for why they don't just stuff Kessel onto L3 and tell him to suck it up because he's a pro. These are not depth players that we can afford to piss off... these are, for better or worse, our core/star players. And if they're unhappy and pouting and at eachother's throats, it's going to make for a very unpleasant room for everyone.

It's the same reason why Hornqvist doesn't play with Crosby for any length of time unless they really need them to. In a must win PO game (or even games), players will suck up most things. It's the cup and the ultimate goal. And if you make it to the finals, it's an intense 2 month sprint. But the season? It's a 6 month grind. These are two very different things and it's not really surprising why players will put up with a lot in the POs in order to win that they do everything possible to avoid during the course of the long and tedious regular season.

So while it's easy for fans to sit back and say the coach needs to grow a pair and tell them to f*** off and accept what he's doing... there's a lot more there that a coach has to take into account.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hell, maybe if we clear enough cap in the next calendar year, we can take a huge run at Hall next summer.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I think the fact that Kessel was a Penguin this season is evidence that the team tried. He probably should've been moved last summer after he had a brutal Caps series on the ice, coupled with his tantrums on the bench and battles with teammates/coaches.

He's gotta go. He served his purpose and no longer makes sense for this team to keep around, plain and simple.

Uh he was clearly injured, along with about 4 other teammates during that series.

You want to say he was lackadasical during this reg season, have at it and I won't disagree. But he's been fully engaged every single playoff series in a Pens and Leafs uniform.

 

[Shady Machine]

Would you say we "won" the Neal-Hornqvist deal when we made it? I think it's very similar to that situation. A complimentary winger who is problematic, and has essentially played himself out of town because of his flaws.

I don't think you "win" a Phil trade immediately, just like we didn't "win" when we traded a 40g, 80pt Neal for a 50pt Hornqvist. It's about the process, and Phil is the first domino to fall.

It's got its fair share of risks, for sure, but it needs to be done and staying the course is certainly going to sink this already badly leaking ship.

Right and a year after getting Hornqvist, we filled the missing Neal piece by upgrading Neal into Kessel. Hornqvist was a great add, but it wasn't just Neal for Hornqvist that made the Pens contenders.

You have to show me not only how the replacement on Kessel is the better fit piece, but how we fill the void from losing Kessel's skillset that isn't replaced in that trade.

Maybe some of that comes from natural growth from within as well. I'm trying to be open minded here. I just think some of the "trade Kessel at all costs" crowd needs to give a little too.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Grasping here? If you believe that ZAR is anywhere near the ES offense producer of Phil Kessel, I think I know who is grasping.

If you can point out to anywhere I even remotely implied that, I'd welcome it. I was saying where Kessel fell relative to Malkin and ZAR. You tried to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion of how good Phil is. That's grasping.

I'm not even suggesting he didn't have a poor year relative to year's past. I'm trying to dispel this myth that he's washed up and needs to be moved.

The ONLY viable argument I accept to take less than a good return (call me stubborn or whatever) is that Kessel's refusal to play on the 3rd line or buy into a team concept has hurt team chemistry to a degree that outweighs his positive attributes.

I don't have any evidence to believe or deny that, although there is smoke.

You're arguing against ghosts if you think people are saying he's washed up. Saying he's not as good as what he once was isn't saying he's washed up. Saying he's coming off a dreadful year last year, where his ES production dramatically fell off in the second half of last year, isn't saying he's washed up.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

If you want to act like Phil doesn’t have I could give a **** what anyone says to me attitude in every interview feel free.

I’ll be over here in reality.

So we are taking players' interest level in interviews and extrapolating them into whether they are quitting on their team or not?
Wow...that's quite the jump. But if that aligns with your pre conceived notions of someone I suppose you're not gonna see much issue with that psychoanalysis

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Because parents want happy kids. The season is long enough that they do not need Crosby at Kessel's throat because he won't do anything if he doesn't have the puck. Like wise for why they don't just stuff Kessel onto L3 and tell him to suck it up because he's a pro. These are not depth players that we can afford to piss off... these are, for better or worse, our core/star players. And if they're unhappy and pouting and at eachother's throats, it's going to make for a very unpleasant room for everyone.

It's the same reason why Hornqvist doesn't play with Crosby for any length of time unless they really need them to. In a must win PO game (or even games), players will suck up most things. It's the cup and the ultimate goal. And if you make it to the finals, it's an intense 2 month sprint. But the season? It's a 6 month grind. These are two very different things and it's not really surprising why players will put up with a lot in the POs in order to win that they do everything possible to avoid during the course of the long and tedious regular season.

So while it's easy for fans to sit back and say the coach needs to grow a pair and tell them to **** off and accept what he's doing... there's a lot more there that a coach has to take into account.

Fair point and I agree no coach staples 2 players or more for an entire season. Sometimes guys need split up and time apart. So what's wrong with going to Sid and say "hey you're gonna have different RW's during the season, and that includes Kessel"?
Why is that so hard to convey as a coach? If it's a disaster then you can at least check it off to say it didn't work.

What blows my mind is that it's such an absolute NO NO in Sully's mind to barely try Sid/Kessel

See my previous post: "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"

 

[Empoleon8771]

The group arguing against trading Kessel are ignoring 4 vital details to say they should keep him:

1. Kessel doesn't fit anywhere on this team at ES, since Crosby doesn't want to play with him, he's terrible with Malkin and he doesn't want to play on the 3rd line
2. The Penguins need to give Malkin help, which keeping Kessel prevents the Penguins from doing
3. Kessel's negatives are only going to get worse going forward, and he has already shown signs of starting a decline offensively (2 ES goals and 12 ES points in the last 32 games of last year)
4. The Penguins don't have the pieces to make Kessel work here anymore.

Him putting up point totals and making the Penguins powerplay better don't override those 4 points.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Right and a year after getting Hornqvist, we filled the missing Neal piece by upgrading Neal into Kessel. Hornqvist was a great add, but it wasn't just Neal for Hornqvist that made the Pens contenders.

You have to show me not only how the replacement on Kessel is the better fit piece, but how we fill the void from losing Kessel's skillset that isn't replaced in that trade.

Maybe some of that comes from natural growth from within as well. I'm trying to be open minded here. I just think some of the "trade Kessel at all costs" crowd needs to give a little too.

Nobody had Kessel on their radar when we made the Neal move, so that's kind of an odd ask, eh? "Predict the future". Nobody's saying, nor have they ever said, move Phil and that's that. As a matter of fact, I've said with just about every post that moving Phil doesn't fix everything, and that this is going to be a multi-year fix. That doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't move a problematic player who has proven to be more hassle than he's worth--much like Neal.

Lots of moves need to happen, and Phil is just one of many. I'm not a GM, I don't have the pulse of every team, or have an idea who is available.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Fair point and I agree no coach staples 2 players or more for an entire season. Sometimes guys need split up and time apart. So what's wrong with going to Sid and say "hey you're gonna have different RW's during the season, and that includes Kessel"?
Why is that so hard to convey as a coach? If it's a disaster then you can at least check it off to say it didn't work.

What blows my mind is that it's such an absolute NO NO in Sully's mind to barely try Sid/Kessel

See my previous post: "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"

I bet that conversation would go well. "Despite you playing well, producing well and liking playing with Rust, we're going to take Rust off your line, give you Kessel and you can go **** yourself if you don't like it". Instead of trying to break up things that work to try and make Kessel work here, why not move out Kessel for something that actually works here?

 

[Andy99]

Here's some of the issue:

Crosby doesn't want to play with Kessel or Hornqvist. I don't understand the Hornqvist thing since they always seem to produce and have positive possession stats.

Malkin isn't a fan of playing with Hornqvist but looks like **** with Kessel because you put two lackadaisical defensive players together on the same line.

Kessel wants to play with Crosby or Malkin. He's best with the Bozak's and Bonino's of the world where he's the offensive driver of the line and the other forwards are defensively responsible.

Kessel also got to play with Malkin last year because he threw a fit about how ****ty it was playing with Brassard (I can understand that because Brassard sucked.). Then with the injuries, Malkin complained that he wanted to play with Kessel so both of them were tied to each other last year. Sully knew they were bad but the Kessel locker room stink was enough to let them either lead the team and take us to the promise land or say **** it you guys know better you can sink with the ship too and it will stand out and the latter is what happened. Sully was also in a bit of a pickle with this because we had no depth for a while up front when people were injured and Brassard sucked.

If it wasn't for the power play last year we were a lottery team.

The biggest issues were the disconnect from the GM to the Coach on the players he needed to succeed and the disconnect from the Coach to the players to get buy in and have a two way dialogue instead of the one way dialogue Sully just does with people.

We have 3 finicky star forwards that are better separately from each other but need the right supporting cast around them. Last year they didn't have that right supporting cast from the defense, forwards, and coaching staff.

So what happened with Phil and another 3C like Bjug? I can understand Brass and Phil’s preference to play with Sid and G but was he throwing a fit about playing with other 3C options like Bjug, McCann or Blueger? Would he be open to returning if we improved or had different options to play with on L3?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The group arguing against trading Kessel are ignoring 4 vital details to say they should keep him:

1. Kessel doesn't fit anywhere on this team at ES, since Crosby doesn't want to play with him, he's terrible with Malkin and he doesn't want to play on the 3rd line
2. The Penguins need to give Malkin help, which keeping Kessel prevents the Penguins from doing
3. Kessel's negatives are only going to get worse going forward, and he has already shown signs of starting a decline offensively (2 ES goals and 12 ES points in the last 32 games of last year)
4. The Penguins don't have the pieces to make Kessel work here anymore.

Him putting up point totals and making the Penguins powerplay better don't override those 4 points.

I think you make perfectly fair points. Most of which I actually agree with. And I don't mean to snipe just one aspect of your post here but... honest question... do you REALLY think they are going to "get Malkin the help he needs?"

Shit man... THEY don't even seem to know what he needs.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I bet that conversation would go well. "Despite you playing well, producing well and liking playing with Rust, we're going to take Rust off your line, give you Kessel and you can go **** yourself if you don't like it". Instead of trying to break up things that work to try and make Kessel work here, why not move out Kessel for something that actually works here?

Rust works well with Sid? I'm not sure what the analytics say, but Rust is booty with Sid.
Sure there are brief stretches where they look ok but it's more about Sid vs whatever Rust is doing...he's "Just there" half the time. That's my avocation for rotating RW's for Sid

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think you make perfectly fair points. Most of which I actually agree with. And I don't mean to snipe just one aspect of your post here but... honest question... do you REALLY think they are going to "get Malkin the help he needs?"

**** man... THEY don't even seem to know what he needs.

I think Zucker is Hagelin with goal scoring talents, so I definitely think he'd be something that gives Malkin what he needs. But yeah, is that giving Malkin what he needs when the top line ends up Guentzel-Crosby-Zucker? Because we can't pretend that's not a possibility.

I'd rather give them the ability to get Malkin the help he needs over keeping something that doesn't work anymore because you're afraid they won't get Malkin what he needs. To me, moving Kessel is a must because he just doesn't work here anymore. The risk of getting another crappy fit with Malkin (or getting no one) is either low enough or not as bad as having Kessel for another year.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah... Rust and Sid work well together since when? That looks like a trainwreck even more often than Malkin/Hornqvist.

 

[Gurglesons]

So we are taking players' interest level in interviews and extrapolating them into whether they are quitting on their team or not?
Wow...that's quite the jump. But if that aligns with your pre conceived notions of someone I suppose you're not gonna see much issue with that psychoanalysis

I never said Kessel quit on the team. That is something you typed. I said he doesn’t care what Sullivan has to say. Which is exactly what has been reported.

 

[Tom Hanks]

True. But the point stands.

Well ZAR was actually only scored on 14 times at ES last year so he must be doing something right defensively to help in that regard.

ZAR with Malkin and Hags with Malkin were his two most ES lines.

Seems like Phil just dropped off. At his salary he can’t do that like he did.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The group arguing against trading Kessel are ignoring 4 vital details to say they should keep him:

1. Kessel doesn't fit anywhere on this team at ES, since Crosby doesn't want to play with him, he's terrible with Malkin and he doesn't want to play on the 3rd line
2. The Penguins need to give Malkin help, which keeping Kessel prevents the Penguins from doing
3. Kessel's negatives are only going to get worse going forward, and he has already shown signs of starting a decline offensively (2 ES goals and 12 ES points in the last 32 games of last year)
4. The Penguins don't have the pieces to make Kessel work here anymore.

Him putting up point totals and making the Penguins powerplay better don't override those 4 points.

Kessel can play with Malkin when they have an LW who can provide what Hags does. We have 2 such wings.

A cherry-picked 32 game sample size for Kessel's so-called decline is pretty flimsy, to say the least.

That addresses all 4, I'd say.

 

[Riptide]

The big issue here Rip, is you can take almost any statement made about Kessel, and apply it equally to Malkin. One guy makes 6.8, the other 9.5. Both players seem to have motivation issues, get frustrated, are mercurial, and need a lot of support on ice to be effective. Both of their ES play took a huge nosedive when Hagelin was sent out.

At this point, Geno seems to have fallen off more from his prime than Phil to my eye [Geno started at much higher level, obviously] starting in 2013 with that JVR hit. Geno does seem to absorb the bad habits of linemates, like with Neal. But I've seen Zucker doing some cherry picking and ole stuff defending the point too. So not sure that helps things with Geno.

What's really unfortunate in all of this, is that if we simply had a competent, complementary player on LW with Geno and Phil, and had a competent puck mover behind them, the issues this year, and probably for another year or two, could have been greatly mitigated. But instead we're judging both Phil and Geno by a year in which their most common linemates were ZAR and Pearson (and Brassard for Phil), and both had a heavy dose of JJ, Maatta, etc on D.

Trading Hagelin was a terrible move. Losing Schultz was the nail in the coffin.

I don't disagree. But Kessel isn't Malkin. He has been and he never will be. Now I'll agree that part of that is an emotional response. The other part is that Malkin is a center, and Kessel is a winger. I will always value the center more than a winger. Always. It's just the nature of the game. Even more so when talking about someone as good as Malkin.

The other part is that we can get a winger that will help Malkin get back to where he was a couple years ago. I don't think Zucker is that guy for Malkin (I would still go Guentzel-Malkin-Hornqvist), but there are wingers out there in FA who could do wonder's for Malkin. Guys who would do the dirty work and help Malkin get back to where we need him to be to have another shot or two at the cup. It doesn't matter how much you insulate Kessel, if Malkin isn't going, it won't matter. And unfortunately Kessel doesn't help Malkin.

And while yes it's possible that we could have avoided the situation we're currently in... I don't think that that is the answer here. We shouldn't need to keep someone like Hagelin around who in his 16 games had 1g/3pts despite playing ~90% of his time with Malkin and ~75% of his time with Kessel. If Kessel needs someone like that that badly... the answer isn't keep Hagelin, it's move Kessel and spend his 6.8m on a more well rounded player that doesn't need someone who's basically his complete opposite to make it so he's not terrible.