Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Well, now what?

[Dipsy Doodle]

That’s not the two options for a player though. Get top 6 minutes and you’ll be good, get bottom 6 minutes and you’ll be bad.

Neal began his career on a team that finished 23rd in the league. Of course there is going to be more opportunity for him.

Rust and Sheary had lower minutes in their first seasons. We had a little bit of a weaker roster but they also got opportunities with injuries etc and built up from there.

Sprong is getting 8:30 mins right now and 1:30 of that on the PP and has only managed 3 shots in 6 games. He’s not playing with scrubs either. A 3rd line C and a smart vet who can set up plays very well (has 711 career points) plus good players on the PP. He’s not forcing anyone’s hand either with his play. At the moment he’s the 11th or 12th best forward on the team.

There's no basis at all for that conclusion, TH. Despite playing far fewer minutes, Sprong has 3 times as many points as the "3rd line C" and "smart vet" combined.

Even on the PP the dopes are using him in an unfamiliar role that minimizes his best weapon, but despite that and the total lack of opportunity at ES, Sprong has as many points through 6 games as Sheahan, Cullen, Rust, and Hornqvist combined. Yet the Pens are still "searching for secondary scoring". Where, oh where, could they possibly find it?

 

[Peat]

There's no basis at all for that conclusion, TH. Despite playing far fewer minutes, Sprong has 3 times as many points as the "3rd line C" and "smart vet" combined.

Even on the PP the dopes are using him in an unfamiliar role that minimizes his best weapon, but despite that and the total lack of opportunity at ES, Sprong has as many points through 6 games as Sheahan, Cullen, Rust, and Hornqvist combined. Yet the Pens are still "searching for secondary scoring". Where, oh where, could they possibly find it?

Having the worst defensive stats on the team with all his line mates having better stats away from him is quite a basis. I know you're going to disagree but its not like people are dreaming these things up from thin air.

And we know that the offence will come for most of the guys who are currently quiet. We don't know Sprong's defence will.

 

[Shady Machine]

And this is based on what exactly - because it's certainly not based on their production.

Bonino (removing HBK from the equation) 15/16: 3g/13pts at ES in 47 games - 22.6 ES pt pace.
Bonino 16/17: 12g/25pts at ES in 80 games
Bonino 17/18: 11g/25pts at ES in 71 games

Eller 15/16: 15g/24pts at ES
Eller 16/17: 11g/23pts at ES
Eller 17/18: 11g/32pts at ES

Sheahan in 17/18: 10g/29pts at ES in 73 games - 32.5pt pace. And that's with moving to a new team, and seeing a demotion after we acquired Brassard.

Let's see him do it for more than one frickin season first. I'll admit, I may have some rose colored Bonino glasses and be biased against Sheahan. I just don't care for him as a player. But, he did produce after a slow start last year. Let's see him do it this year.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Let's see him do it for more than one frickin season. Why do you get to remove his **** years and remove Bones dynamite year?

Hey let's compare me at my best to you at your worst.

I think it's fair to just use Sheahans stats here. And in a discussion about whether a guy is a cup calibre 3c, comparing him to boninos worst that still won a cup also seems fair. I think bones top end is better than Sheahans, but I think Sheahan is as good as 2017 playoff bones and that's a cup calibre 3c.

 

[Shady Machine]

To me that's the wrong kind of depth. Personally, I don't think he's a top 8 guy, the Pens have picked up guys/vets who provided more than Ruh. That puts him out of the top 8 for me. He is what he is and he's not going to get better at his age, I'd rather have a prospect with a ton of upside and promise in his position or a vet who still has the legs. He's bounced up and down for a reason, he's an AHL lifer.

The Pens are getting there, it'll only take time.

You'd rather have a prospect with a ton of upside sit in the pressbox as number 8?

I don't know what your thing is against Ruh, but he's clearly a good option as #8.

 

[Shady Machine]

Eller also put up 18 points in 24 games on that playoff run. He also has 41 points in 74 career playoff games, which is arguably 2C numbers. Sheahan has 7 points in 29 playoff games, which is closer to 4C numbers than 2C numbers.

Yup. So technically you can win with a Sheahan type as 3C, if that player comes up big in the playoffs. I have yet to see anything to suggest Sheahan can do that. Maybe he can, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Ogrezilla]

You'd rather have a prospect with a ton of upside sit in the pressbox as number 8?

I don't know what your thing is against Ruh, but he's clearly a good option as #8.

Yeah, the best you can realistically hope for as a number 8 in the press box is a guy who doesn't bleed goals.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think it's fair to just use Sheahans stats here. And in a discussion about whether a guy is a cup calibre 3c, comparing him to boninos worst that still won a cup also seems fair. I think bones top end is better than Sheahans, but I think Sheahan is as good as 2017 playoff bones and that's a cup calibre 3c.

Sorry I edited but you caught me.

I think your post is fair and I'm a bit clouded against Sheahan. I'll admit it. There is just not a lot there I like when I watch him outside of defensive posture and faceoffs.

I think this team can win with Sheahan at center, but I don't see him with the playmaking or scoring ability to bring a scoring 3rd line.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Sorry I edited but you caught me.

I think your post is fair and I'm a bit clouded against Sheahan. I'll admit it. There is just not a lot there I like when I watch him outside of defensive posture and faceoffs.

Yeah, i guess my point is that was also true for bones for about 90% of his tenure as a penguin.

He's not ideal certainly.

PS I'm sorry, I'm sitting in the airport parking lot waiting to pick someone up

 

[Empoleon8771]

With Sheahan, you can win a cup with his production at 3C if you get over a .930 save% out of your goalie and your entire top-6 is a PPG or higher. So not exactly a recipe for success I think. By technicality, you can win with Sheahan as a 3C. That's not a good defense for Sheahan actually being a cup caliber 3C, that's just saying you technically can win with a Sheahan level contributor at 3C. You can also technically win a cup with Niemi as a starter, having a Fedetenko-Talbot 2nd line winger duo or a Timonen-Cuminsky bottom pair playing 8:30 a night.

 

[Shady Machine]

The problem is that unless you give him Kessel or Guentzel, pretty much every winger you're giving him is going to be a "plug" by your standard. The only options you have are Rust, Hornqvist, Simon and Sprong, and all of those guys have some pretty glaring flaws with their games.

I still feel like you need a Sheary type of LWer to be playing with Brassard and Rust for that line to be at its most effective. Simon and Sprong are both way too slow to be the Sheary type of winger for Brassard (plus Sprong doesn't play LW).

That was supposed to be Simon. He has to be the "Sheary type". If Simon-Rust/Hornqvist isn't enough for Brass to make an effective 3rd line, then we are in a bind. Brass needs to be better, but I don't think he's been as bad as people are letting on. He just needs to get settled with some linemates and let them stick.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah, i guess my point is that was also true for bones for about 90% of his tenure as a penguin.

He's not ideal certainly.

PS I'm sorry, I'm sitting in the airport parking lot waiting to pick someone up

Nah you're good. I went on a bit of a rant. No offense to Sheahan as he is a serviceable player, but I just don't like him and I think Bones, while stats don't really back me up, is a better player at all phases of the game.

But Bones is gone and Sheahan at $2MM, assuming he can produce 25+ ES points, is a really good bargain. I just don't see the upside there to win without some other dominoes falling in the right direction.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Having the worst defensive stats on the team with all his line mates having better stats away from him is quite a basis. I know you're going to disagree but its not like people are dreaming these things up from thin air.

And we know that the offence will come for most of the guys who are currently quiet. We don't know Sprong's defence will.

<9 minutes a game with 70% d-zone starts, Peat. What do people expect here? Which scoring wing prospects do you know that have succeeded under those conditions?

If there was a manual on how to misuse and minimize a scoring wing prospect, you couldn't execute it any better than the Pens have so far this season. JR just admitted as much. The story isn't his possession numbers, which should be expected with how he's been handled, but his production so far in spite of it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That was supposed to be Simon. He has to be the "Sheary type". If Simon-Rust/Hornqvist isn't enough for Brass to make an effective 3rd line, then we are in a bind. Brass needs to be better, but I don't think he's been as bad as people are letting on. He just needs to get settled with some linemates and let them stick.

I feel like Simon is too slow to be that Sheary type of LWer, at least what I would want for that line. I'd want to surround Brassard with 2 fast wingers who can bring grit and offensive talent. I don't think that's Simon, Simon doesn't have the skating and I don't think Simon goes to the dirty areas as much as Sheary did.

I keep wanting to use the word "gnat" if that makes sense. I don't think Simon is that, while I do think Sheary was that. I don't think Sprong is that either, he's also too slow and doesn't go to the gritty areas enough.

 

[Peat]

With Sheahan, you can win a cup with his production at 3C if you get over a .930 save% out of your goalie and your entire top-6 is a PPG or higher. So not exactly a recipe for success I think. By technicality, you can win with Sheahan as a 3C. That's not a good defense for Sheahan actually being a cup caliber 3C, that's just saying you technically can win with a Sheahan level contributor at 3C. You can also technically win a cup with Niemi as a starter, having a Fedetenko-Talbot 2nd line winger duo or a Timonen-Cuminsky bottom pair playing 8:30 a night.

We didn't have that production when we won with Bonino putting up .33 ppg throughout the play-offs, which Sheahan is probably capable of.

I get the argument but you're pushing it way too far.

 

[Andy99]

I feel like Simon is too slow to be that Sheary type of LWer, at least what I would want for that line. I'd want to surround Brassard with 2 fast wingers who can bring grit and offensive talent. I don't think that's Simon, Simon doesn't have the skating and I don't think Simon goes to the dirty areas as much as Sheary did.

I keep wanting to use the word "gnat" if that makes sense. I don't think Simon is that, while I do think Sheary was that. I don't think Sprong is that either, he's also too slow and doesn't go to the gritty areas enough.

I think our best option right now for L3 is Rust-Brass-Sprong if we want to run a line that some scoring possibilities...unfortunately Rust is our third best LW and that's not his best side...but Brass needs some speed with him, and I don't think Horny is going to cut it...really dislike the Simon-Brass-Horny line that Sully looks like he's going to use in game...I'd go

Jake-Sid-Horny (sorry Sid, suck it up)
H-G-H
Rust-Brass-Sprong (try Sprong at LW if that's better)
Sheahan-Cullen-Simon

 

[Empoleon8771]

We didn't have that production when we won with Bonino putting up .33 ppg throughout the play-offs, which Sheahan is probably capable of.

I get the argument but you're pushing it way too far.

You had Crosby, Malkin and Kessel all at a PPG or higher and you had Guentzel nearly setting a record for goals by a rookie in the playoffs, though. Plus you also had your 4th line producing like a 3rd line and you had a team save% of like .930.

If you get a bunch of other stuff to go right, you can win a cup with your 3C putting up a .33 PPG. If you get multiple PPG players, a goalie putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers, a rookie nearly setting a record for goals in a playoff run and a 4C that outscores your 3C, then yeah, you can get by with a 3C putting up a .33 PPG and still win a cup.

I think our best option right now for L3 is Rust-Brass-Sprong if we want to run a line that some scoring possibilities...unfortunately Rust is our third best LW and that's not his best side...but Brass needs some speed with him, and I don't think Horny is going to cut it...really dislike the Simon-Brass-Horny line that Sully looks like he's going to use in game...I'd go

Jake-Sid-Horny (sorry Sid, suck it up)
H-G-H
Rust-Brass-Sprong (try Sprong at LW if that's better)
Sheahan-Cullen-Simon

I don't think this would be much better than Simon-Brassard-Rust, if at all better. You have Rust less effective on LW and any change from Simon to Sprong isn't significant. You also still have the problems on that line that you had with Simon there, just with different strengths.

 

[Tender Rip]

Kessel believes he'll add more to his cup collection with Geno and if unfocused/disenchanted with what he gets instead, won't do a huge amount to help us win the next one.

Kessel is not the coach.

But that's in the future and I'm talking about now. Phil and Geno are currently our best pairing by a mile - maybe the current best in the NHL.

I might be too critical of Phil, after all his warts are well known and he has been doing what he is good at for the majority of his time as a Pen. But I don't think we see the best version of Geno with him, and for me that it much more important. This is a pairing that despite scoring bundles and looking amazing offensively when they're on, is hardly even a plus pairing ES. I think if you take away 3 on 3 OT which is really a different sport, they were not actually outscoring their opposition together even last season where Phil beat his career high. This is despite getting very favorable matchup's and zone starts. They produce a lot, and they get scored on a lot. Certainly I would not put them close to being the best duo in the league, because the best duos score much more on the opposition than the other way around.

If we're talking about design, wasn't something like this the original design for Kessel here anyway?

Even if it was, we then found out the good and the bad of that, and subsequently found Nirvana with depth. I don't want Geno to see his shots total be shaved as much as they are with Phil. I don't want him to do the D-work for two. I honestly don't think Kessel elevates Geno, rather Geno gets too cute and defers too much. I've said that since Kessel's first season here and through good and bad periods alike. They can of course be explosive together, no doubt, but I don't think it is a good allocation of resources.

Either you never discard original designs and the ones for Kessel and Brassard are mutually exclusive, or at some point you do and make new designs that reflect the current situation. If we have not reached that point with Brassard already, at what point do we?

Again, it doesn't take a mind reader to know that Brassard/Kessel was what JR and Sully had in mind when we landed him. This to get the depth they've been preaching with a C good enough to justify Kessel on the third. fClearly they were OK moving Kessel away from Geno, which is easy to understand considering what 71 has been doing with most any other compatible winger combo he gets - when healthy. I imagine part of this is also Sullivan's much talked about frustrations with Kessel.

Is trying to make a deep offence more important than racking up points now and getting a strong start?

I think that is a weird question? Particularly for me who doesn't rate that duo anywhere near as much as most here. We have supposedly the deepest group of forwards we have had in the Sid/Geno era. I cannot abide that we should feel locked to a line that JR obtained Brassard to get away from.

And why can't Brassard give us a deep offence without getting Kessel? That's been tested less than Brassard and Kessel.

Because Guentzel should not be removed from Sid, and if he doesn't get Kessel either, that means we just don't have the wingers to genuinely expect him to dominate or reproduce previous production given the type of player he is. Look at when he has had success in the past and see who his wingers were. Chris Kreider and JT Miller with the Rangers for instance, or Rick Nash and JT Miller. Mark Stone and Ryan Dzingel with Ottawa to mention another.

I am in favour of trying the two together. But if events continue like this and it keeps the pair of them apart, I will not regard it as a particular injustice or mistake.

Well, not giving it a chance would certainly be a big mistake, IMO. Don't know about injustice .
Either way, while not perfect in my book, I do see it as a baby step forward that they go with Horny on Brassard's line tomorrow and better yet we hopefully shelve the Brassard as winger thing.

 

[Tom Hanks]

And yet based on the stats, he was at his most productive when Sheahan was his center and Rust I believe was on LW. With Malkin (iirc) he was only +1 (or 2?) in goal differential.

Was definitely Jake. Rust was with Phil with Brassard or Malkin.

 

[Peat]

<9 minutes a game with 70% d-zone starts, Peat. What do people expect here? Which scoring wing prospects do you know that have succeeded under those conditions?

If there was a manual on how to misuse and minimize a scoring wing prospect, you couldn't execute it any better than the Pens have so far this season. JR just admitted as much. The story isn't his possession numbers, which should be expected with how he's been handled, but his production so far in spite of it.

This isn't about whether he's doing well or not with the situation or how right it is or whether he should stay there, its just straight up how good is he currently compared to our other forwards. I don't see how the context matters there. Either there are reasons to criticise what he brings to the table or there aren't.

He's our worse defensive forward and his history of production is - as of the present - not significantly superior to what's recently been showed by most of our players. 11/12 best forward sounds right.

You had Crosby, Malkin and Kessel all at a PPG or higher and you had Guentzel nearly setting a record for goals by a rookie in the playoffs, though. Plus you also had your 4th line producing like a 3rd line and you had a team save% of like .930.

If you get a bunch of other stuff to go right, you can win a cup with your 3C putting up a .33 PPG. If you get multiple PPG players, a goalie putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers, a rookie nearly setting a record for goals in a playoff run and a 4C that outscores your 3C, then yeah, you can get by with a 3C putting up a .33 PPG and still win a cup.

But that isn't what you originally said. You said all top 6. And I can't help but notice that two of LA's centres in 14-15 put up less than .33ppg at ES and their goaltender had .911.

Don't ruin your argument through hyperbole.

 

[Peat]

I might be too critical of Phil, after all his warts are well known and he has been doing what he is good at for the majority of his time as a Pen. But I don't think we see the best version of Geno with him, and for me that it much more important. This is a pairing that despite scoring bundles and looking amazing offensively when they're on, is hardly even a plus pairing ES. I think if you take away 3 on 3 OT which is really a different sport, they were not actually outscoring their opposition together even last season where Phil beat his career high. This is despite getting very favorable matchup's and zone starts. They produce a lot, and they get scored on a lot. Certainly I would not put them close to being the best duo in the league, because the best duos score much more on the opposition than the other way around.

Even if it was, we then found out the good and the bad of that, and subsequently found Nirvana with depth. I don't want Geno to see his shots total be shaved as much as they are with Phil. I don't want him to do the D-work for two. I honestly don't think Kessel elevates Geno, rather Geno gets too cute and defers too much. I've said that since Kessel's first season here and through good and bad periods alike. They can of course be explosive together, no doubt, but I don't think it is a good allocation of resources.

Again, it doesn't take a mind reader to know that Brassard/Kessel was what JR and Sully had in mind when we landed him. This to get the depth they've been preaching with a C good enough to justify Kessel on the third. fClearly they were OK moving Kessel away from Geno, which is easy to understand considering what 71 has been doing with most any other compatible winger combo he gets - when healthy. I imagine part of this is also Sullivan's much talked about frustrations with Kessel.

I think that is a weird question? Particularly for me who doesn't rate that duo anywhere near as much as most here. We have supposedly the deepest group of forwards we have had in the Sid/Geno era. I cannot abide that we should feel locked to a line that JR obtained Brassard to get away from.

Because Guentzel should not be removed from Sid, and if he doesn't get Kessel either, that means we just don't have the wingers to genuinely expect him to dominate or reproduce previous production given the type of player he is. Look at when he has had success in the past and see who his wingers were. Chris Kreider and JT Miller with the Rangers for instance, or Rick Nash and JT Miller. Mark Stone and Ryan Dzingel with Ottawa to mention another.

Well, not giving it a chance would certainly be a big mistake, IMO. Don't know about injustice .
Either way, while not perfect in my book, I do see it as a baby step forward that they go with Horny on Brassard's line tomorrow and better yet we hopefully shelve the Brassard as winger thing.

Look. I'm as big a member of the "But Why Do You Want Phil With Geno?" Club as anyone here.

But honesty compels me to point out that we won a cup with them and that its a pairing capable of going for a prolonged stretch at a 75% GF%. Which is pretty close to what they're doing right now. If things change, then obviously it makes sense to split them up, but to split them up right now if they continue what they're doing? That is what I'm getting at. Not "Whether we should up Geno and Kessel in general for Brassard" for them but "Whether we should do it with them in this form when they're by far and away the best forward line on the team" and "should we if necessary force the pair apart when in red hot form to try Kessel with Brassard more".

edit: Also, so you agree that plans do get redrawn from time to time - if so, when do you redraw Brassard's?

(And the depth Nirvana was very temporary).

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

They're complementary pieces that won't bring much more to the table consistently than a great shot.

I mean that’s certainly accurate, but I feel like it’s really dumbing down their archetypes. Stylistically, the way they play the game is so different. That’s what I was getting at.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Neal has never played with so few minutes...ever. Neal was literally getting 7 more minutes a game in his rookie season.

File this quote from JR under "O" for "Obviously":

“For a player with (Sprong's) kind of scoring ability, he’s just not going to get that many opportunities to score. This is the place that we’ve put him in.”

I'm trying to fathom how they can recognize that but then not put 2 and 2 together:

The Penguins are still searching for some secondary scoring

Well who is Sprong replacing? Hard to argue he should be getting slotted at or above Hornqvist and Rust or Phil. Stinks, but I’ll say it again— Penguins and Sullivan are not here to develop talent. They’ve been in tight games and it’s hard to blame Sullivan for icing the guys he trusts in those situations.

Injuries will come and Sprong will get opportunities. We are only 6 games in. Just have to be patient. But there is going to be a tipping point, and he’s gonna need to force his way in.

 

[Gurglesons]

This isn't about whether he's doing well or not with the situation or how right it is or whether he should stay there, its just straight up how good is he currently compared to our other forwards. I don't see how the context matters there. Either there are reasons to criticise what he brings to the table or there aren't.

He's our worse defensive forward and his history of production is - as of the present - not significantly superior to what's recently been showed by most of our players. 11/12 best forward sounds right.



But that isn't what you originally said. You said all top 6. And I can't help but notice that two of LA's centres in 14-15 put up less than .33ppg at ES and their goaltender had .911.

Don't ruin your argument through hyperbole.

I think we do have to acknowledge that Bonino and Cullen were a huge reason why our defensive numbers were good in the 16-17 playoffs.

Not sure Sheahan can do that when push comes to shove in the playoffs, but I held the same opinion about Eller.

 

[Gurglesons]

<9 minutes a game with 70% d-zone starts, Peat. What do people expect here? Which scoring wing prospects do you know that have succeeded under those conditions?

If there was a manual on how to misuse and minimize a scoring wing prospect, you couldn't execute it any better than the Pens have so far this season. JR just admitted as much. The story isn't his possession numbers, which should be expected with how he's been handled, but his production so far in spite of it.

We don’t expect anything. Like Rutherford said, he has done nothing to prove he should be above our other RWs and he also isn’t being put in a situation where that likely changes if we are healthy.