Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Well, now what?

Discussion in 'Pittsburgh Penguins' started by DegenX, Oct 16, 2018.

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  1. DegenX

    DegenX ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    From CapFriendly
    AHL thread is here. Links to 2018 draft pick threads and QO information are in the first post.
     
  2. DegenX

    DegenX ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    The last one was wandering a bit, so I didn't copy over any posts. So, if we can re-sign Hagelin for basically the same amount, do you do it?
     
  3. Tasty Biscuits

    Tasty Biscuits with fancy sauce

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  4. Andy99

    Andy99 Registered User

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    I'm on record saying nope, and I'm sticking with that...he does so much for the team but I don't want us to be the Red Wings either and keep re-signing older players to term...gotta let him and Brass walk...hopefully Johnson can come in and replace him, or we can find a younger speedy forechecker/pker in FA...it's not like we're going to miss his offense
     
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  5. Peat

    Peat Registered User

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    I change my mind on this every two weeks.

    I think I'm more No than Yes. I love what he brings to this roster and I love what he can do besides Geno, but a certain amount of roster refresh is needed and I'm not sure I want to be caught holding the can on a player who relies on his speed and has more games on the clock than virtually anyone else since entering the league.

    But when he warms up during the stretch, and our options come down to resign Hagelin, waste assets/cap on getting a different version of Hagelin, or relying on WBS players who aren't ready or as fast... I'll probably flop back.

    And then he'll have a quiet play offs and Free Agency will look awesome and we'll speculate about keeping Brassard and I'll flip back to No.

    If Adam Johnson and Thomas Di Pauli could have outstanding seasons, that'd be awesome. Nothing like internal replacements to let you move on.

    I'll say this - if Hagelin moves on and isn't replaced by a guy as fast, we need to seriously consider whether the team identity is still speed.
     
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  6. DegenX

    DegenX ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Geno, Phil and Letang are signed through '22. I'd be willing to sign him to the same amount for three years. It's not about his own production, but about all the other things he does that will make him difficult to replace. I have to say, it's only over the last few months that it's really sinking in that our core is aging. At what point to we transition from 'Win Now' to 'Plan for the Future'? In a perfect world, we'd be doing both but our cupboard is pretty bare right now.
     
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  7. Sidney the Kidney

    Sidney the Kidney 3-Peat + 1

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    No. I like Hagelin and what he brings, but there's a limit to how much you can spend on a guy who doesn't produce, regardless of what else he brings to the table.

    If they remove the salary cap, that's another story. At that point, it's just whatever the owner is willing to spend. So overpaying for a 30 point guy won't matter. But in a cap world, you can't have a guy making $5 million or whatever who doesn't provide you enough at both ends of the rink, not just one end.
     
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  8. Peat

    Peat Registered User

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    Thing is, looking at 'Win Now', particularly with an ageing core, there's an argument that we need more hunger, more energy around them. At his best, Hagelin does as much legwork for a star as anyone, but how much of his best are we getting now a season? How much next season?

    Maybe this is like Bonino where we accept its going to be hard and expensive to replace what they did, but that its ultimately best for the team to shoot for the stars and let the vet walk.
     
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  9. Empoleon8771

    Empoleon8771 It's Sprong's Fault

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    There is no way I'm re-signing Hagelin, he's not worth the money he's making now and he's not getting less on an extension. Let some dumb team overpay for a 2x cup winner, you churn and burn players like Hagelin.
     
  10. K Fleur

    K Fleur If You Know You Know

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    I feel like a player with Hagelin’s skill set would be easier to find now than it would have 3-4ish years ago.

    But then again I don’t have any specific players in mind.
     
  11. mpp9

    mpp9 Registered User

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    So predictably the Wild are starting out like trash. They might look to move some players eventually.

    Nino might be an even better option to look into at some point than Saad. Position flexibility, bit better all around game with similar ES numbers.
     
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  12. Peat

    Peat Registered User

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    Yes please.
     
  13. EdwardBlake

    EdwardBlake This is all a joke.

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    I say no. And I really like Hagelin. He brings a lot of speed, fore/back checking, and is solid on the PK, to the lineup. But we have an aging roster you have to allow youth to try and come in. While we do not have a lot of it on the farm we have to give them chances during big contract years. Which this off season Guentzel will need a new contract. While its his first contract coming off his ELC, he is still going to get quite the raise. Which allowing the Hagelin contract to simply expire should cover his deal or the grand majority of it.

    I would say its safe to say Brassard walks. The organization seems pretty high on Sheahan, so I think they'll try and bring him back as long as they do not have to overpay, and I can't imagine they would have too. So RS probably back on a 2-3 year deal. ZAR will probably be given a 1-3 year prove it to me deal and see full time with the team next season. And I imagine Blueger will get a shot during preason, cup of tea to start the season, and see if he can provide at the NHL level.

    Although, looking at the free agency list for wing next season. Save for a few names. Its a pretty long list of just... MEH... So if Hagelin were willing to take a deal 3 years or shorter at his current number and no higher. I would have to sit an ponder it for a minute... But I get a feeling that that they will let him walk and give his money to Guentzel.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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  14. ZeroPucksGiven

    ZeroPucksGiven Registered User

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    Nope, even if he takes a PAY CUT you can't have aging role players like this on your team
    I believe the Pens hoped that Rust takes over the Hagelin role and paid him as such: use your speed to create space for the other 2 F's.

    Problem is Rust doesn't have Hag's wheels (few do) and worse, he doesn't have Hags' vision. I believe the Rust contract is going to be very disappointing for everyone here.

    The ironic thing is, the Pens could've theoretically let Rust play out his contact and had a Rust-lite in Archibald waiting for such a role.

    Note I'm not a Rust hater, but when you sign that kind of a contact my expectations go up with it.
     
  15. Peat

    Peat Registered User

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    Something else to consider here - I think it was @Warm Cookies who posted it here originally, but I believe they're forecasting the cap to be between 81.4m and 85m next season. Even the lowest number is a substantial bump that gives us a decent amount of flexibility, but say it does go to 85m - 4m for Hagelin in an 85m world? That seems pretty fair to me.

    If we are going to have a speed identity, we're going to need at least two Hagelin/Rust players and preferably 3.
     
  16. madinsomniac

    madinsomniac Registered User

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    Speed is going to get real expensive now that everyone wants it... and we aren’t even the fastest team anymore... may not even be top 5 fastest....
     
  17. mpp9

    mpp9 Registered User

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    It'll hurt our speed game badly losing him but you can't afford to pay both him and Rust 3+ mil. Or at least in theory, you shouldn't.

    I still like the idea of Byron if we can't replace Hagelin with a legit top 6 winger with some speed and defense.
     
  18. Andy99

    Andy99 Registered User

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    We’re average at best, maybe top third of the league but not in the top 10 even...need to be drafting that speed...
     
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  19. mpp9

    mpp9 Registered User

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    We're not gonna overwhelm teams like in 16 with it. But in terms of a combination of speed AND talent? Up front I'd say only Toronto can better us. And Toronto is a calamity show on defense until they show otherwise.

    It's a bit too late to rely on drafting to fix the issue. Those players won't be NHL regulars for at least 2-3 years. And that's nearing the end of our window.

    JR has hit on a number of trades. I think he'll address it that way if need be.
     
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  20. Peat

    Peat Registered User

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    We can't afford to pay Hagelin 3+ but we can afford to pay Byron that? Is he really that much better?
     
  21. mpp9

    mpp9 Registered User

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    20 goals in back to back seasons averaging about the same ice time and not playing with Malkin and Kessel.

    I'd say that's better.
     
  22. EdwardBlake

    EdwardBlake This is all a joke.

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    I don't see Montreal just trading a guy after they signed him. Even with as dumpster fire of a management team as they have. Stranger things have happened, but I am of the view its a safer bet that a team isn't will/wanting to trade a guy after a multiyear extension is given.
     
  23. Andy99

    Andy99 Registered User

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    I would add TB and WSH to that list...I think TOR and Pens defense is quite comparable but it doesn’t really matter right now for them because Andersen has been better than Murray....
     
  24. Riptide

    Riptide Registered User Sponsor

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    Cash or cap? He's only making 3.66m this year... at that price I'd seriously consider it... but ultimately it would come down to the cap, what Guentzel gets, and what moves are made roster wise. The closer it gets to 3m, the more I try to make it happen. And if it gets under 3m, you do it and figure out how to make it work. But under 3m is probably a pipe dream - even if he gets term.
     
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  25. ColePens

    ColePens RIP parabola & Fugu

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    I personally feel that Hags will never score a goal the rest of his life. But you let that contract run out and grab the next fast guy w/ defensive responsibility. There are players to keep and players that have to go in/out of the team. Hags is one of those who is hitting his expiration date.

    His thankless job will be missed beyond belief. Similar to us missing Sheary, too, for different reasons such as his NHL finish. But you have to move on to the next player in this salary cap era.
     
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