Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Well, now what?

[Andy99]

They are rolling it like a third line. Expectation is that Brassard can carry Hornqvist or Rust with Simon or someone similar to score. He hasn’t so far.

Some criticism for his minutes can be lodged at Sullivan. The majority of the criticism is that Brassard has not played up to his level.

It’s going to take time
A whole lot of precious time
It’s going to take patience and time, um
To do it right, child

 

[Empoleon8771]

Am I the only person that does not see why Sprong is constantly compared to Neal? Completely different playing styles imo.

They're similar in that they're triggermen who really only have a good shot. You can say they're different based on Neal's physicality or Sprong's playmaking, but they're still the same basic type of player. They're complementary pieces that won't bring much more to the table consistently than a great shot.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

They're similar in that they're triggermen who really only have a good shot. You can say they're different based on Neal's physicality or Sprong's playmaking, but they're still the same basic type of player. They're complementary pieces that won't bring much more to the table consistently than a great shot.

Well, at least with Neal he was put in a spot to actually showcase that shot of his. Meanwhile, we have Sprong getting what, 6-7mins a game and 2 out 3 periods to prove himself on the lethal 4th line?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well, at least with Neal he was put in a spot to actually showcase that shot of his. Meanwhile, we have Sprong getting what, 6-7mins a game and 2 out 3 periods to prove himself on the lethal 4th line?

Neal was also proven to be an NHL contributor by having 72 goals before even coming to the Penguins. Neal was a proven ~30 goal scorer when the Penguins got him, Sprong hasn't even proven he's a NHLer yet.

Neal was a power forward who had proven he could score goals, and the Penguins turned him into a 40 goal pure sniper. To compare his usage to Sprong's usage is nonsensical. Even if you're comparing Sprong to 2008 Neal, the comparison doesn't work because the 2018 Penguins are way better than the 2008 Stars were. Neal got top-6 minutes immediately because his team sucked.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well, at least with Neal he was put in a spot to actually showcase that shot of his. Meanwhile, we have Sprong getting what, 6-7mins a game and 2 out 3 periods to prove himself on the lethal 4th line?

Neal is a far better player than Sprong ever will be.

I’ve seen Sprong take one or maybe two shots that look like Neal’s since he was sent down in his rookie year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I was going to debate claiming Neal is better than Sprong will ever be, but I may actually agree with that. Neal has pretty much proven he's about a 30 goal player per 82 games, his stats outside of Pittsburgh have all been very consistent with his goals/game. He had a 29 goals and 51 points/82 games pace with both Vegas and Nashville and a 28 goals and 50 points/82 games pace with Dallas, he has produced basically the same outside of his inflated stats with the Penguins.

Sprong is going to be a major success if he can hit the numbers Neal has consistently hit and has continued to hit. Neal today is the same that he has been outside of Pittsburgh his entire career, so I'd probably agree that it's super unlikely Sprong ever gets to Neal's level.

 

[Gurglesons]

I was going to debate claiming Neal is better than Sprong will ever be, but I may actually agree with that. Neal has pretty much proven he's about a 30 goal player per 82 games, his stats outside of Pittsburgh have all been very consistent with his goals/game. He had a 29 goals and 51 points/82 games pace with both Vegas and Nashville and a 28 goals and 50 points/82 games pace with Dallas, he has produced basically the same outside of his inflated stats with the Penguins.

Sprong is going to be a major success if he can hit the numbers Neal has consistently hit and has continued to hit. Neal today is the same that he has been outside of Pittsburgh his entire career, so I'd probably agree that it's super unlikely Sprong ever gets to Neal's level.

The main issue is Sprong not being able to get off his shot in NHL play.

Neal despite who he played with throughout his career, playing either wing has been able to get his shot through.

Sprong has yet to have a dangerous shot this season. I’d assume that is one of the huge reasons the coaching staff is on him.

 

[Tom Hanks]

The main issue is Sprong not being able to get off his shot in NHL play.

Neal despite who he played with throughout his career, playing either wing has been able to get his shot through.

Sprong has yet to have a dangerous shot this season. I’d assume that is one of the huge reasons the coaching staff is on him.

Sprong has also only attempted 7 shots in 6 games (only 3 on net). That’s a problem even if you only average 7 mins ES time but also since he averages 1:30 mins a game on the PP.

 

[vodeni]

Then who are you advocating for... because if Simon and Hornqvist are not good enough, we don't have anyone else who's going to be good enough for that line.

Rust on RW and try something on the lW, I don't think Simon is solution, maybe play Cullen there with Sprong, or try someone from AHL...we are two wings short for good four lines (Sprong is not cutting it and Sprong should be given three games with Sid to see if he can handle it).

 

[Tom Hanks]

Rust on RW and try something on the lW, I don't think Simon is solution, maybe play Cullen there with Sprong, or try someone from AHL...we are two wings short for good four lines (Sprong is not cutting it and Sprong should be given three games with Sid to see if he can handle it).

I think Simon will be given the shot in the short term otherwise there will be a trade unless someone from WBS stands out. I believe all the high scorers down there have been RW’s lol

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well, at least with Neal he was put in a spot to actually showcase that shot of his. Meanwhile, we have Sprong getting what, 6-7mins a game and 2 out 3 periods to prove himself on the lethal 4th line?

It's like it's way easier to break into the league on a poop team. Weird.

 

[Ugene Magic]

You clearly dislike Ruh a lot more than me. I'm very happy with him playing that many RS games.

I dislike he brings next to nothing as far as ice hockey goes.

He'll be a placeholder and nothing more, as soon as someone comes in he sits, sits for a reason. I get for him being cheap, but to actually say you'd count on him or him to make a difference, well....

I don't buy into it, or that people actually go to task for him. If he actually brought something tangible I'd be alright with it. Being a warm body who can skate isn't enough.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I was going to debate claiming Neal is better than Sprong will ever be, but I may actually agree with that. Neal has pretty much proven he's about a 30 goal player per 82 games, his stats outside of Pittsburgh have all been very consistent with his goals/game. He had a 29 goals and 51 points/82 games pace with both Vegas and Nashville and a 28 goals and 50 points/82 games pace with Dallas, he has produced basically the same outside of his inflated stats with the Penguins.

Sprong is going to be a major success if he can hit the numbers Neal has consistently hit and has continued to hit. Neal today is the same that he has been outside of Pittsburgh his entire career, so I'd probably agree that it's super unlikely Sprong ever gets to Neal's level.

He also didn't have to play behind multiple players at his position.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The issue is that for any offensive zone faceoff with our best offensive D men, we are better off with Geno or Sid. For a tough D zone faceoff, we're better off with Sheahan's line, with Sid as a 2nd option. So the opportunities just aren't there for Brass. But we'll be very glad we have him when Sid or Geno go down for any length of time.

And really, a big part of me would love to see PH with Geno more often, just not with Hags as the LW. That will probably mean you've got Hags and Kessel with Brass, which would be a pretty interesting line.

If Brass could get some time with better linemates, it might be worth throwing him into the mix a little more often. If the coach can't manage that, then it goes back to the question of what exactly did they think they were getting?

AFAIC, any combo of speedy two-way LW/skilled RW would be great for Brassard. Hags and Kessel definitely meet that standard, but they aren't the only ones.

Was it a disconnect though? It seems just as likely to me that everybody involved was agreed about what would happen and that it was a group mistake. Maybe everyone thought he'd be a great option for Kessel and he got here and nobody was satisfied with it (particularly Kessel)? Hell, what evidence is there to say that the front office and coaches are disconnected on Brassard now? It looks like neither Rutherford or Sully are that sold that he has to be 3C.

I'm not really seeing how this is how a sign of the org being in trouble.

Also... I thought Brassard was here partly so we didn't have to put a high skill winger on the 3rd. I'm not going to blame him right now for failing to get things done with Rust and Horny out of form, but both have a history of performing on the 3rd line. Simon's pretty skillful too. If he long term can't do it with that quality of player, that's an issue.

How long was Kessel playing with a healthy Brassard? I'd say not nearly long enough to draw any definitive conclusions.

And he was brought in to be the 3C so the team could roll 3 scoring lines, one way or another. Brassard's a good scoring line center, but Brass and Horny/Rust are not capable of being the 2 main parts of a decent scoring line. If you saw another team throwing that out as a scoring line would you be at all worried about it? I sure wouldn't.

If Sully and JR were both thinking Brassard didn't have to be a center, then they had a bad plan. A 30 year old who's been a center his whole career being able to thrive on the wing should be a nice surprise, not something you count on.

They are rolling it like a third line. Expectation is that Brassard can carry Hornqvist or Rust with Simon or someone similar to score. He hasn’t so far.

Some criticism for his minutes can be lodged at Sullivan. The majority of the criticism is that Brassard has not played up to his level.

If that's the case, they need to adjust their expectations. That level of talent's not gonna allow you to roll 3 scoring lines. At best you'll get a half-baked scoring line with some good possession that doesn't produce.

Two simple things to get Brassard going:

1. Give him a little talent to play with.
2. Keep him at center.

Rust isn't a LWer, I am firmly in the position that Rust isn't a good LWer here. I also don't think Sprong would do anything to help Brassard, all Sprong would be able to do is score on Brassard feeds at a better rate than Rust and Hornqvist would. He wouldn't actually help Brassard play any better, he'd just be able to score more goals than Hornqvist or Rust would with the same opportunities. Sprong isn't a skill player like Kessel or Guentzel is, Sprong is a Neal-esque skill player.

He's been used there, so it's clearly an option. But more importantly, it's what makes sense for the roster...I haven't seen anything to support the "Rust isn't a good LW here" opinion.

I'm not really sure what to say about the "Sprong scoring goals on passes from Brassard doesn't help Brassard" position. I'll take a guy who'll convert all day long. That's why you put a ditch digger on the other side, but we only have so many.

 

[Tom Hanks]

If Brass could get some time with better linemates, it might be worth throwing him into the mix a little more often. If the coach can't manage that, then it goes back to the question of what exactly did they think they were getting?

AFAIC, any combo of speedy two-way LW/skilled RW would be great for Brassard. Hags and Kessel definitely meet that standard, but they aren't the only ones.



How long was Kessel playing with a healthy Brassard? I'd say not nearly long enough to draw any definitive conclusions.

And he was brought in to be the 3C so the team could roll 3 scoring lines, one way or another. Brassard's a good scoring line center, but Brass and Horny/Rust are not capable of being the 2 main parts of a decent scoring line. If you saw another team throwing that out as a scoring line would you be at all worried about it? I sure wouldn't.

If Sully and JR were both thinking Brassard didn't have to be a center, then they had a bad plan. A 30 year old who's been a center his whole career being able to thrive on the wing should be a nice surprise, not something you count on.



If that's the case, they need to adjust their expectations. That level of talent's not gonna allow you to roll 3 scoring lines. At best you'll get a half-baked scoring line with some good possession that doesn't produce.

Two simple things to get Brassard going:

1. Give him a little talent to play with.
2. Keep him at center.



He's been used there, so it's clearly an option. But more importantly, it's what makes sense for the roster...I haven't seen anything to support the "Rust isn't a good LW here" opinion.

I'm not really sure what to say about the "Sprong scoring goals on passes from Brassard doesn't help Brassard" position. I'll take a guy who'll convert all day long. That's why you put a ditch digger on the other side, but we only have so many.

If we had a LW who was more of a scorer like Sheary I think a X-Brassard-Hornqvist line would be a scoring line for sure that could take advantage of matchups.

Brass and Horny average 49 and 52 points per 82 over their careers

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The main issue is Sprong not being able to get off his shot in NHL play.

Neal despite who he played with throughout his career, playing either wing has been able to get his shot through.

Sprong has yet to have a dangerous shot this season. I’d assume that is one of the huge reasons the coaching staff is on him.

Neal has never played with so few minutes...ever. Neal was literally getting 7 more minutes a game in his rookie season.

File this quote from JR under "O" for "Obviously":

“For a player with (Sprong's) kind of scoring ability, he’s just not going to get that many opportunities to score. This is the place that we’ve put him in.”

I'm trying to fathom how they can recognize that but then not put 2 and 2 together:

The Penguins are still searching for some secondary scoring

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If we had a LW who was more of a scorer like Sheary I think a X-Brassard-Hornqvist line would be a scoring line for sure that could take advantage of matchups.

Brass and Horny average 49 and 52 points per 82 over their careers

Possibly, since it has some of those complementary elements, but we don't have that. What we have got has a good chance to be better, if we'd give it a shot.

 

[Peat]

I dislike he brings next to nothing as far as ice hockey goes.

He'll be a placeholder and nothing more, as soon as someone comes in he sits, sits for a reason. I get for him being cheap, but to actually say you'd count on him or him to make a difference, well....

I don't buy into it, or that people actually go to task for him. If he actually brought something tangible I'd be alright with it. Being a warm body who can skate isn't enough.

16-17 Ruh did make a difference. Some great production. But even the last year version that mainly just skated around, passed well, and was adequate in our own when not getting bullied on the boards... made a difference by not mercilessly sucking. He's mastered that better than some 6th dmen I've seen. To complain about that in an 8th dman is asking for a level of depth very few sides can muster and that's hella expensive.

How long was Kessel playing with a healthy Brassard? I'd say not nearly long enough to draw any definitive conclusions.

And he was brought in to be the 3C so the team could roll 3 scoring lines, one way or another. Brassard's a good scoring line center, but Brass and Horny/Rust are not capable of being the 2 main parts of a decent scoring line. If you saw another team throwing that out as a scoring line would you be at all worried about it? I sure wouldn't.

If Sully and JR were both thinking Brassard didn't have to be a center, then they had a bad plan. A 30 year old who's been a center his whole career being able to thrive on the wing should be a nice surprise, not something you count on.

Its not that they seem to be thinking he doesn't have to be a centre, its that they are thinking that he doesn't have to be our centre. That they are free to try whatever with him. And that the disconnect you're talking about doesn't seem to be obviously there.

And honestly if he's not good enough to form a decent scoring line with one of Rust/Horny on his right, then maybe they've got a point. If he needs Kessel - or Sprong to perform very close to his ceiling - then I'm not sure he's going to do enough better than Sheahan did with those tools to be worth it.

And 14 games, 146 minutes. That's a decent sized sample. Throw in training and I think there's enough to reach some conclusions. Not saying they did mind, just throwing it out there as possibilities of what happened.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Possibly, since it has some of those complementary elements, but we don't have that. What we have got has a good chance to be better, if we'd give it a shot.

Not yet........

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Its not that they seem to be thinking he doesn't have to be a centre, its that they are thinking that he doesn't have to be our centre. That they are free to try whatever with him. And that the disconnect you're talking about doesn't seem to be obviously there.

And honestly if he's not good enough to form a decent scoring line with one of Rust/Horny on his right, then maybe they've got a point. If he needs Kessel - or Sprong to perform very close to his ceiling - then I'm not sure he's going to do enough better than Sheahan did with those tools to be worth it.

And 14 games, 146 minutes. That's a decent sized sample. Throw in training and I think there's enough to reach some conclusions. Not saying they did mind, just throwing it out there as possibilities of what happened.

It just seems like a real half-assed way to use an asset we had to pay through the teeth for. At least give the guy the building blocks for success.

People rightfully bitched about Iggy to LW back in Disco Dan's day. This is bordering on that, except if they don't figure it out it'll be a whole year of mismanagement instead of just a playoff run.

Kessel was playing with a healthy Brassard for 14 games? I think there might be some crossed lines here.

 

[Ogrezilla]

We need a better 3LW than what Simon is currently giving us. That's the biggest thing hurting Brassard other than Brassard's play itself. Well, that and playing at wing. But Rust and Horny on his RW aren't the problem.

That said, I'd love to see Rust-Brassard-Sprong. I know Sully doesn't like it, but I think it's the best option with what we've got right now.

I just wish Sprong played LW.

 

[Gurglesons]

It just seems like a real half-assed way to use an asset we had to pay through the teeth for. At least give the guy the building blocks for success.

People rightfully *****ed about Iggy to LW back in Disco Dan's day. This is bordering on that, except if they don't figure it out it'll be a whole year of mismanagement instead of just a playoff run.

Kessel was playing with a healthy Brassard for 14 games? I think there might be some crossed lines here.

I mean, if you want to have an outrageous knee jerk reaction to the situation, sure. 95% of the games Brassard has played here, he has played center.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Kessel was playing with a healthy Brassard for 14 games? I think there might be some crossed lines here.

What do you mean by crossed lines? I think Kessel just really likes playing with Geno.

 

[Tom Hanks]

We need a better 3LW than what Simon is currently giving us. That's the biggest thing hurting Brassard other than Brassard's play itself. Well, that and playing at wing. But Rust and Horny on his RW aren't the problem.

That said, I'd love to see Rust-Brassard-Sprong. I know Sully doesn't like it, but I think it's the best option with what we've got right now.

I just wish Sprong played LW.

I wouldn’t love it. Rust isn’t as good on LW. It worked in a small sample size because Kessel was on the other wing. Sprong is a huge drop off from that.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I wouldn’t love it. Rust isn’t as good on LW. It worked in a small sample size because Kessel was on the other wing. Sprong is a huge drop off from that.

He's still probably our 3rd best LW.