Salary Cap: Salary Cap+Roster Building: 'twas a great run....

[Gurglesons]

Guarantee Schultz is moved because he “drug down” the Johnson pairing.

 

[Beauner]

Nice knowing you TB...

My man just got Spoulioted:



How Jim Rutherford thinks the Penguins can get faster

He said, I think almost word-for-word, the same thing about Sprong last year haha

 

[WayneSid9987]

It were me, i stock up on cap space and assets.
You wanna get puck movers, those 2 things give you the easiest path to get them.
Obviously in a perfect world you could get an Ekholm for Phil but this world ain't perfect...
To keep the roster bloated/not flexible is just gonna make it harder when the next batch of EK, Muzzin, Montour or Jensen, etc. become available.

 

[Shady Machine]

@Mr Jiggyfly - The best thing about that entire article is that JR basically talks about the right things, but he's directly talking about the coaching and the style and then he says he likes the defense.

There's some clear stuff being said there, that the team does not need a bunch of burners, they played a faster game because of the way they functioned as a 5 man unit (something I have argued to death about how this team has veered very far away from the last 2 seasons).

JR can go get every fast player available and add them to the roster, speed isn't just skating super fast. It's about how quickly to push that puck up the other way and support it, including team defense which was just so lackluster all season and last. We were constantly getting blown the hell out of the water by teams early on. Pens, after the 2nd cup, completely lost that ability and this goes before JJ and after JJ, so a certain someone can calm his ass about that crap.

I am all for changes, I think this team needs a couple of new faces and to boot some familiar faces from last season - the **** out.

But if he's mentioning coaching, he needs to point out coaching issues. Don't grow a back bone and then wuss out.

Maybe he should look in the mirror at the ass defense he built.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The blueline really is just a colossal, and realistically insurmountable, problem. We need to replace two guys in JJ and Maatta and replace them with better fits. We have another guy in Gudbranson making $4 million to be a pretty ineffective guy against speed himself as a bottom pairing guy. We have Schultz making $5.5 million, while essentially requiring a better partner than we can give him. That's four guys who require differing degrees of attention.

That doesn't take into account the Phil or Horny situations, and the resulting issues in our top-9. In a perfect world, McCann and Rust would be flanking Bjugstad on that third line. More realistically, one of them should probably be on Geno's wing while the other is on that third line. Still need to find Geno his version of Jake either way.

Lots of work to do if this team is serious about fixing things. Lots. But it's probably all for nothing because JR doesn't see a problem with this blueline and I'm getting less certain about Phil being moved, so we're intent on letting he and Geno ruin each other at ES all year again.

I don't think it's as dire as all that.

Our biggest problem is #2 LD, and we'd be better off there if we traded both JJ and Olli, something that's probably as simple as using the return for Maatta as sweetener to move Johnson. Move Pettersson up a pairing to play with Schultz, then use Riikola with Gudbranson on the 3rd pairing. Ideally we'd add a better LHD to the rotation, but these moves alone would make us a better team with greater cap flexibility.

Beyond that, move on from Cullen and Wilson and replace them with some combo of Blueger/AJ/Palve (or if any other kids distinguish themselves), and if you can flip Kessel and/or Letang for more risk averse/younger/better fits (ie Skinner or Eberle at wing; Spurgeon or Petry on defense plus requisite pluses from the other side to even things out) and you could have a revamped and more cohesive roster for next fall.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Maybe he should look in the mirror at the ass defense he built.

I was lead to believe this was the best defense we've had under JR.

Are you telling me there is rampant fibbery afoot?

 

[Peat]

It were me, i stock up on cap space and assets.
You wanna get puck movers, those 2 things give you the easiest path to get them.
Obviously in a perfect world you could get an Ekholm for Phil but this world ain't perfect...
To keep the roster bloated/not flexible is just gonna make it harder when the next batch of EK, Muzzin, Montour or Jensen, etc. become available.

That's kinda where I am.

With a side order of "This team is pretty unlikely to do anything without two or three home run trades, so if they're not there, lets try a quick retool as we're not really sacrificing any present".

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think it's as dire as all that.

Our biggest problem is #2 LD, and we'd be better off there if we traded both JJ and Olli, something that's probably as simple as using the return for Maatta as sweetener to move Johnson. Move Pettersson up a pairing to play with Schultz, then use Riikola with Gudbranson on the 3rd pairing. Ideally we'd add a better LHD to the rotation, but these moves alone would make us a better team with greater cap flexibility.

Beyond that, move on from Cullen and Wilson and replace them with some combo of Blueger/AJ/Palve (or if any other kids distinguish themselves), and if you can flip Kessel and/or Letang for more risk averse/younger/better fits (ie Skinner or Eberle at wing; Spurgeon or Petry on defense plus requisite pluses from the other side to even things out) and you could have a revamped and more cohesive roster for next fall.

I'm not sure you can move Letang and continue to have Cup aspirations.

I'm not vehemently against moving Letang, but if we do, we're pretty much signing off on the death of chasing Cups while Sid and Geno are still significant players. I'm just not convinced that JR's got what it takes to swallow his pride and undo all of the numerous errors he's committed, and pessimistic or not, I'm kind of leaning toward thinking the window's already been slammed shut. If Letang's neck injury is going to be a significant issue for the rest of his career, it'd be wise to explore moving him before he's forced to retire or he turns into a valueless asset. We're a pretty bad team right now, barely made the playoffs, and instantly got dumpstered in the 1st round.

 

[Peat]

I'm not sure you can move Letang and continue to have Cup aspirations.

I'm not vehemently against moving Letang, but if we do, we're pretty much signing off on the death of chasing Cups while Sid and Geno are still significant players. I'm just not convinced that JR's got what it takes to swallow his pride and undo all of the numerous errors he's committed, and pessimistic or not, I'm kind of leaning toward thinking the window's already been slammed shut. If Letang's neck injury is going to be a significant issue for the rest of his career, it'd be wise to explore moving him before he's forced to retire or he turns into a valueless asset. We're a pretty bad team right now, barely made the playoffs, and instantly got dumpstered in the 1st round.

I'm a big Letang fan. I really am. He makes a huge impact on the team's results.

But we've now seen the team rally round and work arguably better for his absence twice.

And there's a solid argument that this roster has signed off on the death of chasing cups unless we can retool quickly anyway.

I'm still mostly for keeping him but I'm not as sure as I once was.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not sure you can move Letang and continue to have Cup aspirations.

I'm not vehemently against moving Letang, but if we do, we're pretty much signing off on the death of chasing Cups while Sid and Geno are still significant players. I'm just not convinced that JR's got what it takes to swallow his pride and undo all of the numerous errors he's committed, and pessimistic or not, I'm kind of leaning toward thinking the window's already been slammed shut. If Letang's neck injury is going to be a significant issue for the rest of his career, it'd be wise to explore moving him before he's forced to retire or he turns into a valueless asset. We're a pretty bad team right now, barely made the playoffs, and instantly got dumpstered in the 1st round.

Well, not if you replace him with nothing. If you replace him with a good top pairing RHD who's less risk-averse and fix the other roster problems, I think you've got at least as good a chance as if you keep Letang and his warts around.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't think it's as dire as all that.

Our biggest problem is #2 LD, and we'd be better off there if we traded both JJ and Olli, something that's probably as simple as using the return for Maatta as sweetener to move Johnson. Move Pettersson up a pairing to play with Schultz, then use Riikola with Gudbranson on the 3rd pairing. Ideally we'd add a better LHD to the rotation, but these moves alone would make us a better team with greater cap flexibility.

Beyond that, move on from Cullen and Wilson and replace them with some combo of Blueger/AJ/Palve (or if any other kids distinguish themselves), and if you can flip Kessel and/or Letang for more risk averse/younger/better fits (ie Skinner or Eberle at wing; Spurgeon or Petry on defense plus requisite pluses from the other side to even things out) and you could have a revamped and more cohesive roster for next fall.

Schultz is kind of an issue the last two years as well.

If we are going to criticize Letang for his post injury play, gotta do it to Schultz who has been downright not worth his contract and another issue is we basically have to give those soft minutes to Gudbranson now.

A fourth line of AJ - Teddy - ZAR seems fine for me.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm a big Letang fan. I really am. He makes a huge impact on the team's results.

But we've now seen the team rally round and work arguably better for his absence twice.

And there's a solid argument that this roster has signed off on the death of chasing cups unless we can retool quickly anyway.

I'm still mostly for keeping him but I'm not as sure as I once was.

I still think you keep Letang if you want to chase another Cup before Sid and Geno are over the hill. He's way too important to this team offensively, in transition, and defensively, which is where I think his true value lies.

That being said, I've no real confidence that this team is one, two or even three moves away from getting back to a strong position again. I'm pretty much open to anything aside from staying the course. If we want to go balls to the wall for another Cup before "The Decline", then you need to move JJ, Maatta and Gudbranson and find better options for two of them while playing Petts and Riikola on the bottom pairing. You need to replace Horny and Phil with younger, better fits, one of the new guys needs to be Geno's version of Jake. If you just want to sell off, I'm fine with that too. This team's going nowhere now or any time soon. Move Phil, Letang and Horny to get younger and commit to a multi-year rebuild. We've got enough young talent now that we can be a relatively strong team in a few years if we do things properly, even with Sid and Geno dramatically slowing down.

I just want JR to shift gears one way or another. Following our current trajectory is surefire deaht, with this "pushback" bull and stubbornly, almost spitefully, refusing to acknowledge that this is a young man's league now, based on speed, aggression and skill. Either fix things properly, or sell off and commit to a multi-year rebuild.

 

[Doogle]

Was watching the Golden Knights/Sharks game last night, and you know what I noticed? Besides the obvious?

Both teams emphasize speed/quick clears from their defense, and aggressive forechecking from their forwards. The Pens take absolutely forever trying to get it out of their zone, and then when they do get the puck, they can't generate any offense because they have too many players who are either incapable (Hornqvist, Wilson, ZAR) or unwilling (Geno, Phil, recent Rust) of getting to the dump ins before the other team's defense just wheels it out. I mean, it's fairly obvious when watching just our games, but comparing us to two neutral teams it's blatantly evident. And that's to me, regular fan. How GMJR and Sullivan aren't seeing this, is just mind boggling

 

[Doogle]

Oh you know what else I noticed? Erik Karlsson was on the ice for 17 of 24 goals against this series for the Sharks. But yeah, let's trade our only puck moving defenseman signed past this next year because he occasionally makes mistakes.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Well, not if you replace him with nothing. If you replace him with a good top pairing RHD who's less risk-averse and fix the other roster problems, I think you've got at least as good a chance as if you keep Letang and his warts around.

Short of us landing Karlsson, I don't think we can realistically get another franchise d-man to run the ship. Even with Karlsson, you lose a significant defensive presence in swapping the two. I think Karlsson's on another plane of existence when it comes to transition and offensive output, but again, Letang's true value to us is in his ability to bring a strong defensive presence.

Even if you bring in a Dougie Hamilton or a Jacob Trouba somehow, I don't think those guys are ready quite yet to step into Letang's role immediately. They probably will be sooner than later, especially with Gonchar and Martin working with them, but I'd way rather us somehow land them and give them 2nd pairing responsibility while they grow and develop into that franchise blueliner while being molded by our coaching staff. Give them the Aaron Rodgers treatment where he simmers while Favre plays out the last of his days with the team.

If we can get a guy of that sort of caliber, I'm way less attached to Letang. But that's not a realistic possibility, I don't think. Either you commit to fixing the blueline and getting back to 2015-16 style hockey, which means keeping Letang, or you sell everyone not named Sid, Geno, Jake, McCann and Murray off, and commit to a 3 or so year rebuild. Well, there's a third option I guess, and it's the one I think JR's going to go with, where he stays the course and ensures the slow, agonizing death of this team until we're the Kings--which happens way sooner than most people seem to think.

 

[Pancakes]

Was watching the Golden Knights/Sharks game last night, and you know what I noticed? Besides the obvious?

Both teams emphasize speed/quick clears from their defense, and aggressive forechecking from their forwards. The Pens take absolutely forever trying to get it out of their zone, and then when they do get the puck, they can't generate any offense because they have too many players who are either incapable (Hornqvist, Wilson, ZAR) or unwilling (Geno, Phil, recent Rust) of getting to the dump ins before the other team's defense just wheels it out. I mean, it's fairly obvious when watching just our games, but comparing us to two neutral teams it's blatantly evident. And that's to me, regular fan. How GMJR and Sullivan aren't seeing this, is just mind boggling

That's because half of our defense can't move the puck very well. Maatta can pass but is too slow to get it up ice quickly. Gudbranson and JJ can't pass at all and can't really skate it out either.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't think it's as dire as all that.

Our biggest problem is #2 LD, and we'd be better off there if we traded both JJ and Olli, something that's probably as simple as using the return for Maatta as sweetener to move Johnson. Move Pettersson up a pairing to play with Schultz, then use Riikola with Gudbranson on the 3rd pairing. Ideally we'd add a better LHD to the rotation, but these moves alone would make us a better team with greater cap flexibility.

Beyond that, move on from Cullen and Wilson and replace them with some combo of Blueger/AJ/Palve (or if any other kids distinguish themselves), and if you can flip Kessel and/or Letang for more risk averse/younger/better fits (ie Skinner or Eberle at wing; Spurgeon or Petry on defense plus requisite pluses from the other side to even things out) and you could have a revamped and more cohesive roster for next fall.

You need to dump Maatta and JJ PLUS find an upgrade at 2nd pair LD or move Maatta and Schultz and pray the upgrade at RD can excel with JJ as a partner. Not impossible, but pretty tough to do.

Moving Maatta, JJ, and Letang and expecting defense to be better is really wishful thinking.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh you know what else I noticed? Erik Karlsson was on the ice for 17 of 24 goals against this series for the Sharks. But yeah, let's trade our only puck moving defenseman signed past this next year because he occasionally makes mistakes.

Funny because some of us were absolutely ridiculed last summer for not wanting to pay for Karlsson and trade Letang or trade Letang straight up for EK..

 

[Gurglesons]

I’d do some form of these trades..

Maatta + Simon for Brodin.

Jack Johnson + 1st for cap space

Phil Kessel for 1st + roster LW.

Guentzel - Sid - Hornqvist
Roster LW - Malkin - Rust
McCann - Bjugstad - UFA
AJ / AHLer - Teddy - ZAR

Dumo - Letang
Brodin - Schultz
Pettersson - Gudbranson

Then target a UFA RD like Faulk, Vatanen, Brodie, etc. for trade and maybe sell off Schultz in season.

 

[Freedom]

Our blue line is most responsible for our issues of transition game from our blue line to opponents. Our play most of a nights looked like some western teams. Just throw it to offensive zone and try to chatch it. Any defensive pair but first with Letang didn't able to play game which suited to our forwards.

 

[Shady Machine]

Schultz is kind of an issue the last two years as well.

If we are going to criticize Letang for his post injury play, gotta do it to Schultz who has been downright not worth his contract and another issue is we basically have to give those soft minutes to Gudbranson now.

A fourth line of AJ - Teddy - ZAR seems fine for me.

I can agree with this to an extent. I really like Schultz but he's not been good enough to be a number 2/3 which is what he's expected to be on this defense. I still think he makes a big difference on the blueline but maybe that's because it blows to much.

 

[Gurglesons]

I can agree with this to an extent. I really like Schultz but he's not been good enough to be a number 2/3 which is what he's expected to be on this defense. I still think he makes a big difference on the blueline but maybe that's because it blows to much.

He’s solid if you’re giving him the Gudbranson minutes. The issue is JR paid him value for being a 50 pt offensive D.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

He said, I think almost word-for-word, the same thing about Sprong last year haha

He said similar things about Pouliot, hence my bad joke.

Whenever JR says a prospect will be in the lineup next season, it's a bad omen.

I'm trying to believe in him and the stuff he says, but whenever I see him speak these days I can't shake the image of Grandpa Simpson cursing at a cloud.

 

[Peat]

He’s solid if you’re giving him the Gudbranson minutes. The issue is JR paid him value for being a 50 pt offensive D.

I don't think that's a fair assessment.

There were 54 dmen getting with a cap hit within 1m of 5.5m last season. Only 4 of them hit 50 points or above. Schultz's pace of 41 points would have had him in 12th on that list, equal with Rasmus Ristolainen. I appreciate that he's heavily reliant on his points to justify his cap hit, but when you're in the top quartile for your rough paygrade in production, then I think you're providing value.

I still think you keep Letang if you want to chase another Cup before Sid and Geno are over the hill. He's way too important to this team offensively, in transition, and defensively, which is where I think his true value lies.

And yet we've looked strangely better without him at crucial points recently. I think the issue of Letang's value to us needs a deeper delve.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think that's a fair assessment.

There were 54 dmen getting with a cap hit within 1m of 5.5m last season. Only 4 of them hit 50 points or above. Schultz's pace of 41 points would have had him in 12th on that list, equal with Rasmus Ristolainen. I appreciate that he's heavily reliant on his points to justify his cap hit, but when you're in the top quartile for your rough paygrade in production, then I think you're providing value.



And yet we've looked strangely better without him at crucial points recently. I think the issue of Letang's value to us needs a deeper delve.

I don't disagree, but that's entirely on the team around Letang as opposed to Letang himself.

If your team only puts in their max effort when he's out of the lineup, or if they stop trying when he comes back because "Letang and Dumo will take care of it", well, then you need to do some serious rebuilding of your roster, because that's not a lineup you win with.