Salary Cap: Salary Cap+Roster Building: 'twas a great run....

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mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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Last thread was over 1k.

I was feeling really grateful for what the Pens have done the past few years until I heard Rutherford open his mouth.....

He says we have the best defense we've had in years? The f***, dude. I have no trust in him anymore to retool this roster. And I was someone who backed him quite a bit in years past.
 

AjaxTelamon

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Jul 8, 2011
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Last thread was over 1k.

I was feeling really grateful for what the Pens have done the past few years until I heard Rutherford open his mouth.....

He says we have the best defense we've had in years? The ****, dude. I have no trust in him anymore to retool this roster. And I was someone who backed him quite a bit in years past.

Not much else he can say, he's going to be trading at least one of them if not a few this summer. Better he trade from his best defense in years than the alternative.

I do agree with him that some guys with a couple of cups already just didn't have the hunger you need.
 

AjaxTelamon

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From the other thread:

To paraphrase, JR said that he never saw the cohesion we needed from day 1 of the season, and that some guys that already have cups might be a little too content in their careers having won those cups.

That tells me that the guys we acquired mid season are safe (Yohe expects them to all play prominent roles next year), but that the issue is with guys who have been around a while. Not sure where JJ fits in to that, but I can certainly see Maatta, Rust, and Schultz fitting that description, aside from the usual suspects like Letang and Kessel.
 
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Empoleon8771

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To paraphrase, JR said that he never saw the cohesion we needed from day 1 of the season, and that some guys that already have cups might be a little too content in their careers having won those cups.

That tells me that the guys we acquired mid season are safe (Yohe expects them to all play prominent roles next year), but that the issue is with guys who have been around a while. Not sure where JJ fits in to that, but I can certainly see Maatta, Rust, and Schultz fitting that description, aside from the usual suspects like Letang and Kessel.

Okay I was wondering if Yohe had something beyond the quotes that JR gave at the exit interview, it appears not. I'm fully expecting Maatta to be gone regardless, but I'm also growing to expect both Rust and Kessel to be moved, especially Rust.
 

Ugene Magic

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To paraphrase, JR said that he never saw the cohesion we needed from day 1 of the season, and that some guys that already have cups might be a little too content in their careers having won those cups.

That tells me that the guys we acquired mid season are safe (Yohe expects them to all play prominent roles next year), but that the issue is with guys who have been around a while. Not sure where JJ fits in to that, but I can certainly see Maatta, Rust, and Schultz fitting that description, aside from the usual suspects like Letang and Kessel.

Guys left who won those two cups.

Crosby: The face of the franchise. Nothing to do here.
Malkin: Looked at with caution
Kessel: You won't get much better bargain for what he provides
Hornqvist: has his fight and will, but it isn't like it was after the concussions
Rust: I'd give him a rebound year
Cullen: probably retires

Jake, was only here for one, I wouldn't include him.

Crosby and Malkin doing their legacy tour during those two cups, I'm not gonna say we should, but Malkin is getting older, slower, still takes dumb penalties, injured almost every season and in some playoffs. Not by his doing, but he's going to be 33 in July. He didn't look all that focused but in spurts. He's also one of the easiest to take off his game. For the most part they give Sid respect and space, but not Geno. He takes a ton of abuse. Does he want to go the distance? He is in that case of being content, I think.

Would be a sad day, but i'd understand. That window could be really close to being closed. I'd want guys who want to do it again and put that effort 1000%

Letang: You just have to go with the +/-
Dumoulin: Nothing to do here
Maatta: With all the D-men they have now, he's very much expendable
Schultz: Broken leg, I'd give him a bounceback year.


Murray: Nothing here to do


Other than that, the usual suspects should be looked at very closely beyond them.
 
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Peat

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Okay... here's all my thoughts

1) Every bit of positivity or thought of potential fixes relies on Rutherford being able to identify and bring the right guys in and Sully/the locker room being able to make them stick. Both of those things are in question. All happy thoughts are potentially rather flawed.

2) I see some murmured Tanger trade talk. For most of the season, there was a lot of talk about him and the Norris. His impact on our team performance is very easy to measure. I'm not going to say "Never" on an ageing injury prone guy, but that's a tough sell to lose if you're asking me.

3) Its funny how Tanger has that big impact but the team can survive his absence with everyone in superman mode, but Schultz's impact often seems minimal yet the team goes apart without him. I'm not going to say "Never" on a guy like Schultz with only a year left but if he goes he needs to be replaced like-for-like.

4) Those two and Dumo/Pettersson should be the core of our defence. I wish we could purge everything else (although people will miss Maatta once he's gone). We won't, but I still wish we could.

5) If Rutherford goes ahead and trades Rust, a guy who both Sully and Sid clearly like a lot and who fits the team a lot in so many different potential roles, he'd better win that trade or...

6) ... be looking to remove the complainer that he can. In fact, Rutherford needs to think super hard about whether his aims and Sully's are still compatible, because if they're not he needs to be ruthless. I'd rather have evidence that the org are being ruthless with Rutherford, but if they're not, then commit to him.

7) The aim should be to have a coherent clear strategy and team vision. Sacrifice talent if needs be. We've just had an object lesson in which one works better.

8) Everyone complaining about Simon/ZAR needs to look at the maths of the situation. Lose them and they'll be replaced by players on the same cap hit. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea either has a recklessly high opinion of Adam Johnson and Sam Miletic, or they a strange interest in guys like Derek Grant.

edit: 9) I struggle to fathom the amount of people who still think Rutherford is doing PR talk. Given the amount of things that he really didn't need to, or shouldn't have, said this year, it's just a really bad read on who he is as a human being to ascribe this to PR talk. Maybe you'd do it, but he's not so much about it.

He likes that defence. If you want to have optimistic happy thoughts, then remember that Rutherford changes his mind so often and likes to gamble so much that being a piece he likes means very little to life expectancy.
 
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Ugene Magic

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Problem is... JR usually tells the truth so these comments are what he actually thinks.

Yikes.

Yes, but there's way too much time to allow for changes in heart. Plus, Ownership could get involved if they feel differently. They had a perch up high to see everything.
 

3074326

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If he thinks that was the best defense we have had in years, someone else needs to take the helm because he clearly didn't watch. That is such a stupid comment that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Like.. we won two cups only 2 and 3 years ago. This team was NOWHERE NEAR THAT.

Hopefully the changes start at the top....
 

Ugene Magic

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Oct 17, 2008
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Okay... here's all my thoughts

1) Every bit of positivity or thought of potential fixes relies on Rutherford being able to identify and bring the right guys in and Sully/the locker room being able to make them stick. Both of those things are in question. All happy thoughts are potentially rather flawed.

2) I see some murmured Tanger trade talk. For most of the season, there was a lot of talk about him and the Norris. His impact on our team performance is very easy to measure. I'm not going to say "Never" on an ageing injury prone guy, but that's a tough sell to lose if you're asking me.

3) Its funny how Tanger has that big impact but the team can survive his absence with everyone in superman mode, but Schultz's impact often seems minimal yet the team goes apart without him. I'm not going to say "Never" on a guy like Schultz with only a year left but if he goes he needs to be replaced like-for-like.

4) Those two and Dumo/Pettersson should be the core of our defence. I wish we could purge everything else (although people will miss Maatta once he's gone). We won't, but I still wish we could.

5) If Rutherford goes ahead and trades Rust, a guy who both Sully and Sid clearly like a lot and who fits the team a lot in so many different potential roles, he'd better win that trade or...

6) ... be looking to remove the complainer that he can. In fact, Rutherford needs to think super hard about whether his aims and Sully's are still compatible, because if they're not he needs to be ruthless. I'd rather have evidence that the org are being ruthless with Rutherford, but if they're not, then commit to him.

7) The aim should be to have a coherent clear strategy and team vision. Sacrifice talent if needs be. We've just had an object lesson in which one works better.

8) Everyone complaining about Simon/ZAR needs to look at the maths of the situation. Lose them and they'll be replaced by players on the same cap hit. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea either has a recklessly high opinion of Adam Johnson and Sam Miletic, or they a strange interest in guys like Derek Grant.

edit: 9) I struggle to fathom the amount of people who still think Rutherford is doing PR talk. Given the amount of things that he really didn't need to, or shouldn't have, said this year, it's just a really bad read on who he is as a human being to ascribe this to PR talk. Maybe you'd do it, but he's not so much about it.

He likes that defence. If you want to have optimistic happy thoughts, then remember that Rutherford changes his mind so often and likes to gamble so much that being a piece he likes means very little to life expectancy.

I'm with you until #8. You have to remember if they send guys out there will be guys also coming in. Those guys who have speed only enhances their final output because those guys not only have speed, but they have high hockey IQ's.

They were a 500 team leading up to the playoffs and everyone who was injured came back and the team changed and became a -0- team.

Rust or whatever, that's the reality of it.
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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If he thinks that was the best defense we have had in years, someone else needs to take the helm because he clearly didn't watch. That is such a stupid comment that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Like.. we won two cups only 2 and 3 years ago. This team was NOWHERE NEAR THAT.

Hopefully the changes start at the top....

Best defense that has "balanced pairings". Old man snuck that one in on you.
 

ColePens

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Mar 27, 2008
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I think @Pancakes and I (a few others too) are maaaaad Horny fans but if Sid refuses to play with him and they won't use him on PP1, then what's the point of that contract? Sid and Jake dominated the playoffs last year with 72 on their line and they won't even play with him? Like get the f*** out of here.

Tampa should be calling us for him because he's EXACTLY what they need.
 

Empoleon8771

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I think @Pancakes and I (a few others too) are maaaaad Horny fans but if Sid refuses to play with him and they won't use him on PP1, then what's the point of that contract? Sid and Jake dominated the playoffs last year with 72 on their line and they won't even play with him? Like get the **** out of here.

Tampa should be calling us for him because he's EXACTLY what they need.

I was going to respond to this with "but what are you getting back for Hornqvist?", but you mentioning Tampa Bay....how about Miller for Hornqvist? It's an interesting thought IMO.
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
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I was going to respond to this with "but what are you getting back for Hornqvist?", but you mentioning Tampa Bay....how about Miller for Hornqvist? It's an interesting thought IMO.

I obviously want my spirit animal Horny to be on the team and used. But I'm just saying if they aren't going to use him properly, that contract was pointless.

What about Cally (for money purposes) + Sergachev for Horny/Maatta. Oh... laughable pipe dream? Nevermind. I just want my spirit animal to be used.
 
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Jules Winnfield

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Problem is... JR usually tells the truth so these comments are what he actually thinks.

Yikes.

Normally I agree with you on this statement re: JR but this is obviously poker playing. What’s JR going to say? The defense sucked? Half of the defense can’t skate? Half of the defense has an IQ lower than farm animals?

JR knows he has surgery to do on this team. He’s not going to sell himself short and let everyone know he has a bunch of terrible players he’s trying to dump and lower the return he’s going to get.

They know they need to make “major” changes. There will be multiple people moved including at least one big named player.

The draft will be an interesting time this year. I’d tune in.
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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I obviously want my spirit animal Horny to be on the team and used. But I'm just saying if they aren't going to use him properly, that contract was pointless.

What about Cally (for money purposes) + Sergachev for Horny/Maatta. Oh... laughable pipe dream? Nevermind. I just want my spirit animal to be used.

I'd pull a Joe Sakic in any potential PH discussions. Have deals close to done and then be like, "nah i'm gonna keep him for now". It'd be really tough for me to trade him short of something that helps fast forward a retool.
 
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ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
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Normally I agree with you on this statement re: JR but this is obviously poker playing. What’s JR going to say? The defense sucked? Half of the defense can’t skate? Half of the defense has an IQ lower than farm animals?

JR knows he has surgery to do on this team. He’s not going to sell himself short and let everyone know he has a bunch of terrible players he’s trying to dump and lower the return he’s going to get.

They know they need to make “major” changes. There will be multiple people moved including at least one big named player.

The draft will be an interesting time this year. I’d tune in.

He still has this desire to play fast while getting bigger and it showed that if you can't do it. You can't be both. You have to choose one route and build to it. So unless this guy talks about speed and getting faster, I don't really care what they do.

I don't want sexy names in a trade that look good on paper. I want to get younger/faster. Isles had Kuhn in their top 6 and a bunch of players willing to play the style over worrying about who has a name. I want to get to that. Build around McCann/Guentzel and our normal stars. Get back to speed/tenacity.

But I have zero faith in JR seeing it that way.
 

Jules Winnfield

Fleurymanbad
Mar 19, 2010
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He still has this desire to play fast while getting bigger and it showed that if you can't do it. You can't be both. You have to choose one route and build to it. So unless this guy talks about speed and getting faster, I don't really care what they do.

I don't want sexy names in a trade that look good on paper. I want to get younger/faster. Isles had Kuhn in their top 6 and a bunch of players willing to play the style over worrying about who has a name. I want to get to that. Build around McCann/Guentzel and our normal stars. Get back to speed/tenacity.

But I have zero faith in JR seeing it that way.

There are other issues he needs to address other than looking at acquiring big names or anything like that. The talent on the team wasn’t an issue. There were other factors going on behind the scenes he was alluding to about them not playing as a team that he’s going to address and send a message with. Previous Pens teams would’ve skated through a wall for each other. Not this one.
 
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Honour Over Glory

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Jan 30, 2012
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Okay I was wondering if Yohe had something beyond the quotes that JR gave at the exit interview, it appears not. I'm fully expecting Maatta to be gone regardless, but I'm also growing to expect both Rust and Kessel to be moved, especially Rust.
Yohe is the worst. Him and Mackey. They have this clear coach bias and will throw the entire team under the bus. I wish we had a ruthlessly honest writer that covers the Pens.

The system is shit and all they talk about is oh we need a change. We have top 6 wingers that a coach refuses to use in the top 6 and neither of those idiots want to touch that topic. Just that they're likely gonna get moved.

Talk about why.
 

Ugene Magic

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I still think they can change on the fly here.

They took some huge steps forward in Bjugstad, McCann, Pettersson and adding Blueger, hopefully Johnson to the fold next year, and they are just a couple moves to improve themselves down to an adjustment depth move at the TDL next season.

It's not all doom and gloom, and just hope the process works to their favor.
 

Rusty Razor

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One of those Daley for Scuderi or Victor Risk for Nino trades would be really nice this summer.
 

cygnus47

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At this point I think Kessel is a goner for sure.

That was my first thought.

If JR is really happy with our D, and if he's going to do what I think he's going to do, that will be the end of our cup window. Please have someone talk some sense into him, we still have all the hardest to get pieces, it's not impossible to turn this around.
 
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