Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | The Faster We Go the Rounder We Get

[Shady Machine]

You wouldn't sign him for 10-11 per year and trade cap away as needed if you had the opportunity?

How would I do that? Kessel and Hagelin probably gets you close, but does Tavares want to be 3rd fiddle when he should be face of a franchise?

It's just not realistic.

 

[Shady Machine]

Sprong has the potential to win a rocket trophy

Potential or likelihood? Sprong has a sweet shot, but there are a lot of talented goal scorers out there. I would bet against Sprong winning a rocket.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If he's not that much better, why are we talking so much about a player whose asking price is allegedly over even that?

I mean - okay, yeah, I know the reason why, he's the player people want and people are interested in talking about how much they value him and where the trading red lines for him are.

But in terms of being a realistic target? This is Duchene all over again. And yeah, Rutherford was always interested. But never able/willing to meet the price after it got raised to ridiculous. Pageau's asking price is just as ridiculous right now. He's only realistic if Ottawa drop their price and how likely is that after they provided a prime example of how holding onto an asset works.

Agreed that the Leafs are unlikely to deal with us for Bozak.

I think he’s a fair amount better than most other options being offered here, and being cost-controlled for 2 more years adds a lot of value. Enough that I’d part with Sprong for the quality and cost certainty he brings.

Kessel is 62nd at ES points and 127th at p/60 (there's stupidities with the way both data sets are presented so adjust lower and higher respectively) - no need to exaggerate what Kessel offers at ES to make Sheahan look bad.

Plus you can look at JGP's numbers from when the Sens were doing well and see roughly the same player that was there to begin with. I like the argument for JGP (if available, which he probably realistically isn't) but it doesn't look good with numbers.

Plus plus... if we're talking struggling team, then how are the Pens this season not a struggler at ES?

Point taken haha. But I will say I think Kessel has a lot more to give us at ES than he’s been able to show with our 3Cs, and Pageau provides a lot of what Kessel could use.

 

[Ryder71]

I think the best thing about getting Pageau is the stability at 3C it would afford us over the next few seasons. He's good on face offs, fast, a righty, good in the playoffs and cost controlled. There will always be questions about chemistry until he would actually play here, but most of the alternatives aren't very appetizing IMO. We'll probably have to give up at least one of Sprong and or a 1st to get him, and while that price is ridiculously high, we might not have a better option for this season.

And I don't subscribe to the notion of just trying to patch work your way through this post season and try and make a big splash in free agency in the summer. There are no guarantees on that front either. Going for a threepeat is an uphill battle in and of itself. However you want to give your team every possible tool to at least have a shot. On paper anyhow Pageau would go a long way in that regard. If better options arise, great, but if not I think you got to pay the price.

 

[Nakawick]

Potential or likelihood? Sprong has a sweet shot, but there are a lot of talented goal scorers out there. I would bet against Sprong winning a rocket.

Potential of course. He could come out of the gates like Boeser in the next year or two.

 

[Riptide]

The thing is, I don't want the Ryan's of the world, although he may be someone worth considering. Pleks I have no interest in other than a rental trial run.

My expectations might be higher than yours, and less realistic, but that's the world JR set up when he moved on from Bones. He set higher expectations. If he's going to meet those, it likely means trading someone we don't want to trade. I'm not sold on JGP as that higher option, but he's better than most thrown around here and the cost certainty at 3.1MM is a pretty nice thing to have. I'd obviously prefer someone even better.

The kid is on pace for 45 points - most of which at ES (35). How is that "the Ryan's of the world" when looking at Pageau and his 27pt pace? Dig deeper into JGP's numbers... even that 43pt season - despite playing with Stone, didn't come with an increase in ES production (or even PP production) - it came with 7/8 short handed goals - something he's never done previously or since (and something few players do in any given year).

And what's Pageau's contract 2 years from now? Is he even here? Now weigh that against what we gave up to get him for 2.5 seasons. I'll happily overpay someone in FA and use Sprong cheap cap hit to make up the difference on the roster. That way A) we likely have a 3C for longer then 2 seasons and B) even if we don't, we still have Sprong and likely still have our 1st in this draft.

 

[Riptide]

See, this is where I disagree with you. I think years of control is a huge factor here, Shore has 4 RFA years left after this year, which is really significant. I also think Sprong for Pageau is more likely a loss in the long run than Sprong for Shore, to be honest. Pageau is more of a sure thing, but I also can't imagine Shore will be any worse than Pageau. Shore is also cheaper, which means the Penguins wouldn't have to subtract anyone off their roster to get him.

I view Sprong for Shore to be similar to Sprong for Jankowski that was suggested by some (including me) during the offseason. I'd prefer to do that over trading Sprong for a guy who has probably peaked already. Jankowski has been solid for the Flames this year, so that just further makes me think something like that should be the target if Sprong is being moved.

I don't want to trade Sprong for any of them. But that said, I think there's more upside to Shore then there is JGP.

 

[Riptide]

I proposed Sprong for Shore on the main boards and Dallas fans seem to love it. I'm actually really surprised to see this, Shore seems like a really good player and I'm not sure why they're that willing to give him up. From their descriptions, he sounds like a younger and faster Bonino.

Doesn't surprise me in the least. They have a bunch of young centers (Dickinson, Shore, Janmark, Faksa, Smith) and that's on top of having their top guys locked up for the next few seasons.

That said I still don't think I'd move Sprong for Shore. Our 1st? Sure. If we're going to take a gamble, we might as well use that to do it. Same with Sheary. But Sprong? Yeah hard pass. Find another target if that's the case.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Honestly, the more I talk about other centers, the less and less I'm interested in Pageau. If the Penguins have to make an offer that gives Ottawa an incentive to trade Pageau, I'm looking elsewhere. I started realizing that he's not even remotely worth the packages that are being offered in here, so if Ottawa wants something of that level, I'd tell them to go find that somewhere else.

 

[ColePens]

You know how you get a free pass no matter what? You produce. And you never stop producing. Doesn't matter if it's 5 on 5 or only on the PP. Phil Kessel produces. And he's a playoff warrior. His fancy stats can look like anything. Phil Kessel is the man.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I wonder how burned that bridge is with him requesting a trade? Though with him being in the AHL he might be willing. I just hope JR doesnt overpay or decide to not bring in someone else.

I think it was a fit thing and I am sure he knew he wasn't going to bump Bones or Cullen just so he can play C, but I know Sullivan would start benching him for no reason in favor of Rowney at times and that behavior went unnoticed by most if not all of us until just recently when we see that same crap with Cole.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Honestly, the more I talk about other centers, the less and less I'm interested in Pageau. If the Penguins have to make an offer that gives Ottawa an incentive to trade Pageau, I'm looking elsewhere. I started realizing that he's not even remotely worth the packages that are being offered in here, so if Ottawa wants something of that level, I'd tell them to go find that somewhere else.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I realized this when I was arguing with someone about Sprong for Shore straight up, I asked "why is Sprong for Shore horrible when Sprong and a 2nd for Pageau is fine?". Then I actually looked into Pageau's stats and realized he's only marginally better than Shore, which made me lose any interest in giving up that extreme package for Pageau. So like I said, if they want Sprong and a 2nd for Pageau, go look elsewhere.

Honestly, I was starting to think this when I started looking into guys like Shaw and Danault, but this Shore discussion really hammered it in. The Penguins could probably get an extremely comparable center to Pageau for either 2 2nds or a late 1st straight up, so why move Sprong for that? That's also ignoring there are lesser options available, too.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Honestly, I am curious to try Dea with Guentzel and Kessel and see how that works, stylistically, he's quick and would work better with those two and Sheahan would work better with Kuhnhackl and Rust, it'd allow all 4 lines to be played more rather than 3 lines and the 4th line sort of getting minutes.

 

[vikingGoalie]

You know how you get a free pass no matter what? You produce. And you never stop producing. Doesn't matter if it's 5 on 5 or only on the PP. Phil Kessel produces. And he's a playoff warrior. His fancy stats can look like anything. Phil Kessel is the man.

quoted for truth

 

[WayneSid9987]

At the moment Pageau's a guy i'm willing to spend a little to get. Wouldn't include Sprong tho. So talking maybe Sheary straight up(unlikely cuz i believe OTT's looking to dump $) or a 1st plus nothing of significance.
If OTT balks, i easily move on to the Granlund's, Plekanec's, Letestu's, etc. for this potential run.
OTT really doesn't have to move anyone atm until they get the package/stuff they want unless they need to unload $ immediately for their bottom line.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

At the moment Pageau's a guy i'm willing to spend a little to get. Wouldn't include Sprong tho. So talking maybe Sheary straight up(unlikely cuz i believe OTT's looking to dump $) or a 1st plus nothing of significance.
If OTT balks, i easily move on to the Granlund's, Plekanec's, Letestu's, etc. for this potential run.
OTT really doesn't have to move anyone atm until they get the package/stuff they want unless they need to unload $ immediately for their bottom line.

I know Ottawa is going to ask high for Pageau, they don't NEED to move him, so why would they do it for a "fair" trade, it's a "oh you want him, you'll need to make it worth my while" type of situation and we don't want to see this team get in on that sort of crap.

Plekanec is the guy I would go after, this is for a playoff run, out of all of those guys, Plekanec can produce in the playoffs and has a better track record of it. He's also a guy that will have more of an incentive to give it his all knowing he won't get a chance like this again.

I think Plekanec would also be a good fit with Jake & Kessel, he's a very good playmaker that has been a part of the titanic for 2yrs and his numbers have reflected that sinking ship.

 

[BlackAndGold87]

I'd be fine with trading a 2nd for Granlund but would Vancouver do it?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'd be fine with trading a 2nd for Granlund but would Vancouver do it?

Why would we do it?

He sure as shit isn't the guy I get to play on the 3C, he's 4C material and yeah last year seems more like a fluke than him breaking out.

Edit: I should add that his skating is about on par with Bonino's, the guy gets 41% OZ starts, isn't that great defensively, an ok playmaker, but at best, he's not even close to being half as good as Sheahan is at being a C. Oh and you know, he's f***ing god awful at faceoffs. 7pts ES, lol, Granlund is terrible.

I've seen him play enough living here, the guy is so average. I wouldn't give a 2nd for him, I would probably give them their 4th back for him if we were that desperate.

We are not that desperate.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I know Ottawa is going to ask high for Pageau, they don't NEED to move him, so why would they do it for a "fair" trade, it's a "oh you want him, you'll need to make it worth my while" type of situation and we don't want to see this team get in on that sort of crap.

Plekanec is the guy I would go after, this is for a playoff run, out of all of those guys, Plekanec can produce in the playoffs and has a better track record of it. He's also a guy that will have more of an incentive to give it his all knowing he won't get a chance like this again.

I tend to agree atm.
But like i said, if you could get Pageau for a later 1st plus nothing of significance, i'd probably do it. I'd probably need to see how the next 3 weeks or so go tho and sorta predict where that 1st is gonna be located.

 

[Peat]

I think he’s a fair amount better than most other options being offered here, and being cost-controlled for 2 more years adds a lot of value. Enough that I’d part with Sprong for the quality and cost certainty he brings.



Point taken haha. But I will say I think Kessel has a lot more to give us at ES than he’s been able to show with our 3Cs, and Pageau provides a lot of what Kessel could use.

Oh absolutely. Kessel has 2.00 or so for p/60. Last I worked it out, it was about 1.50 with Sheahan and Guentzel. If you could get Kessel at 2.00 from the 3rd line in the play-offs, that would be a giant advantage. I'm not sure Pageau is the guy, but since I think Rust would be the guy to put with Kessel to improve things with what we've got and Pageau's game has some similarities, sounds good... just I don't think he's available.

I'd also be a lot, lot happier if his deal was like Danault's and we could extend him for a long time. Maybe I'm being greedy but I don't like two.

You know how you get a free pass no matter what? You produce. And you never stop producing. Doesn't matter if it's 5 on 5 or only on the PP. Phil Kessel produces. And he's a playoff warrior. His fancy stats can look like anything. Phil Kessel is the man.

There was zero shade intended at Kessel with my post. He's been the star of our season and I look forwards to admitting how wrong I was to even toy with trade talk at the end of the season.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I tend to agree atm.
But like i said, if you could get Pageau for a later 1st plus nothing of significance, i'd probably do it. I'd probably need to see how the next 3 weeks or so go tho and sorta predict where that 1st is gonna be located.

We would never get Pageau for that (nor do I personally care to anyway). Ottawa won't move a guy that fits on their team and allows them to wait on their kids to get ready for NHL duty for a deal like that. It just won't happen for a late 1st and some meh prospect we are ok losing.

 

[WayneSid9987]

On Granlund, he's an offensive center that is forced into heavy DZ starts due to injuries it looks like this season.
He's getting 61.1% DZ starts 5on5 and 58.4% in all situations. All while being not very good at FO's.
Compare that to last season where he got more OZ starts and produced more.

You could acquire him and lean on Sheahan+Sid+Geno for your DZ starts and play him more like he was used last season. He's certainly not gonna fix the "we need another Cullen or good Bonino or Sheahan type 2-way guy" problem but he'll fix the "we need more scoring out of the 3C position" quandry.

Preferably you go for the more 2-way guy but theres not alot out there behind spending a premium for Pageau or Pleks atm.

So if Pageau is a no go. I go for Pleks, if you don't get him then its a toss up between Granlund or Letestu. Letestu can be leaned on to win draws more but Granlund will produce more 5on5 with more heavily slanted OZ starts. Thats just if it's between those 3.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

On Granlund, he's an offensive center that is forced into heavy DZ starts due to injuries it looks like this season.
He's getting 61.1% DZ starts 5on5 and 58.4% in all situations. All while being not very good at FO's.
Compare that to last season where he got more OZ starts and produced more.

You could acquire him and lean on Sheahan+Sid+Geno for your DZ starts and play him more like he was used last season. He's certainly not gonna fix the "we need another Cullen or good Bonino or Sheahan type 2-way guy" problem but he'll fix the "we need more scoring out of the 3C position" quandry.

Preferably you go for the more 2-way guy but theres not alot out there behind spending a premium for Pageau or Pleks atm.

I don't think Pleks would cost a premium at all, I think at this point Bergevin would be looking to get picks for him at best. Pageau is going to cost a lot more because the Sens don't really need to move him nor do they want to. In the case for Granlund, the guy was 39% at faceoffs last year, he's 40% now. He would literally be the worst faceoff man on this team.

Granlund is also playing RW on the 3rd line now.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I don't think Pleks would cost a premium at all, I think at this point Bergevin would be looking to get picks for him at best. Pageau is going to cost a lot more because the Sens don't really need to move him nor do they want to. In the case for Granlund, the guy was 39% at faceoffs last year, he's 40% now. He would literally be the worst faceoff man on this team.

Granlund is also playing RW on the 3rd line now.

"That should've read "Pleks or a premium for Pageau."
You're right on Granlund but he'd be no different than a Spooner type acquisition.