Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

[Tom Hanks]

Yet we've been in for Hamilton, Montour, Muzzin, maybe Martinez, maybe Piet, McDonagh last year...

... I think its pretty clear that while Rutherford likes Schultz and Maatta, he doesn't look at them and think "You make my top 4 unstoppable". And at those cap hits, you can get players who do that. Really hard to get them in trade, but it looks like Rutherford isn't going to stop until he gets that upgrade. And he'll grab it when it's on and tidy up after the play offs (assuming he doesn't want to keep rolling with three high calibre PMDs, which is how we won our cups after all)

Upgrading a D man is fine but I was responding to using Kessel for the Hamilton trade which doesn’t seem very realistic or a smart choice. Kessel for those other guys are in the same boat too.

Seems like your underrating Phil if your saying 3 high calibre PMD’s is how we won our cups Letang was injured for one and Daley part of one (the 2nd year he was good but not high calibre). Schultz wasn’t high calibre in the first cup if those are the 3 you’re talking about. It’s a team game but our forwards are the main weapon (and great goaltending ).

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

No thank you to Hamilton.

Ferland....yes please.

Couldn't agree more here
I just don't think the need for Hamilton here is needed that much with Schultz on his way back
Ferland I think would be a solid addition

 

[Tom Hanks]

True about the M-NTC and we'll see how that goes - although the most recent time the Kessel rumours were running, it didn't sound like he'd set it as restrictively.

And true about the numbers, but I don't think that conflicts with what I said at all.

I’ve heard him linked to 2 teams. Arizona but he loved Tocchet so he’d waive and Vegas who are probably part of the 8 and if not is probably a place he’d be happy to waive.

It doesn’t conflict but it sounds dismissive of what Phil does not sure if that’s how you meant it. Over the years (recent history) we really haven’t had a winger quite perform to his level as consistently as Phil both at ES and the PP. It hasn’t been easy for us in that regard.

 

[Peat]

Upgrading a D man is fine but I was responding to using Kessel for the Hamilton trade which doesn’t seem very realistic or a smart choice. Kessel for those other guys are in the same boat too.

Seems like your underrating Phil if your saying 3 high calibre PMD’s is how we won our cups Letang was injured for one and Daley part of one (the 2nd year he was good but not high calibre). Schultz wasn’t high calibre in the first cup if those are the 3 you’re talking about. It’s a team game but our forwards are the main weapon (and great goaltending ).

I can't see Kessel for Hamilton, no. Relaxing the NTC is one thing but going to Carolina to play non-playoff hockey forever doesn't sound like Phil's idea of a good time. And I wasn't meaning to frame my comments on Phil in light of "Lets trade him for a dman" - not unless you're trading dmen for forwards at the same time, at which point this is beginning to feel like a lot of surgery at a delicate time.

As for the 3 PMD thing - valid points, but the forwards have an uphill struggle if they can't get the puck in a quick and timely function. That's where the PMDs come in. Our main weapon isn't our forwards, its our team offence, and that needs PMDs.

Now, yes, we had injuries to PMDs... which is why having 3 on the roster was important, because it meant one injury took us down to 2 (which we can work with) instead of 1 (something we've struggled a lot with). My point was more about whether we needed Hamilton if we had Schultz - I totally see that as something we could make work and want, albeit that's an incredible level of overkill and cap taken up.

Also - high calibre - even with Daley's struggles and Schultz's inability to defend in his first season here, I'd still say they were high calibre at moving the puck quickly to the forwards and supporting the attack. Not high calibre dmen, but high calibre at moving the puck.

I hope that made sense because reading it back reads rather convoluted to me

I’ve heard him linked to 2 teams. Arizona but he loved Tocchet so he’d waive and Vegas who are probably part of the 8 and if not is probably a place he’d be happy to waive.

It doesn’t conflict but it sounds dismissive of what Phil does not sure if that’s how you meant it. Over the years (recent history) we really haven’t had a winger quite perform to his level as consistently as Phil both at ES and the PP. It hasn’t been easy for us in that regard.

In what time period are we talking here for the links?

And... maybe it is dismissive. Its not meant to be but maybe it is. I think that Kessel's consistency of production is very good. But I don't think it's good enough to stop looking at his cap hit and the rest of his 5v5 play and wonder whether its worth it, and for how much longer it will be so. So maybe I'm being dismissive in the overall weighting I give it; certainly I find myself increasingly skeptical of how much importance most people put on individual production.

Of course, the Power Play is a different kettle of fish. His production there is ridiculous and our team production with him is ridiculous.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I can't see Kessel for Hamilton, no. Relaxing the NTC is one thing but going to Carolina to play non-playoff hockey forever doesn't sound like Phil's idea of a good time. And I wasn't meaning to frame my comments on Phil in light of "Lets trade him for a dman" - not unless you're trading dmen for forwards at the same time, at which point this is beginning to feel like a lot of surgery at a delicate time.

As for the 3 PMD thing - valid points, but the forwards have an uphill struggle if they can't get the puck in a quick and timely function. That's where the PMDs come in. Our main weapon isn't our forwards, its our team offence, and that needs PMDs.

Now, yes, we had injuries to PMDs... which is why having 3 on the roster was important, because it meant one injury took us down to 2 (which we can work with) instead of 1 (something we've struggled a lot with). My point was more about whether we needed Hamilton if we had Schultz - I totally see that as something we could make work and want, albeit that's an incredible level of overkill and cap taken up.

Also - high calibre - even with Daley's struggles and Schultz's inability to defend in his first season here, I'd still say they were high calibre at moving the puck quickly to the forwards and supporting the attack. Not high calibre dmen, but high calibre at moving the puck.

I hope that made sense because reading it back reads rather convoluted to me



In what time period are we talking here for the links?

And... maybe it is dismissive. Its not meant to be but maybe it is. I think that Kessel's consistency of production is very good. But I don't think it's good enough to stop looking at his cap hit and the rest of his 5v5 play and wonder whether its worth it, and for how much longer it will be so. So maybe I'm being dismissive in the overall weighting I give it; certainly I find myself increasingly skeptical of how much importance most people put on individual production.

Of course, the Power Play is a different kettle of fish. His production there is ridiculous and our team production with him is ridiculous.

Those are fair points. Time period for trade links are just recently as in the last off season. Possibly into last season for Vegas but my memory is fuzzy on that one.

 

[Peat]

Those are fair points. Time period for trade links are just recently as in the last off season. Possibly into last season for Vegas but my memory is fuzzy on that one.

The Vegas one was very recent; or at least the most recent one, and the reason this one resurfaced.

He was also linked to the Kings and Habs last season. But - crucially - while no specific names were given, it was generally said that Kessel would be less against a trade out of Pittsburgh than Toronto. I don't think trading him would be easy, but I don't think its 8 teams set up with malice aforethought hard either.

 

[Tom Hanks]

The Vegas one was very recent; or at least the most recent one, and the reason this one resurfaced.

He was also linked to the Kings and Habs last season. But - crucially - while no specific names were given, it was generally said that Kessel would be less against a trade out of Pittsburgh than Toronto. I don't think trading him would be easy, but I don't think its 8 teams set up with malice aforethought hard either.

Forgot about Nashville too. That one came up twice. Once in the off season (I think draft day) and again in November. That’s the one that was for a D man (Ellis I think)

I’d heard Kessel would be willing to move even if they were on his list if it worked for him obviously

 

[ChaosAgent]

Of course, the Power Play is a different kettle of fish. His production there is ridiculous and our team production with him is ridiculous.

I mean, there's also Crosby and Malkin. When you look at the actual rankings the PP isn't that much more effective than it was in the Bylsma years.

PP% Rankings by Year
2012: 5th
2013: 2nd
2014: 1st
2015 (Johnston): 10th
2016 (coaching change + Kessel): 17th
2017: 3rd
2018: 1st
2019: 6th

So I mean, 3rd-1st-6th is nice but that isn't any better than 2012-2014.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I’ve heard him linked to 2 teams. Arizona but he loved Tocchet so he’d waive and Vegas who are probably part of the 8 and if not is probably a place he’d be happy to waive.

It doesn’t conflict but it sounds dismissive of what Phil does not sure if that’s how you meant it. Over the years (recent history) we really haven’t had a winger quite perform to his level as consistently as Phil both at ES and the PP. It hasn’t been easy for us in that regard.

My point was more he's probably more available than people here believe. JR just isn't gonna sell him the TOR route for futures obviously. Wants a bonafide player(ie. Stone) or a package of 2 really good players.
And on the flip side, the teams he's dealing with probably don't wanna pay JR's price atm.

BUT i do look at who could use him atm combined with the places he'd most likely say ok too and the options are much more plentiful than say last season.
Not saying he's gonna move(JR will want great value) but i do believe he's being pitched. Theres just more potential places this season where he could land given his NT/NMC's so he's probably being discussed on the phones more than people think.

The Vegas one was very recent; or at least the most recent one, and the reason this one resurfaced.

He was also linked to the Kings and Habs last season. But - crucially - while no specific names were given, it was generally said that Kessel would be less against a trade out of Pittsburgh than Toronto. I don't think trading him would be easy, but I don't think its 8 teams set up with malice aforethought hard either.

Actually trading Phil would be easy.
Getting the value you want(it'd be high) to beef up a contending roster would be the not easy part.

 

[Peat]

Actually trading Phil would be easy.
Getting the value you want(it'd be high) to beef up a contending roster would be the not easy part.

10/10 for pedantry - I approve

 

[ChaosAgent]

Actually trading Phil would be easy.
Getting the value you want(it'd be high) to beef up a contending roster would be the not easy part.

Maybe this is where a 3-team trade makes sense. Present impact player to Pens, Kessel to other contender, Futures to a 3rd team.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Still think they want one more run at the cup with Kessel but damn he killed us on the PP in the playoffs last year. Really could have been the difference in that Caps series(I know we had other issues).

Hopefully he is healthy this time..or whatever the hell hapened with him. Obviously wasnt the same player.

If we are to make another trade...Brassard is the one Id keep an eye on going forward. Him for another pending UFA if he still doesnt find a way to fit in here. Thats all Id think we need if Schultz can come back and play at a high level.

 

[Riptide]

And if Olli is safe as can be, all of that points to the Phil being pretty damn available for me.

I think Maatta is only safe in regards to whom Rutherford is looking at. If it's a F, then he's safe. However if it's a D, that removes most of the issues that trading Maatta would come with.

 

[Gurglesons]

The thing with Hamilton is he is 25 and a solid top pairing D. He’s been regulated to the third pairing on Carolina, but that D is absolutely stacked.

Schultz is going to walk after next year. Trading for Hamilton solidifies our top four on the right side for Sid and Geno’s career and provides a player that brings a level of offense comparable to Letang which will help reduce Letang’s minutes as he inevitably declines.

 

[sauce66871]

Kind of far fetched, but looking back when Phil was traded to the Pens, and the 8 teams he would accept a trade to, wasn't it speculated that Chicago was on his list?

It wouldn't save much cap space, but I would see it as a win-win with a package that starts with Kessel for Saad. In my wildest dreams it would include DeBrincat/Boqvist, but whatever.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Kind of far fetched, but looking back when Phil was traded to the Pens, and the 8 teams he would accept a trade to, wasn't it speculated that Chicago was on his list?

It wouldn't save much cap space, but I would see it as a win-win with a package that starts with Kessel for Saad. In my wildest dreams it would include DeBrincat/Boqvist, but whatever.

Something they will do in the offseason since they will be getting a top pick. If they move into the top 3...or even land Huges/Kappo I can see them trading for a player to compete for it all next year. Kane/Toews arent getting any younger...they wont settle for anymore seasons at the bottom of the standings.

 

[Tom Hanks]

The thing with Hamilton is he is 25 and a solid top pairing D. He’s been regulated to the third pairing on Carolina, but that D is absolutely stacked.

Schultz is going to walk after next year. Trading for Hamilton solidifies our top four on the right side for Sid and Geno’s career and provides a player that brings a level of offense comparable to Letang which will help reduce Letang’s minutes as he inevitably declines.

They’d probably want Jake and not much else would satisfy them from our team. He wasn’t cheap to get for them.

 

[Gurglesons]

They’d probably want Jake and not much else would satisfy them from our team. He wasn’t cheap to get for them.

That’s fine. But this is why Rutherford is looking at bringing in an impact D.

 

[Dangles78]

Has anyone else noticed that Sheary is not on pace to reach 20 goals or 40 points, which is the condition for the Pens to pump the 2019 4th to a 3rd from Buffalo. I haven't watched any Sabres games this year but it looks like he lasted played with Rodriguez and Reinhart.

 

[Peat]

They’d probably want Jake and not much else would satisfy them from our team. He wasn’t cheap to get for them.

Who's giving them a Jake level talent for Hamilton though when everyone knows they've got a surplus that's forcing their hand a little and everyone knows they're really hurting for scoring help? And everyone suspects there's locker room pressures to get rid of Hamilton that'll follow him to his new team?

The situation reminds me of Subban in Montreal a bit and we all know how that worked out value wise.

And if they're not getting a Jake for him, what do they do?

 

[WayneSid9987]

No question JR wants to beef up his D or re-structure it to get back to that '16 style.
He sees the potential Olli-Schultz, MP-JJ pairings probably not cutting the mustard(believes they're ok but do they tilt the ice enough?) WITH the fact that Schultz will be leaving after next season on top of it.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Who's giving them a Jake level talent for Hamilton though when everyone knows they've got a surplus that's forcing their hand a little and everyone knows they're really hurting for scoring help? And everyone suspects there's locker room pressures to get rid of Hamilton that'll follow him to his new team?

The situation reminds me of Subban in Montreal a bit and we all know how that worked out value wise.

And if they're not getting a Jake for him, what do they do?

Certainly not us but they want young scoring forwards and he’s basically all we have in terms of trading for a good D man so we are a really bad fit. My point was it’s not going to happen which I’m glad about.

 

[The Old Master]

No question JR wants to beef up his D or re-structure it to get back to that '16 style.
He sees the potential Olli-Schultz, MP-JJ pairings probably not cutting the mustard WITH the fact that Schultz will be leaving after next season on top of it.

it also could be what's available now as apposed to what will be available.

 

[Peat]

Certainly not us but they want young scoring forwards and he’s basically all we have in terms of trading for a good D man so we are a really bad fit. My point was it’s not going to happen which I’m glad about.

And my point is there's a good chance they're not getting what they want so maybe it does happen.

If it was as open and shut as

"Hi, this is JR, what do you want for Hamilton?"
"Guentzel or nothing"
"kthnxbai"

Then it wouldn't have made Friedman's column to begin with. Clearly there's something more here.

 

[Gurglesons]

Has anyone else noticed that Sheary is not on pace to reach 20 goals or 40 points, which is the condition for the Pens to pump the 2019 4th to a 3rd from Buffalo. I haven't watched any Sabres games this year but it looks like he lasted played with Rodriguez and Reinhart.

Their depth is kind of a wreck, so not surprised. Still on pace for 33 pts, I could see him pumping in 20 goals. Still not a fan of that trade and what we used the cap for.