Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

[ColePens]

I'll add to the OP shortly

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[Gurglesons]

If you view Brassard as a 4th liner as his usage tends to be here are we disappointed with his production?

 

[Tom Hanks]

If you view Brassard as a 4th liner as his usage tends to be here are we disappointed with his production?

Why are his minutes dropping? It’s not because he’s playing well that’s for sure.

 

[EightyOne]

Brassard isn't costing games.

That's my positive take.

 

[Gurglesons]

Why are his minutes dropping? It’s not because he’s playing well that’s for sure.

They are dropping Kessel and Pearson’s minutes as well.

 

[Peat]

If you view Brassard as a 4th liner as his usage tends to be here are we disappointed with his production?

Brassard's ATOI at 5v5 of 13:13 is 69th best among centres (and Natural Stat Trick are pretty ropey about who's a centre) in the NHL this season. That's not a 4th liner. Its dropped to 12:10 over the 7 game streak, but that's still probably sorta 3rd line once you deduct the fake centres - Bonino had an ATOI of 12:01 through the 16-17 season.

 

[Gurglesons]

Brassard's ATOI at 5v5 of 13:13 is 69th best among centres (and Natural Stat Trick are pretty ropey about who's a centre) in the NHL this season. That's not a 4th liner. Its dropped to 12:10 over the 7 game streak, but that's still probably sorta 3rd line once you deduct the fake centres - Bonino had an ATOI of 12:01 through the 16-17 season.

Hm. Those numbers seem off to me.

 

[Tom Hanks]

They are dropping Kessel and Pearson’s minutes as well.

Not to his extent but that line is getting outchanced heavily in he 59 minutes they have been together.

Scoring chances for: 14 (high danger 7)
Scoring chances agt: 38 ((high danger 14)

 

[Gurglesons]

Not to his extent but that line is getting outchanced heavily in he 59 minutes they have been together.

Scoring chances for: 14 (high danger 7)
Scoring chances agt: 38 ((high danger 14)

Not really surprised. The insistence on running out third best player on the third line is just bizarre especially when he’s killed it with Sid so far this year.

I guess when you look around the league stacking your top line is just something you don’t see though..

 

[Peat]

Hm. Those numbers seem off to me.

NHL.com gives his ES ATOI (my previous numbers were 5v5 from NST) as 13:50 for the season and 12:40 for the last 8 (guessing at dates, feeling too lazy to be super accurate).

 

[Tom Hanks]

Not really surprised. The insistence on running out third best player on the third line is just bizarre especially when he’s killed it with Sid so far this year.

I guess when you look around the league stacking your top line is just something you don’t see though..

Simon or Rust won’t produce what Phil can on the 3rd line. I think we’d score less overall. Also if he’s on the 3rd line the other team really needs to pay attention to match ups so it’s advantageous to create a 3rd line that works for Phil

 

[The Old Master]

I guess when you look around the league stacking your top line is just something you don’t see though..

they play with only one puck. much easer to fill in with lesser supporting players.

 

[Riptide]

@Tender Rip

People talk about the drop-off from Brassard to Sheahan at 3C.. it might be there, granted, we just haven’t seen it.

It should be there. And it should be fairly obvious. But like you said, we just haven't seen it. Or rather we haven't seen the difference between this version of Brassard and what last year's version of Sheahan gave us. We would need some time/games to see if Sheahan/Kessel can still provide what they were last season.

Now, do it anyway and get Malkin’s LW with Brassard as the principal return. You get a hopefully clearly improved second line, and you get Simon to utilize elsewhere.

C-depth remains, with Cully, Grant and Blueger. It would be different if there was just a hint of the HBK magic - but there hasn’t been. With that in mind I’d be much more about making sure Geno is happy.
If anything - we are not overplaying Sid or Geno anymore, and we can give both those guys the odd third line shift with Kessel when its crunch/playoff time.

As big of a Sheahan fan as I am, I would be hesitant to move Brassard without seeing Sheahan have some sort of success as the 3c. I'd actually just try Brassard on Malkin's wing for a week or two while we let Sheahan test drive the 3c role. At least then we'd still have some options before committing to any course of action - because as long as Brassard is here we have options. He is a 2c and he will have value around the league, and we shouldn't move him until we know if we need a 3c or can move him for a PMD upgrade or a quality winger.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

If you view Brassard as a 4th liner as his usage tends to be here are we disappointed with his production?

If you look Brassard is averaging 0:30 seconds of average ice time and actually averaging more 5v5 time. Though its closer recently.

 

[ColePens]

Brassard isn't costing games.

That's my positive take.

Actually very good point. I do feel like he COULD be a difference in winning or losing a series, though. If he played the way we know, that's a possible series game changer. If he plays like we've seen, we will lose that depth battle and will need heroics from Murray.

 

[Riptide]

@molon labe

Sully's pet project (which is fine with me so long as ZAR doesn't go full blown Kunitz)

Reese has actually been pretty good over the last 3 weeks or so. Better since getting a promotion to Crosby's wing when Rust was out, but in general over the last few weeks he's been an NHLer. Still has a ways to go to being a good one (even a good depth one), but he's much improved over the version that we first saw this fall - to the point that he's actually an asset to the team.

 

[Riptide]

@EightyOne

But I know @ColePens didn't pay $3.54 s gallon for fuel this morning like me.

Come to Canada. I pay somewhere between 4.75/5.50 a gallon USD for gas (it's been a while since I've done the conversion).

 

[Riptide]

@pixiesfanyo

Slightly less minutes?

During the win streak Brassard has been playing between 11-13 minutes most games. He’s being used as a 4th liner.

Over the last 7 games he's averaged 13:54 TOI. Looking at the individual games, he's only played 1 game where he averaged less than 12 minutes (11:19 vs CAR) and only 2 games where he played more than 14 minutes (14:46 vs WSH, 16:25 vs STL). The other 4 games he's been a 3rd liner getting 3rd line minutes in the 13:31-13:59 range.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

I just feel like Brassard is one of those guys who behind a Crosby/Malkin doesn't feel motivated to be the guy to make plays, etc. Everywhere else he's had a much larger responsibility and the eyes have been on him to produce because he's been a 1C/2C everywhere else he's been. He looks like he's either coasting or not a good fit in our system or both. The bigger issue with him is when he's not scoring, he brings nothing to the table as far as a positive to the team. Staal/Sutter/Bonino were all stud PKers and their lack of offensive production could be easily overlooked for the PK/defensive impacts they made for the team. Brassard basically does jack shit when he's not getting scoring chances/offensive zone TOI.

The only benefit I can see Brassard bring is if Crosby/Malkin get injured and he's inserted into one of the top 2 lines. Maybe his ass will be motivated to play like he used to. Now he looks like he's a fat cat on easy street just coasting along. For the cost to get him and his cap hit, his positive impact on the team just isn't there for me. I'd rather we swap him for someone else who is looking for a 2C and is willing to give us a good 3C.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Not really surprised. The insistence on running out third best player on the third line is just bizarre especially when he’s killed it with Sid so far this year.

I guess when you look around the league stacking your top line is just something you don’t see though..

The thing is, we do have options we haven't tried. To my dying day I'll never understand why Sullivan insists on playing Rust on RW with this roster.

Who's our most skilled and most defensively suspect wing?

Kessel.

Who's our best defensive winger who could play a complementary role on a scoring line?

Rust.

God forbid they play together. Whether it's with Brassard or Malkin, there's no good reason not to try it... especially with the middle six in the state it's in.

 

[Riptide]

Not really surprised. The insistence on running out third best player on the third line is just bizarre especially when he’s killed it with Sid so far this year.

I guess when you look around the league stacking your top line is just something you don’t see though..

We can't just be a one line team. Putting Guentzel and Kessel with Crosby is overkill. Our objective is to win hockey games, and while it's possible that we can win with that line scoring 2-3 goals a game, we're probably better off having another line help out with the offense. And given how Kessel and Malkin have played so far this season (at least recently), putting him there probably doesn't do all that much for us.

 

[Riptide]

The thing is, we do have options we haven't tried. To my dying day I'll never understand why Sullivan insists on playing Rust on RW with this roster.

Who's our most skilled and most defensively suspect wing?

Kessel.

Who's our best defensive winger who could play a complementary role on a scoring line?

Rust.

God forbid they play together. Whether it's with Brassard or Malkin, there's no good reason not to try it... especially with the middle six in the state it's in.

Probably has something to do with the fact that in the very limited time they have played together this season, they were absolutely destroyed on the ice. Getting outshot 3-13 doesn't exactly give the coach a lot of confidence in giving you more chances if there's other options.

 

[Gurglesons]

We can't just be a one line team. Putting Guentzel and Kessel with Crosby is overkill. Our objective is to win hockey games, and while it's possible that we can win with that line scoring 2-3 goals a game, we're probably better off having another line help out with the offense. And given how Kessel and Malkin have played so far this season (at least recently), putting him there probably doesn't do all that much for us.

I don’t see how having Simon, Rust, Hornqvist, and Pearson on L2 and L3 three of who are on a 35+ pace makes us a one line team.

Not to mention Malkin and Brassard.

 

[Riptide]

I don’t see how having Simon, Rust, Hornqvist, and Pearson on L2 and L3 three of who are on a 35+ pace makes us a one line team.

Not to mention Malkin and Brassard.

The effectiveness of a Malkin line without much for skill on it is going to really hamper his production. We have years of experience/data telling us this. The exception would be in 2015/16 when the HBK line was on fire (and out producing Malkin's line by a good 30%), and their ability to force coaches to choose between covering Malkin or HBK. New York and Washington choose to cover Malkin. Tampa and San Jose chose to cover HBK. It never mattered because the other line produced.

But one doesn't have to go all that far back to see teams where the wingers were not a threat at all to make a play, and teams just covered the hell out of Malkin. Now I'm a big fan of Hornqvist... but he's not going to make plays and pick up much slack if Malkin is getting double teamed. And other than perhaps Simon (who's still hit and miss), the same goes for the rest of those guys. Hard workers with some skill, but not enough to regularly be someone who's going to make a play in the tight coverage we see in the POs.

The only exception to this is perhaps if we have a 3rd line that is a major threat to score. Then at least one of Crosby/Malkin/Kessel will be getting easier matchup's and a little more time and space that can hopefully be exploited and hopefully translate into more sustainable offense overall.

I get that HBK was a unicorn that we'll likely never see again. I'm okay with that. But that doesn't mean I want to see something akin to what we had last playoffs where only Crosby's line was scoring - because that's not a good recipe for success.

 

[Gurglesons]

The effectiveness of a Malkin line without much for skill on it is going to really hamper his production. We have years of experience/data telling us this. The exception would be in 2015/16 when the HBK line was on fire (and out producing Malkin's line by a good 30%), and their ability to force coaches to choose between covering Malkin or HBK. New York and Washington choose to cover Malkin. Tampa and San Jose chose to cover HBK. It never mattered because the other line produced.

But one doesn't have to go all that far back to see teams where the wingers were not a threat at all to make a play, and teams just covered the hell out of Malkin. Now I'm a big fan of Hornqvist... but he's not going to make plays and pick up much slack if Malkin is getting double teamed. And other than perhaps Simon (who's still hit and miss), the same goes for the rest of those guys. Hard workers with some skill, but not enough to regularly be someone who's going to make a play in the tight coverage we see in the POs.

The only exception to this is perhaps if we have a 3rd line that is a major threat to score. Then at least one of Crosby/Malkin/Kessel will be getting easier matchup's and a little more time and space that can hopefully be exploited and hopefully translate into more sustainable offense overall.

I get that HBK was a unicorn that we'll likely never see again. I'm okay with that. But that doesn't mean I want to see something akin to what we had last playoffs where only Crosby's line was scoring - because that's not a good recipe for success.

Yet we won a cup with Malkin and Phil on the 2nd line?

Nearly every team in the league plays their best winger in the top six. This idea that we can’t to be successful is so dumb.