Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

[Riptide]

Yet we won a cup with Malkin and Phil on the 2nd line?

Nearly every team in the league plays their best winger in the top six. This idea that we can’t to be successful is so dumb.

Yup we did. However is that 2017 team really the blueprint to success that you want to try and follow? We had timely goals and managed to eek out a win. But when we look at the two teams, only one of them is a team that is likely to have sustained success. We got extremely lucky in 2017 - more so then just the general luck needed to win a championship. I'm good with that... but that doesn't mean I want to go back there if we don't have to.

Besides there's absolutely nothing preventing us from putting Kessel back with Malkin if it's not working or we need to change something. But these are frequently two players who as a whole are better when they're not together.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yup we did. However is that 2017 team really the blueprint to success that you want to try and follow? We had timely goals and managed to eek out a win. But when we look at the two teams, only one of them is a team that is likely to have sustained success. We got extremely lucky in 2017 - more so then just the general luck needed to win a championship. I'm good with that... but that doesn't mean I want to go back there if we don't have to.

Besides there's absolutely nothing preventing us from putting Kessel back with Malkin if it's not working or we need to change something. But these are frequently two players who as a whole are better when they're not together.

I just don’t see the issue with a line up of say

Guentzel - Crosby - Kessel
Pearson - Malkin - Rust
Simon - Brassard - Hornqvist

And I don’t think the forwards were the issue in 2017 tbh.

 

[Peat]

Yet we won a cup with Malkin and Phil on the 2nd line?

Nearly every team in the league plays their best winger in the top six. This idea that we can’t to be successful is so dumb.

Guentzel's already in there though.

 

[Gurglesons]

Guentzel's already in there though.

Zing. I was going to make this joke as well.

 

[Shady Machine]

The effectiveness of a Malkin line without much for skill on it is going to really hamper his production. We have years of experience/data telling us this. The exception would be in 2015/16 when the HBK line was on fire (and out producing Malkin's line by a good 30%), and their ability to force coaches to choose between covering Malkin or HBK. New York and Washington choose to cover Malkin. Tampa and San Jose chose to cover HBK. It never mattered because the other line produced.

But one doesn't have to go all that far back to see teams where the wingers were not a threat at all to make a play, and teams just covered the hell out of Malkin. Now I'm a big fan of Hornqvist... but he's not going to make plays and pick up much slack if Malkin is getting double teamed. And other than perhaps Simon (who's still hit and miss), the same goes for the rest of those guys. Hard workers with some skill, but not enough to regularly be someone who's going to make a play in the tight coverage we see in the POs.

The only exception to this is perhaps if we have a 3rd line that is a major threat to score. Then at least one of Crosby/Malkin/Kessel will be getting easier matchup's and a little more time and space that can hopefully be exploited and hopefully translate into more sustainable offense overall.

I get that HBK was a unicorn that we'll likely never see again. I'm okay with that. But that doesn't mean I want to see something akin to what we had last playoffs where only Crosby's line was scoring - because that's not a good recipe for success.

Can you explain this post to me? You are arguing that Malkin without skill isn't good and that Hornqvist isn't picking up slack if Malkin is double teamed, but are then arguing you don't want Malkin with skill (Kessel).

How do I reconcile the 2?

 

[Peat]

Can you explain this post to me? You are arguing that Malkin without skill isn't good and that Hornqvist isn't picking up slack if Malkin is double teamed, but are then arguing you don't want Malkin with skill (Kessel).

How do I reconcile the 2?

The knowledge that more than skill alone is needed for a good Malkin line and that Kessel kinda compromises that? And that we've got other skill players here than Kessel?

Zing. I was going to make this joke as well.

Tbh... I said it as a joke, but its not really. At 5v5, Guentzel is flat out better.

 

[Shady Machine]

The knowledge that more than skill alone is needed for a good Malkin line and that Kessel kinda compromises that? And that we've got other skill players here than Kessel?

Is that what was said? I didn't get that at all from that post.

For what it's worth, I don't disagree that Kessel on Line 3 makes you a better team if you can find some chemistry and a L2 that works with Malkin.

Just thought the post seemed contradictory, but totally possible I'm just missing it.

What's funny right now about the roster is that Sid seems to have more options for wingers that work than Geno. Sid has worked well with Jake, Simon, Horny, Rust (to some extent when paired with Jake), and Kessel when it's been done.

I can't find a 3some I really like for Geno.

 

[Peat]

Is that what was said? I didn't get that at all from that post.

For what it's worth, I don't disagree that Kessel on Line 3 makes you a better team if you can find some chemistry and a L2 that works with Malkin.

Just thought the post seemed contradictory, but totally possible I'm just missing it.

What's funny right now about the roster is that Sid seems to have more options for wingers that work than Geno. Sid has worked well with Jake, Simon, Horny, Rust (to some extent when paired with Jake), and Kessel when it's been done.

I can't find a 3some I really like for Geno.

Not what was said, but I think reasonable assumptions of the unsaid thought process behind it.

In any case... I can think of lots of lines I like for Geno. Trouble is most of them involve Jake. Otherwise... yeah. Lots of lines with something to like, but few I don't have reservations about, except for an in form Pearson-Rust. I'd really like to get us a winger tailor made for Geno.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I just don’t see the issue with a line up of say

Guentzel - Crosby - Kessel
Pearson - Malkin - Rust
Simon - Brassard - Hornqvist

And I don’t think the forwards were the issue in 2017 tbh.

The issue is that there's precious little skill on the wing in that middle six.

Malkin might overcome it, despite having a lot of trouble doing so lately. We know Brassard can't.

 

[Shady Machine]

Not what was said, but I think reasonable assumptions of the unsaid thought process behind it.

In any case... I can think of lots of lines I like for Geno. Trouble is most of them involve Jake. Otherwise... yeah. Lots of lines with something to like, but few I don't have reservations about, except for an in form Pearson-Rust. I'd really like to get us a winger tailor made for Geno.

Good point on Pearson-Rust. I would be interested to see this for a bit:

Jake-Sid-Hornqvist
Pearson-Malkin-Rust
Simon-Brass-Kessel
Cullen-Sheahan-Aston Reese

 

[Shady Machine]

The issue is that there's precious little skill on the wing in that middle six.

Malkin might overcome it, despite having a lot of trouble doing so lately. We know Brassard can't.

I guess it depends what is defined as skill. Pearson and Rust are both statistically top 6 wingers and I could see that combo working out like Hagelin-Horny with more skill and finish.

Simon is skilled and Horny is a madman. If Brass can't make that work on a 3rd line, then he isn't good enough.

Personally I'd like another winger upgrade, but with the quality of our centers, I think that should be enough winger talent to be Cup contenders if people play to potential.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

@Tender Rip


It should be there. And it should be fairly obvious. But like you said, we just haven't seen it. Or rather we haven't seen the difference between this version of Brassard and what last year's version of Sheahan gave us. We would need some time/games to see if Sheahan/Kessel can still provide what they were last season.



As big of a Sheahan fan as I am, I would be hesitant to move Brassard without seeing Sheahan have some sort of success as the 3c. I'd actually just try Brassard on Malkin's wing for a week or two while we let Sheahan test drive the 3c role. At least then we'd still have some options before committing to any course of action - because as long as Brassard is here we have options. He is a 2c and he will have value around the league, and we shouldn't move him until we know if we need a 3c or can move him for a PMD upgrade or a quality winger.

This is the right path now IMO, see if Sheahan and Phil can click, and see if Brass can play LW with Geno and be a positive.

In another Sheahan note, buried in a misc type article on DK's site, it said Sheahan turned down a multiple year deal with the Pens this summer, and is betting on himself to cash in as a UFA. Not sure how that all pans out, but it's not ideal for us. Also not sure who is giving Sheahan a 3mx5 or whatever deal he wants, I'd have to think we offered him 2.2-2.5 x 3 or so.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I guess it depends what is defined as skill. Pearson and Rust are both statistically top 6 wingers and I could see that combo working out like Hagelin-Horny with more skill and finish.

Simon is skilled and Horny is a madman. If Brass can't make that work on a 3rd line, then he isn't good enough.

They're statistically complementary top 6 wingers whose numbers have been bolstered by stints with very talented center/wing combos that they won't have the benefit of in the line-ups people are proposing. Pearson and Rust might have more skill and finish than Hags and Horny but they'd also have more tunnel vision and less gumption, and Malkin's track record with those two was spotty to begin with.

Brassard clearly needs more to work with than Simon and Horny. Neither is a good skater and Simon's skill is of the complementary variety, not the "most skilled winger on the line" variety. Brass wouldn't be able to make that line work and may need to be upgraded on regardless, but considering Malkin's struggled to work with those two that's hardly a Brassard-exclusive problem.

Rather than default to Kessel on a 1st line that clearly doesn't need his help, we should be doing everything to make Kessel on a non-Crosby line viable.

 

[sauce66871]

Looking at the Brassard issue from a different prespective, you could kind of say he is "over-qualified" for the position. Not that the acquisition was not completely worth it, anyone would add him given the chance.

On the last thread, Faksa seemed to fit the position perfectly. Not sure he would be available, or the Pens could even offer the right pieces. Looking through different stat categories though, finding the right player for the job seems to obviously be the key for any long term success.

The HBK idea is dead and gone, but what came to mind, was at the time they acquired Bonino, it was a pretty "under the radar" move to most, so with that thinking, even though some of these teams are contenders, could any of these guys be a really good fit? (They're listed from most unrealistic to realistic).

Adam Lowry
Radek Faksa
Colton Sissons
Luke Glendening

 

[Gurglesons]

Looking at the Brassard issue from a different prespective, you could kind of say he is "over-qualified" for the position. Not that the acquisition was not completely worth it, anyone would add him given the chance.

On the last thread, Faksa seemed to fit the position perfectly. Not sure he would be available, or the Pens could even offer the right pieces. Looking through different stat categories though, finding the right player for the job seems to obviously be the key for any long term success.

The HBK idea is dead and gone, but what came to mind, was at the time they acquired Bonino, it was a pretty "under the radar" move to most, so with that thinking, even though some of these teams are contenders, could any of these guys be a really good fit? (They're listed from most unrealistic to realistic).

Adam Lowry
Radek Faksa
Colton Sissons
Luke Glendening

Sissons and Glendening maybe.

See no reason Nash moves us Sissons and Glendening’s contract blows.

 

[Shady Machine]

This is the right path now IMO, see if Sheahan and Phil can click, and see if Brass can play LW with Geno and be a positive.

In another Sheahan note, buried in a misc type article on DK's site, it said Sheahan turned down a multiple year deal with the Pens this summer, and is betting on himself to cash in as a UFA. Not sure how that all pans out, but it's not ideal for us. Also not sure who is giving Sheahan a 3mx5 or whatever deal he wants, I'd have to think we offered him 2.2-2.5 x 3 or so.

If Sheahan wants 3MM+ with several years term, see ya!

 

[Peat]

I guess it depends what is defined as skill. Pearson and Rust are both statistically top 6 wingers and I could see that combo working out like Hagelin-Horny with more skill and finish.

It reminds me a lot of Kunitz-Malkin-Rust in potential, which was a ridiculous brute of a line (strange it wasn't tried more personally). Only Pearson's more skillful than the corpse of Kunitz, and Rust I think is better now than he was then.

And of course, HMH. It's not worked everytime, but hardnosed forward-Malkin-speedster has worked more often than not in the time I've been a Pens fan.

If Sheahan wants 3MM+ with several years term, see ya!

I think he has blown that chance about as thoroughly as possible. He's an idiot if this is true.

 

[Shady Machine]

They're statistically complementary top 6 wingers whose numbers have been bolstered by stints with very talented center/wing combos that they won't have the benefit of in the line-ups people are proposing. Pearson and Rust might have more skill and finish than Hags and Horny but they'd also have more tunnel vision and less gumption, and Malkin's track record with those two was spotty to begin with.

Brassard clearly needs more to work with than Simon and Horny. Neither is a good skater and Simon's skill is of the complementary variety, not the "most skilled winger on the line" variety. Brass wouldn't be able to make that line work and may need to be upgraded on regardless, but considering Malkin's struggled to work with those two that's hardly a Brassard-exclusive problem.

Rather than default to Kessel on a 1st line that clearly doesn't need his help, we should be doing everything to make Kessel on a non-Crosby line viable.

My general point is that we have enough skill in the top 9 with our centers to be Cup contenders. Switch around the lines to find chemistry.

I think you have a pretty narrow view of primary vs complimentary. When you have the talent of centers we have and the current cap structure, it's nearly impossible to have as many "primary" wingers as you want.

 

[Gurglesons]

My general point is that we have enough skill in the top 9 with our centers to be Cup contenders. Switch around the lines to find chemistry.

I think you have a pretty narrow view of primary vs complimentary. When you have the talent of centers we have and the current cap structure, it's nearly impossible to have as many "primary" wingers as you want.

I don’t know in what world Rust or Hornqvist are “complimentary”.

Probably the same world where AHL production predicts success in the NHL.

 

[Gurglesons]

It reminds me a lot of Kunitz-Malkin-Rust in potential, which was a ridiculous brute of a line (strange it wasn't tried more personally). Only Pearson's more skillful than the corpse of Kunitz, and Rust I think is better now than he was then.

And of course, HMH. It's not worked everytime, but hardnosed forward-Malkin-speedster has worked more often than not in the time I've been a Pens fan.



I think he has blown that chance about as thoroughly as possible. He's an idiot if this is true.

Yeah, I really don’t get why Sullivan hasn’t used Pearson - Malkin - Rust more it seems like a tailored Mike Sullivan possession / two way monster.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

My general point is that we have enough skill in the top 9 with our centers to be Cup contenders. Switch around the lines to find chemistry.

I think you have a pretty narrow view of primary vs complimentary. When you have the talent of centers we have and the current cap structure, it's nearly impossible to have as many "primary" wingers as you want.

Not if we have Kessel on the top line, IMO. That depletes the skill for the middle six much too far, especially with Malkin and especially Brassard's struggles. It's a non-starter for longer than short stints if we want to be more than a one-line team.

If Kessel's on line 2 or 3, we have enough skill in the top 9 if we can find the right combo for Brassard. So far we haven't hit on that, and the prospects for it are getting slimmer by the game.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don’t know in what world Rust or Hornqvist are “complimentary”.

Probably the same world where AHL production predicts success in the NHL.

It's simple. You don't want either being the most skilled winger on a scoring line.

Guentzel and Kessel are primary scoring threats. Hornqvist and Rust are not.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's simple. You don't want either being the most skilled winger on a scoring line.

Guentzel and Kessel are primary scoring threats. Hornqvist and Rust are not.

Patric Hornqvist has scored 20 goals every year he’s been in the league when playing the majority of a healthy season. 10+ at EV every year.

He’s the definition of a primary scoring threat. Just because he doesn’t do it by taking clear shots every time doesn’t mean jack.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, I really don’t get why Sullivan hasn’t used Pearson - Malkin - Rust more it seems like a tailored Mike Sullivan possession / two way monster.

One part it involves one of Kessel/Horny on Sid's line, one part of Rust only becoming part of the solution again after going back with Sid and then being so hot nobody would move him from there.

Looks like it got tried vs the Avalanche and dominated possession.

 

[Gurglesons]

One part it involves one of Kessel/Horny on Sid's line, one part of Rust only becoming part of the solution again after going back with Sid and then being so hot nobody would move him from there.

Looks like it got tried vs the Avalanche and dominated possession.

That was the Sid hatty game right?

Also, technically it doesn’t..

Jake - Sid - Simon
Pearson - Malkin - Rust
ZAR - Brassard - Kessel
Sheahan - Cullen - Hornqvist

Issue is that third line.